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  #1  
Old March 31st 06, 12:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
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Default Marin County CA


"Tom Keats" wrote in message
news
In article .net,
"Claire Petersky" writes:

No, Bill, he has his point. I mean really, to have people who are sincere
and committed to various religious practices, attend an interfaith (not
"faith-based") retreat together. C'mon. This is completely out of
fashion.


Yeah, personally (and apparently unlike bcrowell,) I don't
regard "faith" and "religion as strictly synonymous.
Sure, faith can have a religious component, but I think it
can also have spiritual, sociological, philosophical,
political, and yes, even scientific components. Often, "faith"
is all we have -- even in science. Except scientists prefer to
use the word: "axioms" instead.

Faith and religion are practically synonymous. Any other kind of faith is
for liberal loonies like you. If you do not have any religion, then learn to
live with despair like I do, you coward!

Perhaps instead of sitting in contemplative silence for much of the time,
we
should scream at each other. "Death to the infidel" has a good ring to
it,
don't you think?


Please Claire, do not try to think on such matters. It is way beyond you.
Instead, restrict yourself to telling us where you are going on your various
mindless trips.

I kinda like "Death by Chocolate."


Good comment Tom! I also like all your kinda's and your yeah's. It shows you
are a man of the working class - as all good Vancouver dock workers should
be.

And instead of reading each other's religious texts and
engaging in "constructive dialog", I think burning each other's texts
would
be closer to what's in tune with today's world.


Good thinking Claire! Why not read the Koran while you are at it though. Who
knows, you may glean some enlightenment that is not in the Christian Bible.

It would be especially nice if Native American faiths are
represented at this interfaith meditation retreat.
Anyways it's always good when people get together and
establish world-view common ground while celebrating
diversity and establishing friendship.


"Anyways it's always BAD when people get together and
establish world-view common ground while celebrating
diversity and establishing friendship." - Ed Dolan

Try to get a brain someday why don't you Tom? Or better yet, go to Baghdad
and see what those Muslim terrorists will do to you. Off with your head!
There, now you don't need any brain at all.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota



Ads
  #2  
Old March 31st 06, 03:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
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Posts: n/a
Default Marin County CA

On Fri, 31 Mar 2006 05:55:34 -0600, "Edward Dolan" wrote:


"Tom Keats" wrote in message
news
In article .net,
"Claire Petersky" writes:

No, Bill, he has his point. I mean really, to have people who are sincere
and committed to various religious practices, attend an interfaith (not
"faith-based") retreat together. C'mon. This is completely out of
fashion.


Yeah, personally (and apparently unlike bcrowell,) I don't
regard "faith" and "religion as strictly synonymous.
Sure, faith can have a religious component, but I think it
can also have spiritual, sociological, philosophical,
political, and yes, even scientific components. Often, "faith"
is all we have -- even in science. Except scientists prefer to
use the word: "axioms" instead.


Faith and religion are practically synonymous. Any other kind of faith is
for liberal loonies like you. If you do not have any religion, then learn to
live with despair like I do, you coward!

Perhaps instead of sitting in contemplative silence for much of the time,
we
should scream at each other. "Death to the infidel" has a good ring to
it,
don't you think?


Please Claire, do not try to think on such matters. It is way beyond you.
Instead, restrict yourself to telling us where you are going on your various
mindless trips.

I kinda like "Death by Chocolate."


Good comment Tom! I also like all your kinda's and your yeah's. It shows you
are a man of the working class - as all good Vancouver dock workers should
be.

And instead of reading each other's religious texts and
engaging in "constructive dialog", I think burning each other's texts
would
be closer to what's in tune with today's world.


Good thinking Claire! Why not read the Koran while you are at it though. Who
knows, you may glean some enlightenment that is not in the Christian Bible.

It would be especially nice if Native American faiths are
represented at this interfaith meditation retreat.
Anyways it's always good when people get together and
establish world-view common ground while celebrating
diversity and establishing friendship.


"Anyways it's always BAD when people get together and
establish world-view common ground while celebrating
diversity and establishing friendship." - Ed Dolan

Try to get a brain someday why don't you Tom? Or better yet, go to Baghdad
and see what those Muslim terrorists will do to you. Off with your head!
There, now you don't need any brain at all.

What a surprise. Crowell and Dolan nearly indistinguishable.

Ron
  #3  
Old March 31st 06, 05:13 PM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
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Default Marin County CA

Ed Dolan wrote: "Simply put, man cannot live without religion..[.] I
think our brains are wired for religion. In other words, I believe it
may be as much an instinct as is hunger or sex..[.]Religion most likely
came about in the evolution of our species because of
the fear of death due to our consciousness."

I respectfully disagree, Ed. I instead tend to agree with Professor
Dennett of Tufts University who wrote, in his book "Breaking the Spell:
Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", "Why do religions take over mens'
minds? Because they can." In other words, because evolution tries out
every combination and permutation of existence that can possibly exist.
The fact that religion has survived in mens' minds is not necessarily
adaptive for men; it might instead be adaptive for religion.

He gives the example of the Lancet Fluke, asking, "Did you ever wonder
why ants have the habit of crawling up to the top of a blade of grass
and staying there? It's not adaptive behavior, because they're NOT
looking for sunshine, or for food, or for a mate. It's because the
Lancet Fluke, a parasitic worm, has invaded their brains and modified
their brain proteins so as to force them to engage in this behavior.
The Lancet Fluke needs to be ingested by a sheep and lodge in its
intestinal tract as part of its reproductive cycle, so it needs to
locate itself where this is likely to happen. The ant is just a
vehicle to effectuate the propagation of the Lancet Fluke. The ant's
behavior has nothing whatsoever to do with perpetuation of the ant's
progeny, but instead with perpetuation of the Lancet Fluke's progeny.
Religion has also taken on a life force of its own, and its
perpetuation has nothing to do with perpetuation of the human race but
instead only with the perpetuation of religion itself, and for its own
sake.

  #4  
Old April 1st 06, 08:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
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Posts: n/a
Default Marin County CA


wrote in message
ups.com...
Ed Dolan wrote: "Simply put, man cannot live without religion..[.] I
think our brains are wired for religion. In other words, I believe it
may be as much an instinct as is hunger or sex..[.]Religion most likely
came about in the evolution of our species because of
the fear of death due to our consciousness."

I respectfully disagree, Ed. I instead tend to agree with Professor
Dennett of Tufts University who wrote, in his book "Breaking the Spell:
Religion as a Natural Phenomenon", "Why do religions take over mens'
minds? Because they can." In other words, because evolution tries out
every combination and permutation of existence that can possibly exist.
The fact that religion has survived in mens' minds is not necessarily
adaptive for men; it might instead be adaptive for religion.


Nope, that is exactly backwards. Religion does not exist outside of men's
minds nor what was adaptive to his survival.

Men will believe in the supernatural no matter how much you try to
extinguish such beliefs. Most primitive religions are just full of evil
spirits and evil Gods. How else to account for all the misery that befalls
us.

Our high degree of consciousness causes us to be aware of death and
oblivion. Evolution counteracted this realization by giving us the
propensity to religion. All of literature and history confirm this over and
over. Simply put, man cannot live without religion. It is wired into our
brains. We will believe in the supernatural no matter what.

He gives the example of the Lancet Fluke, asking, "Did you ever wonder
why ants have the habit of crawling up to the top of a blade of grass
and staying there? It's not adaptive behavior, because they're NOT
looking for sunshine, or for food, or for a mate. It's because the
Lancet Fluke, a parasitic worm, has invaded their brains and modified
their brain proteins so as to force them to engage in this behavior.
The Lancet Fluke needs to be ingested by a sheep and lodge in its
intestinal tract as part of its reproductive cycle, so it needs to
locate itself where this is likely to happen. The ant is just a
vehicle to effectuate the propagation of the Lancet Fluke. The ant's
behavior has nothing whatsoever to do with perpetuation of the ant's
progeny, but instead with perpetuation of the Lancet Fluke's progeny.
Religion has also taken on a life force of its own, and its
perpetuation has nothing to do with perpetuation of the human race but
instead only with the perpetuation of religion itself, and for its own
sake.


How the hell can religion exist outside of human consciousness! Are you
crazy?

Human consciousness has changed everything forever. We are not ants and
cannot ever be. Most animals operate on the level of instincts which are
adapted for their survival no matter how stupid we think those instincts
are. Whatever works in nature works and that is all that matters. However,
we humans are slightly outside of nature due to our consciousness (based on
speech which in turn permits us to think abstractly). Maybe we should envy
the chimps who do not really have this ability.

I do not believe the chimps are capable of waging warfare like we humans
are. That is because they are not able to think abstractly like we do. Only
humans engage in warfare which is a murderous will to kill those with whom
we disagree about one thing or another.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #5  
Old April 6th 06, 04:24 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Marin County CA


"nget" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan Wrote:



I do not believe the chimps are capable of waging warfare like we
humans
are. That is because they are not able to think abstractly like we do.
Only
humans engage in warfare which is a murderous will to kill those with
whom
we disagree about one thing or another.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

http://www.janegoodall.org/jane/
In 1974 Jane goodall was in Gombe doing research on primates. She
recorded what is now called the "four year war" that occured between
non human primates. The war was not up to par with what men are capable
of but it was a brutal war. It suprised me to learn that the chimps also
went on hunting trips to kill wild pigs to add meat to their diet.


Warfare requires planning which I don't think the chimps are capable of. It
may that those chimps in the Goodall study were just in too close a
proximity to one another. But the damn chimps are smarter than we give them
credit for. The lack of language is the critical factor as you simply cannot
think without language nor can you have any refined emotions.

A really great experiment would be to take a human child from birth and
raise him without any human contact. I think you would end up with a
creature not much different than a chimp. This experiment has never yet been
done in the entire history of mankind. The so-called 'wild boy' studies were
all extremely flawed.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #6  
Old April 6th 06, 04:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.misc,alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Marin County CA


"NYC XYZ" wrote in message
oups.com...
Edward Dolan wrote:

Newsgroups trimmed.
[...]

But the question remains: what do we do without religion? How can we
get past what seems to be the hard-wired need for some kind of faith?


The mass of men will never be able to get past it any more than they will be
able to get past their lusts, something NYC knows all about.

Krishnamurti -- and some readings of the Buddha, it seems -- talks
about a kind of knowledge that's like faith, non-intellectual but surer
than anything else. Apparently this kind of certainty lies beyond the
duality of our intellects and non-intellects (that is, our analytical
faculty and the "purely sensory" ones)...but this seems to be a very
hard state of being to achieve, not to mention maintain!


There has never been a good religion to come out of the East. It is all
bonkers. They have the kind of religions which will allow men to die of
stavation in the streets and not even take notice. Religions which are too
other-worldly are an abomination and are not what mankind requires.

Why do such questions even trouble one in the first place? It's true
-- whether there is or is not a God (etc.), I'd likely still live and
behave as I do now...my lusts would remain the same, I wouldn't
suddenly go volunteer at a homeless shelter....


Morality and religion are connected in the higher religions, but that is not
true of the more primitive religions. Very many primitive religions are all
about evil gods and spirits and how to placate them so as to be permitted to
live. Basically, it is the fear of death, especially premature death, which
gives rise to religion.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


  #7  
Old April 7th 06, 08:06 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Marin County CA


Edward Dolan Wrote:
"nget" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan Wrote:



I do not believe the chimps are capable of waging warfare like we
humans
are. That is because they are not able to think abstractly like we

do.
Only
humans engage in warfare which is a murderous will to kill those

with
whom
we disagree about one thing or another.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

http://www.janegoodall.org/jane/
In 1974 Jane goodall was in Gombe doing research on primates. She
recorded what is now called the "four year war" that occured between
non human primates. The war was not up to par with what men are

capable
of but it was a brutal war. It suprised me to learn that the chimps

also
went on hunting trips to kill wild pigs to add meat to their diet.


Warfare requires planning which I don't think the chimps are capable
of. It
may that those chimps in the Goodall study were just in too close a
proximity to one another. But the damn chimps are smarter than we give
them
credit for. The lack of language is the critical factor as you simply
cannot
think without language nor can you have any refined emotions.

A really great experiment would be to take a human child from birth
and
raise him without any human contact. I think you would end up with a
creature not much different than a chimp. This experiment has never yet
been
done in the entire history of mankind. The so-called 'wild boy' studies
were
all extremely flawed.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Why would we want to study some 'wild boy' when for the last 30 years
we have had a low land gorilla named Koko to talk to us in sign
language? Koko can make her own sentences from her 1000 words in her
vocabulary. Her IQ is between 70 and 90 on the human scale.
It was years ago that I last went to the zoo and I marveled at the
large python but it was the primates that haunt me to this day. Why
must we lock up these creatures that are in so many ways just like us?
I think there could be more than just pure instinct at play here. As
long as humans are the dominant species, who will take us to task for
what we do?

Mark


--
nget

  #8  
Old April 7th 06, 01:08 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Marin County CA


"nget" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan Wrote:
"nget" wrote in message
...

Edward Dolan Wrote:



I do not believe the chimps are capable of waging warfare like we
humans
are. That is because they are not able to think abstractly like we

do.
Only
humans engage in warfare which is a murderous will to kill those

with
whom
we disagree about one thing or another.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota
http://www.janegoodall.org/jane/
In 1974 Jane goodall was in Gombe doing research on primates. She
recorded what is now called the "four year war" that occured between
non human primates. The war was not up to par with what men are

capable
of but it was a brutal war. It suprised me to learn that the chimps

also
went on hunting trips to kill wild pigs to add meat to their diet.


Warfare requires planning which I don't think the chimps are capable
of. It
may that those chimps in the Goodall study were just in too close a
proximity to one another. But the damn chimps are smarter than we give
them
credit for. The lack of language is the critical factor as you simply
cannot
think without language nor can you have any refined emotions.

A really great experiment would be to take a human child from birth
and
raise him without any human contact. I think you would end up with a
creature not much different than a chimp. This experiment has never yet
been
done in the entire history of mankind. The so-called 'wild boy' studies
were
all extremely flawed.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


Why would we want to study some 'wild boy' when for the last 30 years
we have had a low land gorilla named Koko to talk to us in sign
language? Koko can make her own sentences from her 1000 words in her
vocabulary. Her IQ is between 70 and 90 on the human scale.
It was years ago that I last went to the zoo and I marveled at the
large python but it was the primates that haunt me to this day. Why
must we lock up these creatures that are in so many ways just like us?
I think there could be more than just pure instinct at play here. As
long as humans are the dominant species, who will take us to task for
what we do?

Mark


Mark, I simply can't stand to see the chimps in a zoo. It is like I am
looking at my own reflection.

Nevertheless, every species is unique, especially when you get to the higher
mammals. We are more like the chimps than we are to any other primates, but
still we are sufficiently different from them. The thing is that we humans
developed speech and hence language. This enables us to think abstractly and
in very complex ways. The chimps simply cannot do this.

Are our language abilities due to our larger brain size and/or our vocal
cords. Perhaps both as evolution works to develop that which will ensure
survival above all else. Primitive man needed a very large brain in order
to survive in a world of fearsome creatures. Our brains are ideally adapted
for hunting in groups (like a pack of wolves) and this is an extremely
complex kind of behavior. I always marvel at how my working class friends
just love to hunt. They are truly doing what we are best adapted to do.

Most 'wild boy' studies have been flawed because in those few rare cases it
has been impossible to determine if they were brain damaged (retarded) or
not. If they were in fact retarded, then we can't learn anything about what
a human would be like if raised without any human contact whatsoever.

Every social scientist who has ever lived would love to conduct an
experiment where a human child would be raised without any human contact. In
other words, raised without the benefit of speech and language. This is the
"forbidden experiment" and anyone who would attempt it would be branded a
monster, worse than a Dr. Frankenstein!

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota


 




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