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Trek BB90



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 8th 20, 11:15 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Trek BB90


When I got my Trek Madone if became rapidly clear why it was so cheap. The bearings in the BB90 were rather loose. Now there are several methods of fixing this - one is to use a strong locktite-type compound which locked the bearings in place and one is the Trek way which is to put an oversize bearing in place of the stock bearing.

With normal caution as an Engineer I chose the least damaging method first. I followed the directions on the locktite and glued the "just fits" bearing into place and allowed it to dry the requisite 48 hours.. Well, climbing one of the local hills last Tuesday the BB90 began to "click" in the same place every revolution on the drive side pedal. This means the glued drive side bearing has come loose. Inasmuch as I am presently working on the Colnago I won't look at this until later. Another choice has come up - that is to check the bearing that is presently in the Madone, to see if it is undersize. That might be the case since the bearings more easily obtained from Trek are Chinese and let's say they aren't the finest quality bearing available. Hambini of one piece BB push in bearing fame who hates BB90 also can supply NTN bearings which are exactly the right size. NTN is a Japanese bearing manufacturer that supplies the best bearings in the world.

So when I remove the bearing that is presently flopping around in there I can closely measure it if I can remember where I put my micrometers. Failing that I do have a digital caliper that is fairly accurate to two decimal places. If the bearing that is in there is undersized by any significant amount (which is common with Chinese bearings.) I will get the bearing set from Hambini and install those before going to the extreme of those oversize Trek bearings which are so oversize that they can distort the bearing cups. This screws up the bearing and generally causes premature failure though "premature" is sort of an undefined term that might mean it only lasts for 1,000 hours. Chinese bearings would probably only last for twice that anyway. NTN bearings virtually last forever under the sorts of loadings that the BB90 puts on them.

So presently I'm riding the Emonda and trying to go no lower than the 28 tooth so that I can get a little more training in my legs. I am presently at 80,000 feet of climbing when I would normally be at double that. I normally close a year off with over 200,000 feet of climbing. Judging from the way that my legs felt today after a couple of 900 foot climbs I don't think that I will make 125,000 but stranger things have happened.


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  #2  
Old August 9th 20, 02:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Trek BB90

On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 3:15:40 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
When I got my Trek Madone if became rapidly clear why it was so cheap. The bearings in the BB90 were rather loose. Now there are several methods of fixing this - one is to use a strong locktite-type compound which locked the bearings in place and one is the Trek way which is to put an oversize bearing in place of the stock bearing.

With normal caution as an Engineer I chose the least damaging method first. I followed the directions on the locktite and glued the "just fits" bearing into place and allowed it to dry the requisite 48 hours.. Well, climbing one of the local hills last Tuesday the BB90 began to "click" in the same place every revolution on the drive side pedal. This means the glued drive side bearing has come loose. Inasmuch as I am presently working on the Colnago I won't look at this until later. Another choice has come up - that is to check the bearing that is presently in the Madone, to see if it is undersize. That might be the case since the bearings more easily obtained from Trek are Chinese and let's say they aren't the finest quality bearing available. Hambini of one piece BB push in bearing fame who hates BB90 also can supply NTN bearings which are exactly the right size. NTN is a Japanese bearing manufacturer that supplies the best bearings in the world.

So when I remove the bearing that is presently flopping around in there I can closely measure it if I can remember where I put my micrometers. Failing that I do have a digital caliper that is fairly accurate to two decimal places. If the bearing that is in there is undersized by any significant amount (which is common with Chinese bearings.) I will get the bearing set from Hambini and install those before going to the extreme of those oversize Trek bearings which are so oversize that they can distort the bearing cups. This screws up the bearing and generally causes premature failure though "premature" is sort of an undefined term that might mean it only lasts for 1,000 hours. Chinese bearings would probably only last for twice that anyway.. NTN bearings virtually last forever under the sorts of loadings that the BB90 puts on them.

So presently I'm riding the Emonda and trying to go no lower than the 28 tooth so that I can get a little more training in my legs. I am presently at 80,000 feet of climbing when I would normally be at double that. I normally close a year off with over 200,000 feet of climbing. Judging from the way that my legs felt today after a couple of 900 foot climbs I don't think that I will make 125,000 but stranger things have happened.


You should also check the crank bolt torque and maybe swap the pedals out, check the chain ring bolts and even the rear QR before pressing in new bearings. Cyclical clicks can come from places other than the BB.

-- Jay Beattie.


  #3  
Old August 9th 20, 12:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
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Posts: 826
Default Trek BB90

On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 3:08:01 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 3:15:40 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
When I got my Trek Madone if became rapidly clear why it was so cheap. The bearings in the BB90 were rather loose. Now there are several methods of fixing this - one is to use a strong locktite-type compound which locked the bearings in place and one is the Trek way which is to put an oversize bearing in place of the stock bearing.

With normal caution as an Engineer I chose the least damaging method first. I followed the directions on the locktite and glued the "just fits" bearing into place and allowed it to dry the requisite 48 hours.. Well, climbing one of the local hills last Tuesday the BB90 began to "click" in the same place every revolution on the drive side pedal. This means the glued drive side bearing has come loose. Inasmuch as I am presently working on the Colnago I won't look at this until later. Another choice has come up - that is to check the bearing that is presently in the Madone, to see if it is undersize. That might be the case since the bearings more easily obtained from Trek are Chinese and let's say they aren't the finest quality bearing available. Hambini of one piece BB push in bearing fame who hates BB90 also can supply NTN bearings which are exactly the right size. NTN is a Japanese bearing manufacturer that supplies the best bearings in the world.

So when I remove the bearing that is presently flopping around in there I can closely measure it if I can remember where I put my micrometers. Failing that I do have a digital caliper that is fairly accurate to two decimal places. If the bearing that is in there is undersized by any significant amount (which is common with Chinese bearings.) I will get the bearing set from Hambini and install those before going to the extreme of those oversize Trek bearings which are so oversize that they can distort the bearing cups. This screws up the bearing and generally causes premature failure though "premature" is sort of an undefined term that might mean it only lasts for 1,000 hours. Chinese bearings would probably only last for twice that anyway. NTN bearings virtually last forever under the sorts of loadings that the BB90 puts on them.

So presently I'm riding the Emonda and trying to go no lower than the 28 tooth so that I can get a little more training in my legs. I am presently at 80,000 feet of climbing when I would normally be at double that. I normally close a year off with over 200,000 feet of climbing. Judging from the way that my legs felt today after a couple of 900 foot climbs I don't think that I will make 125,000 but stranger things have happened.


You should also check the crank bolt torque and maybe swap the pedals out, check the chain ring bolts and even the rear QR before pressing in new bearings. Cyclical clicks can come from places other than the BB.

-- Jay Beattie.


Agree. I sure want to be sure that the bearing is the problem before I knocked that loctited bearing out.

Lou
  #4  
Old August 9th 20, 04:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Trek BB90

On 8/8/2020 8:07 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 3:15:40 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
When I got my Trek Madone if became rapidly clear why it was so cheap. The bearings in the BB90 were rather loose. Now there are several methods of fixing this - one is to use a strong locktite-type compound which locked the bearings in place and one is the Trek way which is to put an oversize bearing in place of the stock bearing.

With normal caution as an Engineer I chose the least damaging method first. I followed the directions on the locktite and glued the "just fits" bearing into place and allowed it to dry the requisite 48 hours.. Well, climbing one of the local hills last Tuesday the BB90 began to "click" in the same place every revolution on the drive side pedal. This means the glued drive side bearing has come loose. Inasmuch as I am presently working on the Colnago I won't look at this until later. Another choice has come up - that is to check the bearing that is presently in the Madone, to see if it is undersize. That might be the case since the bearings more easily obtained from Trek are Chinese and let's say they aren't the finest quality bearing available. Hambini of one piece BB push in bearing fame who hates BB90 also can supply NTN bearings which are exactly the right size. NTN is a Japanese bearing manufacturer that supplies the best bearings in the world.

So when I remove the bearing that is presently flopping around in there I can closely measure it if I can remember where I put my micrometers. Failing that I do have a digital caliper that is fairly accurate to two decimal places. If the bearing that is in there is undersized by any significant amount (which is common with Chinese bearings.) I will get the bearing set from Hambini and install those before going to the extreme of those oversize Trek bearings which are so oversize that they can distort the bearing cups. This screws up the bearing and generally causes premature failure though "premature" is sort of an undefined term that might mean it only lasts for 1,000 hours. Chinese bearings would probably only last for twice that anyway. NTN bearings virtually last forever under the sorts of loadings that the BB90 puts on them.

So presently I'm riding the Emonda and trying to go no lower than the 28 tooth so that I can get a little more training in my legs. I am presently at 80,000 feet of climbing when I would normally be at double that. I normally close a year off with over 200,000 feet of climbing. Judging from the way that my legs felt today after a couple of 900 foot climbs I don't think that I will make 125,000 but stranger things have happened.


You should also check the crank bolt torque and maybe swap the pedals out, check the chain ring bolts and even the rear QR before pressing in new bearings. Cyclical clicks can come from places other than the BB.

-- Jay Beattie.




+1

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #5  
Old August 9th 20, 05:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
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Posts: 1,318
Default Trek BB90

On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 6:08:01 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 3:15:40 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
When I got my Trek Madone if became rapidly clear why it was so cheap. The bearings in the BB90 were rather loose. Now there are several methods of fixing this - one is to use a strong locktite-type compound which locked the bearings in place and one is the Trek way which is to put an oversize bearing in place of the stock bearing.

With normal caution as an Engineer I chose the least damaging method first. I followed the directions on the locktite and glued the "just fits" bearing into place and allowed it to dry the requisite 48 hours.. Well, climbing one of the local hills last Tuesday the BB90 began to "click" in the same place every revolution on the drive side pedal. This means the glued drive side bearing has come loose. Inasmuch as I am presently working on the Colnago I won't look at this until later. Another choice has come up - that is to check the bearing that is presently in the Madone, to see if it is undersize. That might be the case since the bearings more easily obtained from Trek are Chinese and let's say they aren't the finest quality bearing available. Hambini of one piece BB push in bearing fame who hates BB90 also can supply NTN bearings which are exactly the right size. NTN is a Japanese bearing manufacturer that supplies the best bearings in the world.

So when I remove the bearing that is presently flopping around in there I can closely measure it if I can remember where I put my micrometers. Failing that I do have a digital caliper that is fairly accurate to two decimal places. If the bearing that is in there is undersized by any significant amount (which is common with Chinese bearings.) I will get the bearing set from Hambini and install those before going to the extreme of those oversize Trek bearings which are so oversize that they can distort the bearing cups. This screws up the bearing and generally causes premature failure though "premature" is sort of an undefined term that might mean it only lasts for 1,000 hours. Chinese bearings would probably only last for twice that anyway. NTN bearings virtually last forever under the sorts of loadings that the BB90 puts on them.

So presently I'm riding the Emonda and trying to go no lower than the 28 tooth so that I can get a little more training in my legs. I am presently at 80,000 feet of climbing when I would normally be at double that. I normally close a year off with over 200,000 feet of climbing. Judging from the way that my legs felt today after a couple of 900 foot climbs I don't think that I will make 125,000 but stranger things have happened.

You should also check the crank bolt torque and maybe swap the pedals out, check the chain ring bolts and even the rear QR before pressing in new bearings. Cyclical clicks can come from places other than the BB.

-- Jay Beattie.

Being on the drive side it cannot be crank torque, the pedals are new so the bearings are extremely unlikely to be loose and usually make noise at the ends of the crank revolutions both top and bottom. Cyclical clicks in exactly the same location almost always means that you have a loose bottom bracket bearing. But of course before I disassemble anything I check everything out. That is what a bike repair stand is for.
  #6  
Old August 9th 20, 05:52 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Trek BB90

On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 4:14:56 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 3:08:01 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, August 8, 2020 at 3:15:40 PM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
When I got my Trek Madone if became rapidly clear why it was so cheap.. The bearings in the BB90 were rather loose. Now there are several methods of fixing this - one is to use a strong locktite-type compound which locked the bearings in place and one is the Trek way which is to put an oversize bearing in place of the stock bearing.

With normal caution as an Engineer I chose the least damaging method first. I followed the directions on the locktite and glued the "just fits" bearing into place and allowed it to dry the requisite 48 hours.. Well, climbing one of the local hills last Tuesday the BB90 began to "click" in the same place every revolution on the drive side pedal. This means the glued drive side bearing has come loose. Inasmuch as I am presently working on the Colnago I won't look at this until later. Another choice has come up - that is to check the bearing that is presently in the Madone, to see if it is undersize. That might be the case since the bearings more easily obtained from Trek are Chinese and let's say they aren't the finest quality bearing available. Hambini of one piece BB push in bearing fame who hates BB90 also can supply NTN bearings which are exactly the right size. NTN is a Japanese bearing manufacturer that supplies the best bearings in the world.

So when I remove the bearing that is presently flopping around in there I can closely measure it if I can remember where I put my micrometers. Failing that I do have a digital caliper that is fairly accurate to two decimal places. If the bearing that is in there is undersized by any significant amount (which is common with Chinese bearings.) I will get the bearing set from Hambini and install those before going to the extreme of those oversize Trek bearings which are so oversize that they can distort the bearing cups. This screws up the bearing and generally causes premature failure though "premature" is sort of an undefined term that might mean it only lasts for 1,000 hours. Chinese bearings would probably only last for twice that anyway. NTN bearings virtually last forever under the sorts of loadings that the BB90 puts on them.

So presently I'm riding the Emonda and trying to go no lower than the 28 tooth so that I can get a little more training in my legs. I am presently at 80,000 feet of climbing when I would normally be at double that. I normally close a year off with over 200,000 feet of climbing. Judging from the way that my legs felt today after a couple of 900 foot climbs I don't think that I will make 125,000 but stranger things have happened.


You should also check the crank bolt torque and maybe swap the pedals out, check the chain ring bolts and even the rear QR before pressing in new bearings. Cyclical clicks can come from places other than the BB.

-- Jay Beattie.

Agree. I sure want to be sure that the bearing is the problem before I knocked that loctited bearing out.

Lou

To look at anything you have to pull out the crank. Generally in a BB90 if you have a loose BB bearing it comes out on the drive side crank. So it isn't as if it is a difficult analysis.
  #7  
Old August 9th 20, 06:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default Trek BB90

On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 04:14:54 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
wrote:

Agree. I sure want to be sure that the bearing is the problem before I knocked that loctited bearing out.
Lou


Agreed.

"How to Remove Loctite 2620 Red Threadlocker"
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-loctite-2620.html

"How to Remove Red Threadlocker"
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-red-threadlocker.html

I've also used acetone (nail polish remover) to soften Loctite.
However, both heat and acetone might be impractical on a bottom
bracket because of the damage they might do to the frame paint job.

I would try putting the bearing under tension using a bottom bracket
bearing removal tool:
https://www.google.com/search?q=bottom+bracket+bearing+removal+tool&tbm=i sch
and using a syringe to inject a small amount of acetone along the glue
line. Acetone evaporates quickly, so just keep applying small amounts
and increasing tension until the bearing starts to move.

After the bearing is out, clean out any residual Loctite with acetone
from the bottom bracket. Find an inside micrometer to measure the
inside diameter of the bottom bracket. Look for an out of round
bottom bracket. Calculate the required thickness of a brass or steel
shim and use it instead of Loctite.
https://www.amazon.com/Goodson-Shim-Stock-Assortment-Brass-5/dp/B0009RGYZO
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=0.001&rh=n%3A16413291
Aluminum foil might also work, but you'll probably need to polish the
bottom bracket to prevent tearing the foil during insertion.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #8  
Old August 9th 20, 07:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Ralph Barone[_4_]
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Posts: 853
Default Trek BB90

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 04:14:54 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
wrote:

Agree. I sure want to be sure that the bearing is the problem before I
knocked that loctited bearing out.
Lou


Agreed.

"How to Remove Loctite 2620 Red Threadlocker"
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-loctite-2620.html

"How to Remove Red Threadlocker"
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-red-threadlocker.html

I've also used acetone (nail polish remover) to soften Loctite.
However, both heat and acetone might be impractical on a bottom
bracket because of the damage they might do to the frame paint job.

I would try putting the bearing under tension using a bottom bracket
bearing removal tool:
https://www.google.com/search?q=bottom+bracket+bearing+removal+tool&tbm=i sch
and using a syringe to inject a small amount of acetone along the glue
line. Acetone evaporates quickly, so just keep applying small amounts
and increasing tension until the bearing starts to move.

After the bearing is out, clean out any residual Loctite with acetone
from the bottom bracket. Find an inside micrometer to measure the
inside diameter of the bottom bracket. Look for an out of round
bottom bracket. Calculate the required thickness of a brass or steel
shim and use it instead of Loctite.
https://www.amazon.com/Goodson-Shim-Stock-Assortment-Brass-5/dp/B0009RGYZO
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=0.001&rh=n%3A16413291
Aluminum foil might also work, but you'll probably need to polish the
bottom bracket to prevent tearing the foil during insertion.


I think that the issue with shimming is that the required shim thickness
(half the difference in diameters) is likely to be in the “tinfoil or less”
range, which then results in excessive grief trying not to shred it on
insertion. That is where Loctite excels.

  #9  
Old August 9th 20, 08:07 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Lou Holtman[_5_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 826
Default Trek BB90

On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 8:21:00 PM UTC+2, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 04:14:54 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
wrote:

Agree. I sure want to be sure that the bearing is the problem before I
knocked that loctited bearing out.
Lou


Agreed.

"How to Remove Loctite 2620 Red Threadlocker"
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-loctite-2620.html

"How to Remove Red Threadlocker"
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-red-threadlocker.html

I've also used acetone (nail polish remover) to soften Loctite.
However, both heat and acetone might be impractical on a bottom
bracket because of the damage they might do to the frame paint job.

I would try putting the bearing under tension using a bottom bracket
bearing removal tool:
https://www.google.com/search?q=bottom+bracket+bearing+removal+tool&tbm=i sch
and using a syringe to inject a small amount of acetone along the glue
line. Acetone evaporates quickly, so just keep applying small amounts
and increasing tension until the bearing starts to move.

After the bearing is out, clean out any residual Loctite with acetone
from the bottom bracket. Find an inside micrometer to measure the
inside diameter of the bottom bracket. Look for an out of round
bottom bracket. Calculate the required thickness of a brass or steel
shim and use it instead of Loctite.
https://www.amazon.com/Goodson-Shim-Stock-Assortment-Brass-5/dp/B0009RGYZO
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=0.001&rh=n%3A16413291
Aluminum foil might also work, but you'll probably need to polish the
bottom bracket to prevent tearing the foil during insertion.


I think that the issue with shimming is that the required shim thickness
(half the difference in diameters) is likely to be in the “tinfoil or less”
range, which then results in excessive grief trying not to shred it on
insertion. That is where Loctite excels.


+1 shimming? No chance. The difference between a press fit and loose fit is 20-30 um.
Shims with that thickness will shred.

Lou
  #10  
Old August 9th 20, 10:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,318
Default Trek BB90

On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 12:07:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Sunday, August 9, 2020 at 8:21:00 PM UTC+2, Ralph Barone wrote:
Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 9 Aug 2020 04:14:54 -0700 (PDT), Lou Holtman
wrote:

Agree. I sure want to be sure that the bearing is the problem before I
knocked that loctited bearing out.
Lou

Agreed.

"How to Remove Loctite 2620 Red Threadlocker"
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-loctite-2620.html

"How to Remove Red Threadlocker"
https://www.henkel-adhesives.com/us/en/insights/all-insights/blog/how-to-remove-red-threadlocker.html

I've also used acetone (nail polish remover) to soften Loctite.
However, both heat and acetone might be impractical on a bottom
bracket because of the damage they might do to the frame paint job.

I would try putting the bearing under tension using a bottom bracket
bearing removal tool:
https://www.google.com/search?q=bottom+bracket+bearing+removal+tool&tbm=i sch
and using a syringe to inject a small amount of acetone along the glue
line. Acetone evaporates quickly, so just keep applying small amounts
and increasing tension until the bearing starts to move.

After the bearing is out, clean out any residual Loctite with acetone
from the bottom bracket. Find an inside micrometer to measure the
inside diameter of the bottom bracket. Look for an out of round
bottom bracket. Calculate the required thickness of a brass or steel
shim and use it instead of Loctite.
https://www.amazon.com/Goodson-Shim-Stock-Assortment-Brass-5/dp/B0009RGYZO
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=0.001&rh=n%3A16413291
Aluminum foil might also work, but you'll probably need to polish the
bottom bracket to prevent tearing the foil during insertion.


I think that the issue with shimming is that the required shim thickness
(half the difference in diameters) is likely to be in the “tinfoil or less”
range, which then results in excessive grief trying not to shred it on
insertion. That is where Loctite excels.

+1 shimming? No chance. The difference between a press fit and loose fit is 20-30 um.
Shims with that thickness will shred.

Lou

Absolutely. I haven't any idea where anyone would get the idea that a shim could be made to work since the difference in a press fit and a close drop-in fit is something like a thousandths of an inch.

Interestingly enough, you would think that the gluing in process would have caused a misalignment but instead the crank slipped right in and spun freely indicating no misalignment in three dimensions.
 




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