New road hazard - fancy road markings at roundabouts

Saw this for the first time in Chelmsford today. Utterly unsafe for
cyclists.

The entry lane divides into two lanes separated by no-go cross hatches.
The left lane curves left to take the outside edge of the roundabout and
then the first left exit - all the time being separated from the rest of
the roundabout by the no-go markings. Then _it continues for a while_
so the exit lane is still split, eventually merging into two lanes with
a single dash down the middle.

I have seen lesser versions of this where
(a) speeds are lower due to sharp curvature
(b) there is a left lane and _two_ 'proper' ones.


I have put a diagram on the web at
http://www.eminent.demon.co.uk/killer.htm



APPROACH - FIRSTLY UNSAFE
Because the normal position for a cyclist approaching the roundabout is
middle of lane 1 if there are two entrance lanes. (Regardless of going
left or on/right.) With this arrangement the cyclist going on/right has
to move fully into the right lane (which might be choked) way ahead of
the roundabout. (DANGER 1) then quite likely has faster traffic passing
on the nearside with quite a speed difference possible (DANGER 2) or the
cyclist may elect to cycle in the fast moving lane 1 and illegally
squeeze into slow moving lane 2 causing confusion (DANGER 3) and waiting
in a no-man's land (DANGER 4) . This last manoeuvre will be quite
common where there hasn't been an opportunity to move right safely that
is supposing that cyclist has prior knowledge of how the road junction
is supposed to work.

JOIN- SECONDLY UNSAFE
Whereas previously a cyclist in lane 1 was protected by traffic also
waiting to join in lane 2, now they have no choice but to tackle joining
on their own. (DANGER 5)

EXIT - THIRDLY LETHAL
When a cyclist exits the roundabout they find themselves in the outside
lane being overtaken by faster traffic on the inside. (DANGER 6) The
longer the separated section the worse the problem. The absence of a
give way takes all protection away from them.



I'll be really hammering this one so anyone who has more information,
experience or wants to make common cause - please feel free to get in
touch.




--
PETER FOX Not the same since the statuette business went bust

www.eminent.demon.co.uk/wcc.htm Witham Cycling Campaign
www.eminent.demon.co.uk/rides East Anglian Pub cycle rides

"Peter Fox" wrote in
message ...
Saw this for the first time in Chelmsford today. Utterly unsafe for
cyclists.


Firstly, there is no such thing as a dangerous road.

Secondly:
Because the normal position for a cyclist approaching the roundabout is
middle of lane 1 if there are two entrance lanes. (Regardless of going left
or on/right.)

Where did you get this from? The highway code says

When taking the last exit or going full circle
a.. signal right and approach in the right-hand lane
b.. keep to the right on the roundabout until you need to change lanes to
exit the roundabout
c.. signal left after you have passed the exit before the one you want.



See http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/17.shtml#162. Note it's in the "Using the
road" section, which can be accessed from the Cylists section - and thus is
applicable to all vehicles.


TBH, I don't even think it's that badly designed. Now of course, other road
users behave in an inappropriate and dangerous manner, but you can't blame
the road for that.

However, I do doubt the necessity for such a scheme. What are the traffic
flows like?

Peter Fox wrote:


EXIT - THIRDLY LETHAL
When a cyclist exits the roundabout they find themselves in the outside
lane being overtaken by faster traffic on the inside. (DANGER 6) The
longer the separated section the worse the problem. The absence of a
give way takes all protection away from them.



There is one of these at the Chertsey exit on the M25. Since it is from
the slip road where cycling is obviously not allowed only the third case
applies.

I have never ridden it in the case where there was so much traffic comming
off the motorway to make it difficult to get back into the right line (the
lefthand one) but I strongly suspect that there are times when this would
be a nightmare. Hence I try and avoid that junction when on my bike.

There is also one near Brooklands which I do use semi regularly. Though my
direction means I get the exit problem again. Generally a motorist sees
your predicament and does the right thing, letting you merge left. Then
again it is only a 30mph zone so with some effort I can get fairly close to
matching their speeed, assuming they are not from Sm*th world.

Now I would not want to take my children near a junction like this on
anything other than the triplet.

For cyclists they are IMO horrible for precisely the reason planners will
like them, they make traffic flow more quickly.


I'll be really hammering this one so anyone who has more information,
experience or wants to make common cause - please feel free to get in
touch.






--
Chris dot Gerhard at btclick dot com.

"Peter Fox" wrote in
message ...

Saw this for the first time in Chelmsford today. Utterly unsafe for
cyclists....

I think some cyclists feel uneasy about traffic "undertaking" them as would
be the case in certain routes in your diagram.

The main solution to this is under no circumstances risk being stuck
*between* traffic lanes as you will end up with traffic then passing on both
sides without a lane of your own.

*Always* make sure you take control of your lane (centred in it, or
*slightly* left of centre) until such time as someone slows down to allow
you to move to the left hand lane, as I will agree that being stuck between
lanes yet not "owning" a lane is very dangerous.

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004, Peter Fox
wrote:

I'll be really hammering this one so anyone who has more information,
experience or wants to make common cause - please feel free to get in
touch.

I have something that may help, I've been intending to tidy it up and
post it anyway, since it may be useful when people want to lock horns
with highway engineers. It's not short.

Nag me in a day or two if it hasn't appeared here by then.

regards, Ian SMith
--
|\ /| no .sig
|o o|
|/ \|

"Peter Fox" wrote in
message ...
Saw this for the first time in Chelmsford today. Utterly unsafe for
cyclists.


I see the diagram, but it's difficult to get an idea of how it would be in
use without knowing more about the widths of the roads and the general speed
and density of traffic around it


APPROACH - FIRSTLY UNSAFE
Because the normal position for a cyclist approaching the roundabout is
middle of lane 1 if there are two entrance lanes. (Regardless of going
left or on/right.)

Ok, I can see that

With this arrangement the cyclist going on/right has
to move fully into the right lane (which might be choked) way
ahead of the roundabout.

If the cyclist is going straight on, why wouldn't s/he stay in lane 1?
Surely you only need to move into lane 2 if you're going right?


(DANGER 1) then quite likely has faster traffic passing
on the nearside with quite a speed difference possible
(DANGER 2)

Yes, for the right-turning cyclist but if they're intending to stay right
then the only problem from traffic on the left is if it suddenly decides it
doesn't want to be on the left and cuts across to the right?

or the
cyclist may elect to cycle in the fast moving lane 1 and illegally
squeeze into slow moving lane 2 causing confusion (DANGER 3) and waiting
in a no-man's land (DANGER 4) . This last manoeuvre will be quite
common where there hasn't been an opportunity to move right safely that
is supposing that cyclist has prior knowledge of how the road junction
is supposed to work.

Yes, I see that could happen


JOIN- SECONDLY UNSAFE
Whereas previously a cyclist in lane 1 was protected by traffic also
waiting to join in lane 2, now they have no choice but to tackle joining
on their own. (DANGER 5)


I can see that too but they still have the possibility of being on the
inside of traffic in lane 2

EXIT - THIRDLY LETHAL
When a cyclist exits the roundabout they find themselves in the outside
lane being overtaken by faster traffic on the inside. (DANGER 6)

Surely this is only for cyclists approaching from the other side of the
roundabout who are turning right from the road on the right of your diagram,
not for those that have gone straight on in the two lane system? Cyclists
going straight on would just stay in lane 1 wouldn't they?

The
longer the separated section the worse the problem. The absence of a
give way takes all protection away from them.


That's true. If this is on a fast A road I wouldn't like it. But again, it
seems to be more of a problem for the cyclist coming from the right than one
that was going straight on.


I'll be really hammering this one so anyone who has more information,
experience or wants to make common cause - please feel free to get in
touch.


Rich

In article ,
says...
Saw this for the first time in Chelmsford today. Utterly unsafe for
cyclists.


Firstly, there is no such thing as a dangerous road.

Then you haven't seen enough of them! :-(

"marc" marccdimspamremovedimspamto wrote in
message .. .
In article ,
says...
Saw this for the first time in Chelmsford today. Utterly unsafe for
cyclists.


Firstly, there is no such thing as a dangerous road.

Then you haven't seen enough of them! :-(

Well I'm sorry, but I have to disagree. I do know of plenty of roads with
hazards which require extra caution - but these are not dangerous if handled
properly, and I'm afraid that anyone who blames for road for accidents is
merely shifting the blame from themselves (or least others).

Peter Fox posted ...

APPROACH - FIRSTLY UNSAFE
Because the normal position for a cyclist approaching the roundabout
is middle of lane 1 if there are two entrance lanes. (Regardless of
going left or on/right.) With this arrangement the cyclist going
on/right has to move fully into the right lane (which might be
choked) way ahead of the roundabout.

Surely if anyone is going straight on then the left lane should be OK to
stay in. There appears to be no reason to move over to the right lane.

(DANGER 1) then quite likely
has faster traffic passing on the nearside with quite a speed
difference possible

So, much like any other roundabout, but with a further traffic separation
(the hatched boxes) between left lane and right lane traffic, therefore
safer.

(DANGER 2) or the cyclist may elect to cycle in
the fast moving lane 1 and illegally squeeze into slow moving lane 2
causing confusion

Why would anyone do this ?

(DANGER 3) and waiting in a no-man's land (DANGER
4) . This last manoeuvre will be quite common where there hasn't
been an opportunity to move right safely that is supposing that
cyclist has prior knowledge of how the road junction is supposed to
work.

Oh come on .. I know of few new junctions that aren't signed well in advance
nowadays .. If you can't read road markings and signage, then you shouldn't
be on the road, whatever conveyance you choose.

JOIN- SECONDLY UNSAFE
Whereas previously a cyclist in lane 1 was protected by traffic also
waiting to join in lane 2, now they have no choice but to tackle
joining on their own. (DANGER 5)

I don't understand this point.

EXIT - THIRDLY LETHAL
When a cyclist exits the roundabout they find themselves in the
outside lane being overtaken by faster traffic on the inside.
(DANGER 6) The longer the separated section the worse the problem.
The absence of a give way takes all protection away from them.

From what you've described that's about the only 'real' danger to cyclists I
can see .. but is just the same at almost any junction of an A-road these
days, simply without a Give Way, which many motorists ignore anyway at this
kind of merge/junction. Note I'm not condoning this, just observing. With
due regard to personal safety the junction seems perfectly safe to me, as a
cyclist and as a motorist.

I guess safety depends on amount of traffic, it's general speed and a host
of other factors. Personally I see very little that's wrong with this
junction, and in fact see it as a positive safety move to separate 'straight
on' traffic from having to negotiate the roundabout. There's a very similar
roundabout, though it's on a dual carriageway, in Doncaster near The
Dome/Asda and Racecourse and I haven't ever seen an accident there. That's
not to say there hasn't been any, I just don't know of any .. There are
many cycle paths nearby, for all directions that the roundabout serves,
though, many of which are quite excellent.

--
Paul

Peter Fox wrote:
Saw this for the first time in Chelmsford today. Utterly unsafe for
cyclists.


Just follow Cyclecraft advice on multilane roundabouts. Its easy really.
Going left stay in the left lane in the primary position until you have
cleared the roundabout. If turning right stay in the primary position in the
right hand land until you have cleared the left exit. It may be inconvenient
because you may need to wait in the line of traffic in the right lane but hey,
you don't have a right to cycle up the inside to save time and should only do
so if it is safe to do so. So be patient and wait your turn with the rest of
the traffic when they will have much less chance not to have noticed you are
there.

Tony