Thinking about having a SON,

On Mar 28, 2:06*pm, "Peter S." wrote:
On 28 Mar., 17:24, landotter wrote:

On Mar 28, 7:20 am, Tom Sherman °_°
Planet Bike or similar $25 LED battery light on a lowrider mount. I
see no reason to spend more to be seen in the city that's already
awash in lighting. Neither do my LBS owning friends who used to enjoy
the bragging rights of using trail lighting in the city but all of
whom have minimized to battery be-seen lighting.

Even if I had to choose between a free battery operated bike light or
a buy my own dynamo operated light system, I would choose buy a dynamo
operated light system every time. Dynamo operated headlights are just
too convenient and handy. There isn't any logistical problems, like
babysitting battery chargers, or wasting time reading up on Lipo,
Lithium, Nimh, LSD, NiZn, Lit-ion etc battery technology, should these
batteries be fully discharged between recharges or does it damage
them? Will this battery pack short circuit and burn down my house
because I dropped them on the floor (*cough*Magicshine*cough*). No
fumbling with light mounts with gloves on, or get unpredictable short
runtimes in the winter because of the cold. No stuffing lights in the
pockets when shopping or on a cafe, no planning whether you might need
the light on next ride or not, no missing lights on the way home just
because you choose to hang out an hour more than planned. *With dynamo
lights you just jump on you bike an go.

And when you stop to lock up you have to worry excessively about a
very expensive front wheel. It makes sense in Copenhagen and
Gothenburg or even wintertime further north. A 2-3 AA LED be seen
light can be mounted semi-permanently to any bike and needs only 50c
worth of batteries every three months--and you don't need to carry a
pound of cable around to secure it.

landotter writes:

On Mar 28, 2:06Â*pm, "Peter S." wrote:
On 28 Mar., 17:24, landotter wrote:

On Mar 28, 7:20 am, Tom Sherman °_°
Planet Bike or similar $25 LED battery light on a lowrider mount. I
see no reason to spend more to be seen in the city that's already
awash in lighting. Neither do my LBS owning friends who used to enjoy
the bragging rights of using trail lighting in the city but all of
whom have minimized to battery be-seen lighting.

Even if I had to choose between a free battery operated bike light or
a buy my own dynamo operated light system, I would choose buy a dynamo
operated light system every time. Dynamo operated headlights are just
too convenient and handy. There isn't any logistical problems, like
babysitting battery chargers, or wasting time reading up on Lipo,
Lithium, Nimh, LSD, NiZn, Lit-ion etc battery technology, should these
batteries be fully discharged between recharges or does it damage
them? Will this battery pack short circuit and burn down my house
because I dropped them on the floor (*cough*Magicshine*cough*). No
fumbling with light mounts with gloves on, or get unpredictable short
runtimes in the winter because of the cold. No stuffing lights in the
pockets when shopping or on a cafe, no planning whether you might need
the light on next ride or not, no missing lights on the way home just
because you choose to hang out an hour more than planned. Â*With dynamo
lights you just jump on you bike an go.

And when you stop to lock up you have to worry excessively about a
very expensive front wheel. It makes sense in Copenhagen and
Gothenburg or even wintertime further north. A 2-3 AA LED be seen
light can be mounted semi-permanently to any bike and needs only 50c
worth of batteries every three months--and you don't need to carry a
pound of cable around to secure it.

No you dont. You lock the frame so that the front wheel can not be raised
to be removed.

On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:26:53 -0700 (PDT), landotter
wrote:

[---]

And when you stop to lock up you have to worry excessively about a
very expensive front wheel.

Only if you use a SON (Shimano hub dynamos are much less expensive,
and almost, if admittedly not quite as good) - and even then, only if
your local bike thieves know what it is and how much it is worth. I
doubt that most opportunistic thieves do.

On Mar 28, 1:20*pm, Tom Sherman °_°
wrote:
what LED headlight would be the best complement for an urban commuter?

I know that this has been discussed before, but the LED headlight market
is changing rapidly along with LED technology.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

If you really want a SON because all the big boys have one, go for it.
But the modern Shimano hub dynamo is as good for a quarter or a third
of the street price. The only possible exception is if you expect to
get 100k kilometres or miles or whatever, some impossible longevity,
out of your wheel before you rebuilt it, then the SON may last longer.
IIRC, the Shimano is said to be designed to last 40 thousand miles
(can't remember where I saw that because either number is irrelevant
to my sort of use). For the record, I have both the SON and several
types of Shimano hub dynamos and both are nicely built and finished,
fit and forget standard industrial parts. You have to be a truly heavy
user, or an engineer, before any difference justifying the price
differential will appear.

For a light you would be hard put to do better on your rural stretch
than BUMM's Cyo, and for the lit parts of your ride you should have
the nearfield model (it has R in the name) because it has a reflector.
I have both Cyo and don't find the speed model to light the road
further ahead than the nearfield model, whereas the additional
sidespill and the reflector on the nearfield model are both extremely
useful in practice.

I didn't even consider the Edelux and suchlike also recommended in
this thread because they intensify the beam among other ways by
narrowing it, and the Cyo R is as narrow near the bike as I think is
practicable. For a grapic illustration of what I am talking about see
the throw patterns in a real-life situation, a country bike dealer's
driveway, at Peter White's netsite; I found that one most useful
precisely because it is a practical evaluation with the site Phil Lee
recommended second on the list of useful light comparisons.

Cheaper lights, and more expensive lights with a round throw too, have
an advantage over even the exemplary Cyo in that they do light the
overhead, so between hedges and trees you get some very useful
indication of your own position on the road, whereas with the car-
pattern lights like the Cyo you might like me feel a bit detached,
more like the experience sitting inside a car, possibly a dangerous
mindset for someone on a bicycle.

Andre Jute
The rest is magic hidden in the hub.
For rare hub gear bikes, visit Jute on Bicycles at
http://www.audio-talk.co.uk/fiultra/...20CYCLING.html

On 28 Mar., 21:26, landotter wrote:
On Mar 28, 2:06 pm, "Peter S." wrote:

And when you stop to lock up you have to worry excessively about a
very expensive front wheel.

Not a problem at all. People steal bikes, not dynamo wheels nor
derailleurs. The average thief doesn't even have the knowledge to
recognize a hub dynamo. I park my bike in tough, crime ridden
neighborhoods full of junkies, but I never worry about my wheels or my
permanently attached lights.
Besides, my dynamo front wheel only cost around 30 to 40 euros more
than a regular front wheel in the same quality costs.

My rear wheel with an Ultegra hub cost more or less the same as my
dynamo front wheel, but I don't loose any sleep over that either, nor
would I say to other people; "don't buy Ultegra hubs; they are
expensive and you may worry excessively about them getting stolen!!!"

It makes sense in Copenhagen and
Gothenburg or even wintertime further north.

That is plainly wrong. Dynamo headlights make sense everywhere in the
world where you need bicycle lights. Besides, according to the link
below, the sun rises later and sets earlier in San Francisco today
than in Copenhagen:
http://www.sunrisesunset.com/

A 2-3 AA LED be seen
light can be mounted semi-permanently to any bike and needs only 50c
worth of batteries every three months

Cheap battery headlights still suck in every conceivable way, and
unless one rarely needs the light and is satisfied with a feeble
blinking light, then they usually don't have run times that last very
long.
Dynamo operated lights are just superior to battery operated lights
when it comes to commuting and utility biking. Not everyone can afford
the better hub generators and lights, and that is too bad. But it
doesn't make cheap battery operated lights anything else than a
cheaper but inferior solution.

--and you don't need to carry a
pound of cable around to secure it.

I would never dream of using a cable lock, they just don't work. I use
a solid Abus U-lock, but not to protect my front wheel or my rear
wheel but to protect my bike.

--
Regards

Peter S. wrote:

Cheap battery headlights still suck in every conceivable way, and
unless one rarely needs the light and is satisfied with a feeble
blinking light, then they usually don't have run times that last very
long.
Dynamo operated lights are just superior to battery operated lights
when it comes to commuting and utility biking. Not everyone can afford
the better hub generators and lights, and that is too bad. But it
doesn't make cheap battery operated lights anything else than a
cheaper but inferior solution.

Well, if you have only a bike or 2 to equip and ride at night a lot,
then the economics of a dynamo and bike specific light are fine,
particularly if you live in a part of the world where they're sold in
volume.

Battery lights have come a long way, and the Chinese are making them
very cheap. For an occasional night rider with a fleet of family bikes,
they're really much more practical. I like head mounted 3W LED lights
(3-AAA), good for an hour or more with rechargeables, I have 4 and use
them for lots of things besides biking.

Something like this: http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20763

It's junky and won't last long, but it'll certainly recover the $16
investment. Better LED's are coming along every year, anyway.

On 3/28/2010 4:09 PM, Andrew Price wrote:
On Sun, 28 Mar 2010 12:26:53 -0700 (PDT), landotter
wrote:

[---]

And when you stop to lock up you have to worry excessively about a
very expensive front wheel.

Only if you use a SON (Shimano hub dynamos are much less expensive,
and almost, if admittedly not quite as good) - and even then, only if
your local bike thieves know what it is and how much it is worth. I
doubt that most opportunistic thieves do.

Does anyone besides Schmidt [1] make a dynamo hub for small wheels?

[1] DaHon makes a narrow hub for their bikes, but it is apparently not
available for sale unless you get a bike with it.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

On 29 Mar., 00:15, Peter Cole wrote:

Well, if you have only a bike or 2 to equip and ride at night a lot,
then the economics of a dynamo and bike specific light are fine,
particularly if you live in a part of the world where they're sold in
volume.

It all depends on how you see things. I see my generator hub and
lights the same way as I see my saddle of choice (Brooks B-17), namely
as integrated part of my bike. Sure I could save some money by just
having one saddle and seat post and move them between my bikes, but I
rather not.
And sure, a bicycle with dynamo lights are more expensive than one
without; It is on the other hand also a much less useful bicycle. In
short, if I couldn't afford to put Brook B-17 saddles and hub
generators on all my bikes, then I had too many bikes, and the
solution would be to have fewer but more useful bikes.

Battery lights have come a long way, and the Chinese are making them
very cheap. For an occasional night rider with a fleet of family bikes,
they're really much more practical. I like head mounted 3W LED lights
(3-AAA), good for an hour or more with rechargeables, I have 4 and use
them for lots of things besides biking.

Something like this:http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.20763

It's junky and won't last long, but it'll certainly recover the $16
investment. Better LED's are coming along every year, anyway.

You can buy both cheap dynamo headlights and bottle generators, but
that is besides my point; my point is that cheap battery operated
light just aren't as good as hub dynamo light systems when it comes to
e.g. commuting. Also, cheap battery operated lights tend to be less
cheap in the long run because they often break down prematurely. I own
5 DX Extreme flash lights; they are fun and cheap, but three of them
must be considered as rather unreliable already, and I just discarded
my 1W headlamp because a substandard lid to the battery pack broke
off.
I want reliable light systems that just work every time I need them,
so to me at least, DX Extreme lights doesn't fit that requirement.


--
Regards

Peter S. wrote:
On 28 Mar., 17:24, landotter wrote:
On Mar 28, 7:20 am, Tom Sherman °_°
Planet Bike or similar $25 LED battery light on a lowrider mount. I
see no reason to spend more to be seen in the city that's already
awash in lighting. Neither do my LBS owning friends who used to enjoy
the bragging rights of using trail lighting in the city but all of
whom have minimized to battery be-seen lighting.

Even if I had to choose between a free battery operated bike light or
a buy my own dynamo operated light system, I would choose buy a dynamo
operated light system every time. Dynamo operated headlights are just
too convenient and handy. There isn't any logistical problems, like
babysitting battery chargers, or wasting time reading up on Lipo,
Lithium, Nimh, LSD, NiZn, Lit-ion etc battery technology, should these
batteries be fully discharged between recharges or does it damage
them? Will this battery pack short circuit and burn down my house
because I dropped them on the floor (*cough*Magicshine*cough*). No
fumbling with light mounts with gloves on, or get unpredictable short
runtimes in the winter because of the cold. No stuffing lights in the
pockets when shopping or on a cafe, no planning whether you might need
the light on next ride or not, no missing lights on the way home just
because you choose to hang out an hour more than planned. With dynamo
lights you just jump on you bike an go.

Even when riding during the day I find dynamo lights handy, because it
is practically free to run them all the time. It help to have lights
on when the sky is gray or if it suddenly starts to rain.
My dynamo operated lights have also been the most reliable light
system I have ever owned. It helps that dynamo lamps are bolted to the
bike and aren't heavy because of batteries; they are far less likely
to die from being rattled to death.

Cheap bike lights just aren't worth it in the long run: their beam
patterns usually suck just like their general build quality; a drop on
the asphalt often shatter them to pieces. Often their quick release
mounts are flimsy slow release mounts that are just waiting to eject
the headlight under a car when the bike hits a bump in the road. Their
waterproofness is seldom very good, so it isn't uncommon that they let
you down when you need them the most. People buying cheap headlights,
often end up buying a lot of them over time.

The time I spend _not_ caring about lights the last couple of years
thanks to my dynamo headlights, makes even a SON hub and a Edelux seem
like a bargain.

Much agreed. Day running is not such a bad idea and as you
note as 'free' as night use. Buy, install, forget; nice system.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

landotter wrote:
On Mar 28, 2:06 pm, "Peter S." wrote:
On 28 Mar., 17:24, landotter wrote:

On Mar 28, 7:20 am, Tom Sherman °_°
Planet Bike or similar $25 LED battery light on a lowrider mount. I
see no reason to spend more to be seen in the city that's already
awash in lighting. Neither do my LBS owning friends who used to enjoy
the bragging rights of using trail lighting in the city but all of
whom have minimized to battery be-seen lighting.
Even if I had to choose between a free battery operated bike light or
a buy my own dynamo operated light system, I would choose buy a dynamo
operated light system every time. Dynamo operated headlights are just
too convenient and handy. There isn't any logistical problems, like
babysitting battery chargers, or wasting time reading up on Lipo,
Lithium, Nimh, LSD, NiZn, Lit-ion etc battery technology, should these
batteries be fully discharged between recharges or does it damage
them? Will this battery pack short circuit and burn down my house
because I dropped them on the floor (*cough*Magicshine*cough*). No
fumbling with light mounts with gloves on, or get unpredictable short
runtimes in the winter because of the cold. No stuffing lights in the
pockets when shopping or on a cafe, no planning whether you might need
the light on next ride or not, no missing lights on the way home just
because you choose to hang out an hour more than planned. With dynamo
lights you just jump on you bike an go.

And when you stop to lock up you have to worry excessively about a
very expensive front wheel. It makes sense in Copenhagen and
Gothenburg or even wintertime further north. A 2-3 AA LED be seen
light can be mounted semi-permanently to any bike and needs only 50c
worth of batteries every three months--and you don't need to carry a
pound of cable around to secure it.


No one looks at my bottle dynamo except the occasional 'what
the heck is that thing?'. My ancient GH6 does get comments
but mostly the same one.

Locking in a city unattended means securing both front and
rear wheels regardless, hub dynamo or no.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971