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[Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 30th 07, 12:52 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Tony Raven[_2_]
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Posts: 2,162
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

Four years for murdering five people with a car while drunk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6256258.stm

Tony


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell
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  #2  
Old June 30th 07, 02:35 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Tony Raven[_2_]
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Posts: 2,162
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

Ace wrote on 30/06/2007 13:58 +0100:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:52:44 +0100, Tony Raven
wrote:

Four years for murdering five people with a car while drunk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6256258.stm


Can't you read English? He's been sentenced to eight and a half years,
which is very near the maximum of 10 that the offence could carry.


Wrong again. "Ben Morphey was told he would serve half of an
eight-and-a-half year jail term"


--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell
  #3  
Old June 30th 07, 02:44 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Simon Brooke
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Posts: 4,493
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

in message , Ace
') wrote:

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:52:44 +0100, Tony Raven
wrote:

Four years for murdering five people with a car while drunk

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6256258.stm


Can't you read English? He's been sentenced to eight and a half years,
which is very near the maximum of 10 that the offence could carry.

What would you have wanted the court to do?


More to the point he's been given a ten year driving ban. Frankly, what I'd
like to see is for the courts to give long *suspended* sentences (up to
and including life sentences) for this sort of thing, but to release the
convicted drivers on licence more or less immediately. They would only be
jailed if they drove a motor vehicle while banned - in which case, being
out on licence, they could be jailed immediately with no need to go back
to court. Towards the end of their sentence they would then have to train
for and sit a mandatory advanced driving test, and unless they passed it
they wouldn't get their driving licence back.

Prison as vengeance doesn't make sense and isn't economic. Prison is only
justified in so far as it either rehabilitates the offender, or protects
the public. If the offender is an irresponsible driver, then in nine cases
out of ten (s)he will rehabilitate in time just be growing older. In the
mean time the public is protected just by preventing them from driving.

They get to continue living their life and earning their living, the
exchequer collects the fine and their continued income tax (and doesn't
have to pay to keep them in prison), and the public are safe. Result, I
would say.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
;; then Perl is executable line noise
-- seen on Slashdot.
  #4  
Old June 30th 07, 03:16 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Tony Raven[_2_]
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Posts: 2,162
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

Simon Brooke wrote on 30/06/2007 14:44 +0100:

Prison is only
justified in so far as it either rehabilitates the offender, or protects
the public.


You forgot prison "pour encourager les autres.

--
Tony

"The most savage controversies are those about matters as to which there
is no good evidence either way."
- Bertrand Russell
  #5  
Old June 30th 07, 03:29 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
raisethe
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 534
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

On 30 Jun, 14:44, Simon Brooke wrote:
in message , Ace

') wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:52:44 +0100, Tony Raven
wrote:


Four years for murdering five people with a car while drunk


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6256258.stm


Can't you read English? He's been sentenced to eight and a half years,
which is very near the maximum of 10 that the offence could carry.


What would you have wanted the court to do?


More to the point he's been given a ten year driving ban. Frankly, what I'd
like to see is for the courts to give long *suspended* sentences (up to
and including life sentences) for this sort of thing, but to release the
convicted drivers on licence more or less immediately. They would only be
jailed if they drove a motor vehicle while banned - in which case, being
out on licence, they could be jailed immediately with no need to go back
to court. Towards the end of their sentence they would then have to train
for and sit a mandatory advanced driving test, and unless they passed it
they wouldn't get their driving licence back.

Prison as vengeance doesn't make sense and isn't economic. Prison is only
justified in so far as it either rehabilitates the offender, or protects
the public. If the offender is an irresponsible driver, then in nine cases
out of ten (s)he will rehabilitate in time just be growing older. In the
mean time the public is protected just by preventing them from driving.

They get to continue living their life and earning their living, the
exchequer collects the fine and their continued income tax (and doesn't
have to pay to keep them in prison), and the public are safe. Result, I
would say.

--
(Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
;; then Perl is executable line noise
-- seen on Slashdot.


Exactly where is the punishment here? Other than not being able to
drive an MV (which isn't really a big deal anyway) the driver gets
away with it.

So in addition to the measures you propose, the killer should also pay
for his crime financially, by having his assets seized and by
attaching a deduction to his future earnings.

He should also be publicly shamed, via the local media and through
public display in the local market place.

  #6  
Old June 30th 07, 03:45 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Tom Crispin
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,229
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 14:44:04 +0100, Simon Brooke
wrote:

Prison as vengeance doesn't make sense and isn't economic. Prison is only
justified in so far as it either rehabilitates the offender, or protects
the public.


It is also justified as a deterrent to others.
  #7  
Old June 30th 07, 03:49 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Paul Boyd[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 423
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

On 30/06/2007 15:29, raisethe said,

He should also be publicly shamed, via the local media


That happens anyway, usually even before the verdict is announced.

and through public display in the local market place.


....but that would be good, if you can find any local markets these days :-)

--
Paul Boyd
http://www.paul-boyd.co.uk/
  #8  
Old June 30th 07, 03:58 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Nick[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 77
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

raise the wrote:
On 30 Jun, 14:44, Simon Brooke wrote:
in message , Ace

') wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:52:44 +0100, Tony Raven
wrote:
Four years for murdering five people with a car while drunk
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6256258.stm
Can't you read English? He's been sentenced to eight and a half years,
which is very near the maximum of 10 that the offence could carry.
What would you have wanted the court to do?

More to the point he's been given a ten year driving ban. Frankly, what I'd
like to see is for the courts to give long *suspended* sentences (up to
and including life sentences) for this sort of thing, but to release the
convicted drivers on licence more or less immediately. They would only be
jailed if they drove a motor vehicle while banned - in which case, being
out on licence, they could be jailed immediately with no need to go back
to court. Towards the end of their sentence they would then have to train
for and sit a mandatory advanced driving test, and unless they passed it
they wouldn't get their driving licence back.

Prison as vengeance doesn't make sense and isn't economic. Prison is only
justified in so far as it either rehabilitates the offender, or protects
the public. If the offender is an irresponsible driver, then in nine cases
out of ten (s)he will rehabilitate in time just be growing older. In the
mean time the public is protected just by preventing them from driving.

They get to continue living their life and earning their living, the
exchequer collects the fine and their continued income tax (and doesn't
have to pay to keep them in prison), and the public are safe. Result, I
would say.

--
(Simon Brooke)http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
;; then Perl is executable line noise
-- seen on Slashdot.


Exactly where is the punishment here? Other than not being able to
drive an MV (which isn't really a big deal anyway) the driver gets
away with it.


Punishment?

What we are really interested in is preventing the behaviour/crime, both
in the offender and in others. Like Simon I suspect prison has as a
punishment is of very little deterrent value in cases like this.

The logic goes that because people don't expect an accident they don't
consider the penalties and hence even severe penalties have very little
deterrent effect.

It is far more likely that drink drivers do consider the probability of
being caught for drink driving, but without any accident involved and it
is this penalty that they will consider and be deterred by.

The good thing about prolonged driving bans are that they help prevent
recidivism and that they don't cost the tax payer.

So in addition to the measures you propose, the killer should also pay
for his crime financially, by having his assets seized and by
attaching a deduction to his future earnings.


One would hope that there is the potential for a civil case to assess
damages.


He should also be publicly shamed, via the local media and through
public display in the local market place.


Well the bbc website does appear to have named and shamed him.
  #9  
Old June 30th 07, 04:05 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Alex Potter
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 328
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 15:45:39 +0100, Tom Crispin wrote:

It is also justified as a deterrent to others.


Given current sentencing policy, I don't think that justification holds up.

--
Regards
Alex
The From address above is a spam-trap.
The Reply-To address is valid
  #10  
Old June 30th 07, 04:20 PM posted to uk.rec.cycling
Rob Morley
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 7,173
Default [Fwd: Death driver jail term criticised]

In article , Nick
says...
raise the wrote:
On 30 Jun, 14:44, Simon Brooke wrote:
in message , Ace

') wrote:
On Sat, 30 Jun 2007 12:52:44 +0100, Tony Raven
wrote:
Four years for murdering five people with a car while drunk
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/suffolk/6256258.stm
Can't you read English? He's been sentenced to eight and a half years,
which is very near the maximum of 10 that the offence could carry.
What would you have wanted the court to do?
More to the point he's been given a ten year driving ban. Frankly, what I'd
like to see is for the courts to give long *suspended* sentences (up to
and including life sentences) for this sort of thing, but to release the
convicted drivers on licence more or less immediately. They would only be
jailed if they drove a motor vehicle while banned - in which case, being
out on licence, they could be jailed immediately with no need to go back
to court. Towards the end of their sentence they would then have to train
for and sit a mandatory advanced driving test, and unless they passed it
they wouldn't get their driving licence back.

Prison as vengeance doesn't make sense and isn't economic. Prison is only
justified in so far as it either rehabilitates the offender, or protects
the public. If the offender is an irresponsible driver, then in nine cases
out of ten (s)he will rehabilitate in time just be growing older. In the
mean time the public is protected just by preventing them from driving.

They get to continue living their life and earning their living, the
exchequer collects the fine and their continued income tax (and doesn't
have to pay to keep them in prison), and the public are safe. Result, I
would say.

--
(Simon Brooke)
http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;; If Python is executable pseudocode,
;; then Perl is executable line noise
-- seen on Slashdot.


Exactly where is the punishment here? Other than not being able to
drive an MV (which isn't really a big deal anyway) the driver gets
away with it.


Punishment?

What we are really interested in is preventing the behaviour/crime, both
in the offender and in others. Like Simon I suspect prison has as a
punishment is of very little deterrent value in cases like this.

The logic goes that because people don't expect an accident they don't
consider the penalties and hence even severe penalties have very little
deterrent effect.

It is far more likely that drink drivers do consider the probability of
being caught for drink driving, but without any accident involved and it
is this penalty that they will consider and be deterred by.

The good thing about prolonged driving bans are that they help prevent
recidivism and that they don't cost the tax payer.

Except that banned drivers often continue to drive, repeatedly catching
them and putting them through the courts costs money, supervising their
community service costs money ...
 




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