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Steel may be real but....



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 1st 13, 11:48 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Steel may be real but....

This fit of Timoshenkoism was brought on by the approximation sign in this only approximately true remark in another thread:
On Saturday, June 1, 2013 8:04:52 AM UTC+1, Dan O wrote:
... steel - most ~easily fabricated by common folk.)


Wood is even easier to work with, and has excellent engineering qualities, easily improved upon by laminating veneers or slats together from the cheapest cuts. The tools are simple, few, cheap, and many can be improvised or built yourself. Often the template can be the workpiece, so that there is no waste. Wood looks and feels good, takes many finishes, blends superbly with other useful materials. If correctly looked after, wood is very likely to be more durable than either fiber reinforced plastic or (particularly) carbon reinforced plastic.

Artfully laminated wooden bikes can be very beautiful.

Andre Jute
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  #2  
Old June 2nd 13, 12:53 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
datakoll
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Default Steel may be real but....

unghahawhoa !

have you read thru DIY frame manuals ? Not sure if the one I read is here.

Definitely experimenal aircraft class for a hobbyist

http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%...ced&dblist=638
  #3  
Old June 3rd 13, 12:07 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
James[_8_]
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Default Steel may be real but....

On 02/06/13 01:51, Andre Jute wrote:

Those Renovos are so beautiful, at one stage I considered gritting my
teeth and paying the carriage to get one delivered to Europe. But I'd
really want a fork in the same material, and to use 60mm/2.35in
tyres, and they go up only to 2.1in


I could live without a wood fork - at least one with a wood steerer
tube. I think to get similar strength to steel/Al/CFRP, the steerer and
consequently the headset would need to be oversize and non-standard.
You wouldn't be able to fit your beloved Cane Creek HS, me thinks, or a
regular head stem either.

That aside, I was in the same boat. Considering buying one, but not
quite able to go through with it for a few reasons. One being I'd like
to ride one first, and feel how it works. Not easy from this distance.

--
JS
  #4  
Old June 3rd 13, 01:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Ace
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Default Steel may be real but....

On Sunday, June 2, 2013 4:07:03 PM UTC-7, James wrote:

I could live without a wood fork - at least one with a wood steerer
tube. I think to get similar strength to steel/Al/CFRP, the steerer and
consequently the headset would need to be oversize and non-standard.
You wouldn't be able to fit your beloved Cane Creek HS, me thinks, or a
regular head stem either.


Yeah.

I think there are good reasons Renovo doesn't
offer a wood fork. And even if they did,
it's not like you'd then have a pure wood frame.
The rear frame ends are metal. Renovo does about
as good a job you could ask for in how they join
but there's no getting around how it mars the
aesthetics of a wood frame somewhat.


That aside, I was in the same boat. Considering buying one, but not
quite able to go through with it for a few reasons. One being I'd like
to ride one first, and feel how it works. Not easy from this distance.


They got my interest too. I didn't get one for
a bunch of reasons, not least of which is I
already have all the bikes I need.

Tom Ace
  #5  
Old June 3rd 13, 12:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Steel may be real but....

On 02/06/13 01:51, Andre Jute wrote:

Those Renovos are so beautiful, at one stage I considered gritting my
teeth and paying the carriage to get one delivered to Europe. But I'd
really want a fork in the same material, and to use 60mm/2.35in
tyres, and they go up only to 2.1in


On Monday, June 3, 2013 12:07:03 AM UTC+1, James wrote:

I could live without a wood fork - at least one with a wood steerer
tube. I think to get similar strength to steel/Al/CFRP, the steerer and
consequently the headset would need to be oversize and non-standard.
You wouldn't be able to fit your beloved Cane Creek HS, me thinks, or a
regular head stem either.


I wasn't thinking of an all-wood fork. I'm not cracked on the subject of wood, just impressed by it's engineering qualities when properly applied, and that means with metal attachment and anti-crush fittings where required.

A bike, any bike, in a non-standard material, is much less attractive to me if it requires custom components. Mechaninal parts like the bottom bracket and the headset are such mature engineering in their standard forms (which is why I choose the Cain Creek headset you mention; it's the granddaddy of the current standard), boutique special versions are bound to inferior if not outright troublesome. I don't have the patience for undergraduate "engineering". For me it has to fit, and it has to work, first time; I can afford to give time to pre-planning but not to endless fiddling.

On Monday, June 3, 2013 1:19:07 AM UTC+1, Tom Ace wrote:

Yeah.

I think there are good reasons Renovo doesn't
offer a wood fork. And even if they did,
it's not like you'd then have a pure wood frame.
The rear frame ends are metal. Renovo does about
as good a job you could ask for in how they join
but there's no getting around how it mars the
aesthetics of a wood frame somewhat.


I think the metal fittings can be turned into an attractive feature, like the brass edges and corners on a well-made steamer trunk. However, now that I think on it, a wood fork would probably have to be considerably less slender than suits the style of bike I like and ride. Perhaps it would be smarter to start on the wooden bike journey with a fork already in mind, say a 29er biplane crown on the Thorn style made in Noblex stainless steel by Uwe Marschall. Thorn is at http://www.sjscycles.com/thornpdf/Th...aForkLoRes.pdf -- see LH side of page which shows suspension substitute fork for 26in wheels with the Thorn trademark biplane crown. Marschall's gallery is at http://www.marschall-framework.de/Galerie/index.html.

On Monday, June 3, 2013 12:07:03 AM UTC+1, James wrote:

That aside, I was in the same boat. Considering buying one, but not
quite able to go through with it for a few reasons. One being I'd like
to ride one first, and feel how it works. Not easy from this distance.


The fit on a sporting bike is probably more critical for you because you also have to consider aerodynamics and efficiency. I've had a very good run buying bikes from several countries and several sea crossings away, and then adjusting them to fit, one of them more of a reengineering job (with tremendously valuable input from Trek Benelux), but I don't have to consider aerodynamics at all and efficiency isn't a big deal after you settle the general gearing to a Rohloff to suit your capabilities -- you just shift the entire transfer function by changing a single chainring.

On Monday, June 3, 2013 1:19:07 AM UTC+1, Tom Ace wrote:

They [Renovo wood bikes] got my interest too. I didn't get one for
a bunch of reasons, not least of which is I
already have all the bikes I need.


Yes, I have bikes in the loft that I'm not likely to ride again while I keep the Utopia Kranich, which fits me like a glove, and which consequently I'll never let go. But my interest in the Renovo was before Chalo advised me to look at Utopia again (I had previously dismissed them as well-engineered toys for slightly eccentric plutocrats, very nice but not justifiable for a Calvinist, a mistaken assumption, as it turned out). I wouldn't buy a Renovo, or any other bike, as a bike to kept for Sundays, as an extra bike. All my bikes were bought with the intention of riding them as often as I feel the urge to get on a bike.

That leads me to another problem with wood. I'm not a compulsive cleaner. I wipe my current steel bike down after rain, and I shampoo it with an aerosol every second year or so, and once or twice a year I wipe casually around the hubs and spokes and rims to clear most of the film of exhaust muck and road dust. I know fellows who would clean a bike like mine with a toothbrush, but the truth is, after half a daily ride, my bike is as shiny as theirs. I don't obsess about small nicks to the historically significant paint job on my bike. But wood in daily use has to be maintained or it will age badly. I think a ten year-old Renovo frame, as abused as some of those thirty and forty year-old steel frames Andy Muzi showed photographs of last year, wouldn't survive as well as steel. But eventually a wood bike would have to be stripped, sanded, revarnished, probably three or four times before you would absolutely *have* to repaint a steel frame. It's a cost you need to feature in, and if you will have the job done elsewhere (perhaps even at Renovo), a nuisance and probably a large carriage cost each way.

Andre Jute
Aesthete

  #6  
Old June 4th 13, 03:06 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default Steel may be real but....

On Tue, 04 Jun 2013 08:06:27 +1000, James
wrote:

On 03/06/13 21:14, Andre Jute wrote:

That leads me to another problem with wood. I'm not a compulsive
cleaner. I wipe my current steel bike down after rain, and I shampoo
it with an aerosol every second year or so, and once or twice a year
I wipe casually around the hubs and spokes and rims to clear most of
the film of exhaust muck and road dust. I know fellows who would
clean a bike like mine with a toothbrush, but the truth is, after
half a daily ride, my bike is as shiny as theirs. I don't obsess
about small nicks to the historically significant paint job on my
bike. But wood in daily use has to be maintained or it will age
badly. I think a ten year-old Renovo frame, as abused as some of
those thirty and forty year-old steel frames Andy Muzi showed
photographs of last year, wouldn't survive as well as steel. But
eventually a wood bike would have to be stripped, sanded,
revarnished, probably three or four times before you would absolutely
*have* to repaint a steel frame. It's a cost you need to feature in,
and if you will have the job done elsewhere (perhaps even at Renovo),
a nuisance and probably a large carriage cost each way.


Steel, once exposed to the air and moisture, will rust (excluding good
stainless).

Wood, once exposed to the air and moisture, will absorb a little and may
eventually rot.

I don't see that there would be much difference in the long haul.


Wood is subject to both fungus and insect damage. See Dry Rot and
termites :-)

--
Cheers,

John B.
 




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