Worn Cassette

I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a call a
few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I needed a new
chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace the chain (had
approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was told that because
the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my rear cassette (dura ace).
They suggested I replace it before I did futher damage to the drive
train (front chain rings). They said that the teeth on the rear
cassette have been worn to the point where a new chain simply wouldn't
seat in the old cassette teeth and would be skipping all over the
place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

cyclingguy wrote:
I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a call a
few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I needed a new
chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace the chain (had
approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was told that because
the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my rear cassette (dura ace).
They suggested I replace it before I did futher damage to the drive
train (front chain rings). They said that the teeth on the rear
cassette have been worn to the point where a new chain simply wouldn't
seat in the old cassette teeth and would be skipping all over the
place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

This could be true. It depends on a number of factors like how worn
your chain is, how dirty your drivetrain is, and what gears you use and
how often. Unless the chain is extreamly stretched, which is debatable
with only 1500 miles on it, the shop should put on a new chain and test
ride it to see if the chain does skip over the cogs. This will happen
because a chain and cassette wear together. As soon as you put a new
chain on the old cassette the chain will not mesh properly causing the
chain to skip. Another thing to consider is the fewer number of teeth
the chain is riding on the faster they will wear. i.e. if you allways
ride in your 12t cog it will wear out a lot faster than if you allways
ride in your 21t cog. This is the reason chainrings on the crank take
so much longer to wear. One more thing to remember. If the new chain
only skips in the smallest cog you can replace that cog alone instead
of the whole cassette. Good luck!

Steve Sauter

On 13 Sep 2006 20:07:10 -0700, "cyclingguy"
wrote:

I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a call a
few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I needed a new
chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace the chain (had
approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was told that because
the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my rear cassette (dura ace).
They suggested I replace it before I did futher damage to the drive
train (front chain rings). They said that the teeth on the rear
cassette have been worn to the point where a new chain simply wouldn't
seat in the old cassette teeth and would be skipping all over the
place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

Dear DK,

Wear accumulates.

Chains wear, elongate, and misbehave. Like tires, they have to be
replaced.

If the chains aren't replaced, they start wearing the sprockets more
and more rapidly, with the smallest sprockets wearing fastest and
being the first to start skipping.

After a couple of chains, I usually have to replace my rear cog, a
silly 11-tooth--a nice new chain will skip immediately.

Eventually, I have to replace my front 53-tooth.

You can't stop the process, but you can delay it considerably by
replacing chains as they wear.

Here's Sheldon Brown's detailed explanation of it all, but the main
point is that when a foot ruler shows 1/16th of an inch wear, put on a
new chain:

Well . . .

It would be Sheldon's explanation, but his site is down at the moment,
a rare event. By the time that you read this, it'll probably be up
again at www.harriscyclery.com. Go to the A-Z glossary and look for
chain and follow the links.

If the new chain skips in a particular gear, replace the cassette, or
at least that gear.

If the chain still skips, you should have paid more attention to the
front chain ring and ought to be ashamed of yourself:

http://home.comcast.net/~carlfogel/d.../wornteeth.jpg

Cheers,

Carl Fogel

cyclingguy wrote:
I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a call a
few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I needed a new
chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace the chain (had
approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was told that because
the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my rear cassette (dura
ace). They suggested I replace it before I did futher damage to the
drive train (front chain rings). They said that the teeth on the rear
cassette have been worn to the point where a new chain simply wouldn't
seat in the old cassette teeth and would be skipping all over the
place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

While it's often true that a worn chain has trashed the cassette (and
possibly a chain ring, esp. on a mtb), and that a new chain WILL skip due to
that, this should /not/ be the case in only 1500 road miles.

If I were you, I'd keep both and ride /many/ more miles on that drivetrain.
(Don't tell me, let me guess: they're going to tell you that they already
tossed the old chain? If they do that, FIND A NEW BIKE SHOP! And tell them
why as you head out the door...)

If by chance they haven't removed your chain yet, tell them you'll think
about it and go get the bike. You can measure the chain for wear
yourself -- s/b 12" rivet to rivet; anything over 1/16th inch "stretch" and
replace it. Again, this should not happen in so few miles -- certainly not
enough to ruin your cluster. (Assuming decent conditions?)

Was it working OK before you took it in? Any skipping? Shifting OK?

Don't quote me, but I think they're hosing you.

BTW, it's good -- real good -- to learn how to replace a chain and even a
cassette yourself. Then you can shop around for a good deal on the
components -- especially high-end ones like DuraAce.

Good luck.

Bill S.

cyclingguy wrote:
I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a call a
few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I needed a new
chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace the chain (had
approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was told that because
the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my rear cassette (dura ace).
They suggested I replace it before I did futher damage to the drive
train (front chain rings). They said that the teeth on the rear
cassette have been worn to the point where a new chain simply wouldn't
seat in the old cassette teeth and would be skipping all over the
place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

This is indeed how it works. More details about how this physically
works can be found in the archives of rbt and other places. 1500 miles
is on the low side for this, but it's definitely possible, especially
if you do a lot of riding in one gear. DA cassettes do have better
availability of individual replacement cogs than most, and the bike
shop may have considered that or not, but whether that's a viable
approach depends on how many and which cogs are worn.

My advice is that you might amicably ask the shop whether replacement
cogs that could replace the skipping cogs are available, or would be
prudent to mess with considering whatever state the cassette is in. But
they're probably not trying to rip you off outright; the way
drivetrains wear and the way to maximize chainring life is generally as
they describe, and many shops don't know enough to get this right.

If I were you, I'd keep both and ride /many/ more miles on that
drivetrain. (Don't tell me, let me guess: they're going to tell you that
they already tossed the old chain? If they do that, FIND A NEW BIKE SHOP!
And tell them why as you head out the door...)

I "destroy" chains (wear them beyond 1/16") in about 1800 miles. But
shifting performance deteriorates fairly rapidly before that point, such
that I'll notice a substantial improvement in shifting performance (even
comparing a new chain to an old but just-cleaned & lubed chain) at around
1500 miles.

If I were to leave the chain on and ride "many" additional miles, I may not
see skipping issues for some time, but the shifting performance will
continue to deteriorate, and there will be no doubt that the cassette will
require replacement with the next chain. I'll also be doing quite a bit of
damage to the chainrings, which otherwise will typically last me for about
15k miles, sometimes more, if I replace the chain every 1500 miles or so.

From an economic standpoint, looking at the 6000 mile outlook-

Replace chain every 1500 miles, plus a cassette every five chains. So
actually 7500 miles to the cassette, but for now we'll say just 6000. That
means one $75 cassette and four $20 chains. $155 total.

Replace chain and cassette every 6000 miles, $75 + $20 for $95 total.

So it's costing me an additional $60 to have a better-shifting drivetrain,
per 6k miles. Negating a fair amount of that is that my chainrings will last
much longer.

Having said all that, I don't understand why a shop would suggest replacing
a rear cassette without having even tried a new chain on it first.
Especially with relatively-low mileage on it. I'm all for replacing chains
early & often, but not cassettes.

Hmm. I should also point out that shops often have no reliable means of
testing a new chain under the same conditions as the rider (perhaps the
skipping happens only on climbs and only with a very heavy rider, for
example). So we get bikes that, on our test rides, work just fine, but the
customer gets to his favorite rolling hill and his 230lb diesel body does
things that cause the chain to skip, and he comes back mad at us because we
didn't either find the problem or realize it would likely happen and replace
the setup as a preventive measure.

Hate that.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Bill Sornson" wrote in message
...
cyclingguy wrote:
I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a call a
few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I needed a new
chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace the chain (had
approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was told that because
the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my rear cassette (dura
ace). They suggested I replace it before I did futher damage to the
drive train (front chain rings). They said that the teeth on the rear
cassette have been worn to the point where a new chain simply wouldn't
seat in the old cassette teeth and would be skipping all over the
place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

While it's often true that a worn chain has trashed the cassette (and
possibly a chain ring, esp. on a mtb), and that a new chain WILL skip due
to that, this should /not/ be the case in only 1500 road miles.

If I were you, I'd keep both and ride /many/ more miles on that
drivetrain. (Don't tell me, let me guess: they're going to tell you that
they already tossed the old chain? If they do that, FIND A NEW BIKE SHOP!
And tell them why as you head out the door...)

If by chance they haven't removed your chain yet, tell them you'll think
about it and go get the bike. You can measure the chain for wear
yourself -- s/b 12" rivet to rivet; anything over 1/16th inch "stretch"
and replace it. Again, this should not happen in so few miles --
certainly not enough to ruin your cluster. (Assuming decent conditions?)

Was it working OK before you took it in? Any skipping? Shifting OK?

Don't quote me, but I think they're hosing you.

BTW, it's good -- real good -- to learn how to replace a chain and even a
cassette yourself. Then you can shop around for a good deal on the
components -- especially high-end ones like DuraAce.

Good luck.

Bill S.

Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

From an economic standpoint, looking at the 6000 mile outlook-

Replace chain every 1500 miles, plus a cassette every five chains. So
actually 7500 miles to the cassette, but for now we'll say just 6000.
That means one $75 cassette and four $20 chains. $155 total.

Replace chain and cassette every 6000 miles, $75 + $20 for $95 total.

The OP has (10-speed?) Dura Ace, so won't a cassette cost quite a bit more
than $75?

Otherwise, I agree with all you wrote -- and indeed, I just don't think a
rear cassette should need replacing after 1500 miles (as you point out
below).



So it's costing me an additional $60 to have a better-shifting
drivetrain, per 6k miles. Negating a fair amount of that is that my
chainrings will last much longer.

Having said all that, I don't understand why a shop would suggest
replacing a rear cassette without having even tried a new chain on it
first. Especially with relatively-low mileage on it. I'm all for
replacing chains early & often, but not cassettes.

Hmm. I should also point out that shops often have no reliable means
of testing a new chain under the same conditions as the rider
(perhaps the skipping happens only on climbs and only with a very
heavy rider, for example). So we get bikes that, on our test rides,
work just fine, but the customer gets to his favorite rolling hill
and his 230lb diesel body does things that cause the chain to skip,
and he comes back mad at us because we didn't either find the problem
or realize it would likely happen and replace the setup as a
preventive measure.
Hate that.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Bill Sornson" wrote in message
...
cyclingguy wrote:
I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a
call a few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I
needed a new chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace
the chain (had approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was
told that because the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my
rear cassette (dura ace). They suggested I replace it before I did
futher damage to the drive train (front chain rings). They said
that the teeth on the rear cassette have been worn to the point
where a new chain simply wouldn't seat in the old cassette teeth
and would be skipping all over the place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

While it's often true that a worn chain has trashed the cassette (and
possibly a chain ring, esp. on a mtb), and that a new chain WILL
skip due to that, this should /not/ be the case in only 1500 road
miles. If I were you, I'd keep both and ride /many/ more miles on that
drivetrain. (Don't tell me, let me guess: they're going to tell you
that they already tossed the old chain? If they do that, FIND A NEW
BIKE SHOP! And tell them why as you head out the door...)

If by chance they haven't removed your chain yet, tell them you'll
think about it and go get the bike. You can measure the chain for
wear yourself -- s/b 12" rivet to rivet; anything over 1/16th inch
"stretch" and replace it. Again, this should not happen in so few
miles -- certainly not enough to ruin your cluster. (Assuming
decent conditions?) Was it working OK before you took it in? Any
skipping? Shifting OK?

Don't quote me, but I think they're hosing you.

BTW, it's good -- real good -- to learn how to replace a chain and
even a cassette yourself. Then you can shop around for a good deal
on the components -- especially high-end ones like DuraAce.

Good luck.

Bill S.

On 13 Sep 2006 20:07:10 -0700, "cyclingguy" wrote:

I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a call a
few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I needed a new
chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace the chain (had
approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was told that because
the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my rear cassette (dura ace).
They suggested I replace it before I did futher damage to the drive
train (front chain rings). They said that the teeth on the rear
cassette have been worn to the point where a new chain simply wouldn't
seat in the old cassette teeth and would be skipping all over the
place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

A worn chain in 1500 miles is plausible. I truly doubt it has harmed your
cassette to the point that it should be replaced yet. That is the common failure
mode, a new chain skips on a worn cassette. It is barely possible that with poor
maintenace and crappy storage conditions in a bad climate for drivetrain (Like
my Florida's alternation between rain and sand) you could've worn out that
cassette. That's "barely" and "possible."

Have you actually lubricated and/or cleaned this chain? Has it complained at
all?

I say replace the chain, and go with the cassette as is. I'd ask for a SRAM
chain instead of the Shimano as personal preference and I simply refuse to spend
more for a wear part like a chain unless the expensive version lasts longer.

If it skips after replacing the chain get back to us.

Bike maintenance is really something you should do for yourself. Even one of
those crap $40 Taiwanese tool kits will have gotten you out of this mess.

Let us know how this goes.

Ron

From an economic standpoint, looking at the 6000 mile outlook-

Replace chain every 1500 miles, plus a cassette every five chains. So
actually 7500 miles to the cassette, but for now we'll say just 6000.
That means one $75 cassette and four $20 chains. $155 total.

Replace chain and cassette every 6000 miles, $75 + $20 for $95 total.

The OP has (10-speed?) Dura Ace, so won't a cassette cost quite a bit more
than $75?


Sorry, I was thinking Ultegra. Bike shop owners can't afford DuraAce. At
least not when they have a daughter just starting college.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Bill Sornson" wrote in message
...
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:

From an economic standpoint, looking at the 6000 mile outlook-

Replace chain every 1500 miles, plus a cassette every five chains. So
actually 7500 miles to the cassette, but for now we'll say just 6000.
That means one $75 cassette and four $20 chains. $155 total.

Replace chain and cassette every 6000 miles, $75 + $20 for $95 total.

The OP has (10-speed?) Dura Ace, so won't a cassette cost quite a bit more
than $75?

Otherwise, I agree with all you wrote -- and indeed, I just don't think a
rear cassette should need replacing after 1500 miles (as you point out
below).



So it's costing me an additional $60 to have a better-shifting
drivetrain, per 6k miles. Negating a fair amount of that is that my
chainrings will last much longer.

Having said all that, I don't understand why a shop would suggest
replacing a rear cassette without having even tried a new chain on it
first. Especially with relatively-low mileage on it. I'm all for
replacing chains early & often, but not cassettes.

Hmm. I should also point out that shops often have no reliable means
of testing a new chain under the same conditions as the rider
(perhaps the skipping happens only on climbs and only with a very
heavy rider, for example). So we get bikes that, on our test rides,
work just fine, but the customer gets to his favorite rolling hill
and his 230lb diesel body does things that cause the chain to skip,
and he comes back mad at us because we didn't either find the problem
or realize it would likely happen and replace the setup as a
preventive measure.
Hate that.

--Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReactionBicycles.com


"Bill Sornson" wrote in message
...
cyclingguy wrote:
I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a
call a few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I
needed a new chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace
the chain (had approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was
told that because the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my
rear cassette (dura ace). They suggested I replace it before I did
futher damage to the drive train (front chain rings). They said
that the teeth on the rear cassette have been worn to the point
where a new chain simply wouldn't seat in the old cassette teeth
and would be skipping all over the place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

While it's often true that a worn chain has trashed the cassette (and
possibly a chain ring, esp. on a mtb), and that a new chain WILL
skip due to that, this should /not/ be the case in only 1500 road
miles. If I were you, I'd keep both and ride /many/ more miles on that
drivetrain. (Don't tell me, let me guess: they're going to tell you
that they already tossed the old chain? If they do that, FIND A NEW
BIKE SHOP! And tell them why as you head out the door...)

If by chance they haven't removed your chain yet, tell them you'll
think about it and go get the bike. You can measure the chain for
wear yourself -- s/b 12" rivet to rivet; anything over 1/16th inch
"stretch" and replace it. Again, this should not happen in so few
miles -- certainly not enough to ruin your cluster. (Assuming
decent conditions?) Was it working OK before you took it in? Any
skipping? Shifting OK?

Don't quote me, but I think they're hosing you.

BTW, it's good -- real good -- to learn how to replace a chain and
even a cassette yourself. Then you can shop around for a good deal
on the components -- especially high-end ones like DuraAce.

Good luck.

Bill S.

On 13 Sep 2006 20:07:10 -0700, "cyclingguy"
wrote:

I just took my road bike in for a simple tune up and received a call a
few hours later from the bike shop informing me that I needed a new
chain. I agreed and so I told them to please replace the chain (had
approx 1500 miles on it). A short time later I was told that because
the chain was so worn out it had destroyed my rear cassette (dura ace).
They suggested I replace it before I did futher damage to the drive
train (front chain rings). They said that the teeth on the rear
cassette have been worn to the point where a new chain simply wouldn't
seat in the old cassette teeth and would be skipping all over the
place.

Is this true? I have never heard of such a thing. The bike (Fuji
Professional, Dura Ace components) has about 1500 miles on it total.

Any input or advice will be greatly appreciated.

At 1500 miles, the chain might be worn out (a lot depends on how much
of the time you run severely cross-chained, how heavy you are, whether
the chain has been lubed effectively, etc) but the cassette should
not. An inexperienced tech might misread the factory's fancy shaping
of certain of the cassette sprockets' teeth as wear, and declare the
cassette dead when in fact it's perfectly good; if you trust them
otherwise, I'd say to let them replace just the chain, and see whether
you have any problems with it skipping afterwards.
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