How flat are The Netherlands?

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 1:22:29 AM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 12:55:41 PM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

the Appalachians. Like most bike tourists, I found they were much
tougher than the Rockies, even though not nearly as high. Passes we
rode in the Rockies tended to be very long, but mostly moderate
grades. The Appalachian climbs are often much, much steeper, and when
you've conquered one, you're immediately looking at another.

Well, steepness correlates negatively with the length of a climb. I
played around with pass statistics a lot using the data from

http://www.salite.ch/struttura/default.asp?ultime=10

a huge database of 12000 (mostly European) climbs. Unfortunately the
English and German versions are broken for quite some time, so a working
knowledge of Italian helps.

An interesting question is: Which is the steepest climb for a given
length or (equivalent) the longest for a given average gradient? There
are not many of these "Pareto-dominant" (the mathematical concept behind
the question) climbs, some nice examples (this is not anecdotal evident,
but measured numbers).

- The village of Buitonne in Switzerland can be reached from the Rhone
valley. It is 2.92 km with an average gradient of 20.1 %. You read
that right. Riding this was quite an experience.

- In Italy there is Pozza/San Glisente, a dead-end road of 8.2 km with
17.7 %.

- In Austria there a five climbs from the Ziller valley to a panorama
ridge road. All sport 10 km 10 %. Try all for a nice day trip.

- In the US, there is Mount Washington with 12.4 km at 11.5 %. It is the
ONLY listed mainland US climb with a difficulty index (sum of L * p^2
over all sections, L being the length of the section, p the gradient
in percent) higher than 1200 (still bread and butter in the Alps, see
below).

- In Sicily, there is the volcano Etna with 40 km at 7.3 %.

- In Spain, El Teide, with 63.7 km at 3.6 % (sounds like Rockies ...)

- In the Andes, Conococha with 117.2 km at 3.5 %.

There are NO famous climbs ridden in Le Tour, Giro or Vuelta present in
this Pareto list.

The toughest fully paved one in France is the ski station Val Thorens
with 1396. All five climbs in the Ziller valley (above) are above
1400. The Monte Grappa in Italy alone offers 9 climbs from about 1200 up
to 1700. Italy has 28 climbs tougher than 1500, up to 2700 (this is
Pozza from above).

For comparison, the highest pass in the Alps, the Col de l'Iseran (48 km
at 4.1 %, steepest kilometer at 7 %) has a difficulty of a meagre
1094. The oh so famous L'Alpe d'Huez has only 1/3 of the length of the
Etna (see above), but roughly the same gradient. 913 difficulty is the
result, which is a Joe Average for the Alps. There are literally
hundreds of climbs more difficult.

On average, the French climbs are the easiest in the Alps (corollary: Le
Tour must have the best marketing), then comes Switzerland. Austria
builds tough roads, and the Italian roads are sometimes crazy. In all of
the Alps there are only 5 paved passes 10 km AND 10 %. Most of the
really difficult stuff are dead-ends.

Now I am very interested to learn which US climbs might have a L * p^2
difficulty higher than 1000. 5 km at 20 %, 10 km at 10 %, or 40 km at 5
% will do. And all climbs more difficult than, say, 1500 (a very rare
breed) will imprint a lasting memory into your brain.

Looking forward to your input!

Best regards

Axel

P. S.: Mouna Kea, Onion Valley Road, Mount Baldy and Mount Evans get
over 1000.


Powder Mountain is a hard climb in Salt Lake. https://pjammcycling.com/climb/93.Powder%20Mountain It has some ridiculous pitches. It goes to a ski resort, and I wouldn't want to drive it in the winter for fear of flying off a cliff descending.

I'm too old for the uber-hard climbs. You get to the 20% grades, and its just not fun. You run out of gears and just grind along until you say "f*** this." At least in the Alps you get some great scenery. Onion Valley and some of the So Cal climbs are just grueling, brown, hot and not particularly scenic. The grades are not that steep in the Oregon Cascades, but at least you get some nice scenery, and the elevation is not terrible O2-wise. When I go ride with my son in Salt Lake, I'm panting like some asthmatic pug.. My son slows down and keeps saying "are you alright?" Yes, damn it! Must .. . . keep . . . riding.

-- Jay Beattie.

Like Jobst would say if he were he "Man up!" -- AJ

No, seriously. On my now defunct blog I had some obits and memories of Jobst by people who'd known him for decades -- and virtually everyone mentioned his attitudes on various Death Rides, and how he would suddenly, on a road bike, without warning dive off the road and go cross-country (there was one amazing photograph which showed a crazily dangerous if short descent into a pool about thirty feet almost straight down from the road, with Jobst standing in the pool holding his bike up above the water, less crazy cyclists looking down from the road), or wouldn't stop for a hamburger when people were collapsing around him. He'd straighten you out in a jiffy.

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 2:22:29 AM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 22, 2020 at 12:55:41 PM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:
Frank Krygowski writes:

the Appalachians. Like most bike tourists, I found they were much
tougher than the Rockies, even though not nearly as high. Passes we
rode in the Rockies tended to be very long, but mostly moderate
grades. The Appalachian climbs are often much, much steeper, and when
you've conquered one, you're immediately looking at another.

Well, steepness correlates negatively with the length of a climb. I
played around with pass statistics a lot using the data from

http://www.salite.ch/struttura/default.asp?ultime=10

a huge database of 12000 (mostly European) climbs. Unfortunately the
English and German versions are broken for quite some time, so a working
knowledge of Italian helps.

An interesting question is: Which is the steepest climb for a given
length or (equivalent) the longest for a given average gradient? There
are not many of these "Pareto-dominant" (the mathematical concept behind
the question) climbs, some nice examples (this is not anecdotal evident,
but measured numbers).

- The village of Buitonne in Switzerland can be reached from the Rhone
valley. It is 2.92 km with an average gradient of 20.1 %. You read
that right. Riding this was quite an experience.

- In Italy there is Pozza/San Glisente, a dead-end road of 8.2 km with
17.7 %.

- In Austria there a five climbs from the Ziller valley to a panorama
ridge road. All sport 10 km 10 %. Try all for a nice day trip.

- In the US, there is Mount Washington with 12.4 km at 11.5 %. It is the
ONLY listed mainland US climb with a difficulty index (sum of L * p^2
over all sections, L being the length of the section, p the gradient
in percent) higher than 1200 (still bread and butter in the Alps, see
below).

- In Sicily, there is the volcano Etna with 40 km at 7.3 %.

- In Spain, El Teide, with 63.7 km at 3.6 % (sounds like Rockies ...)

- In the Andes, Conococha with 117.2 km at 3.5 %.

There are NO famous climbs ridden in Le Tour, Giro or Vuelta present in
this Pareto list.

The toughest fully paved one in France is the ski station Val Thorens
with 1396. All five climbs in the Ziller valley (above) are above
1400. The Monte Grappa in Italy alone offers 9 climbs from about 1200 up
to 1700. Italy has 28 climbs tougher than 1500, up to 2700 (this is
Pozza from above).

For comparison, the highest pass in the Alps, the Col de l'Iseran (48 km
at 4.1 %, steepest kilometer at 7 %) has a difficulty of a meagre
1094. The oh so famous L'Alpe d'Huez has only 1/3 of the length of the
Etna (see above), but roughly the same gradient. 913 difficulty is the
result, which is a Joe Average for the Alps. There are literally
hundreds of climbs more difficult.

On average, the French climbs are the easiest in the Alps (corollary: Le
Tour must have the best marketing), then comes Switzerland. Austria
builds tough roads, and the Italian roads are sometimes crazy. In all of
the Alps there are only 5 paved passes 10 km AND 10 %. Most of the
really difficult stuff are dead-ends.

Now I am very interested to learn which US climbs might have a L * p^2
difficulty higher than 1000. 5 km at 20 %, 10 km at 10 %, or 40 km at 5
% will do. And all climbs more difficult than, say, 1500 (a very rare
breed) will imprint a lasting memory into your brain.

Looking forward to your input!

Best regards

Axel

P. S.: Mouna Kea, Onion Valley Road, Mount Baldy and Mount Evans get
over 1000.


Powder Mountain is a hard climb in Salt Lake. https://pjammcycling.com/climb/93.Powder%20Mountain It has some ridiculous pitches. It goes to a ski resort, and I wouldn't want to drive it in the winter for fear of flying off a cliff descending.

I'm too old for the uber-hard climbs. You get to the 20% grades, and its just not fun. You run out of gears and just grind along until you say "f*** this." At least in the Alps you get some great scenery. Onion Valley and some of the So Cal climbs are just grueling, brown, hot and not particularly scenic. The grades are not that steep in the Oregon Cascades, but at least you get some nice scenery, and the elevation is not terrible O2-wise. When I go ride with my son in Salt Lake, I'm panting like some asthmatic pug.. My son slows down and keeps saying "are you alright?" Yes, damn it! Must .. . . keep . . . riding.

-- Jay Beattie.

+1 I'm done with the stupid steep climbs with no view. The last one was the Mortirolo. What a stupid climb was that. A goat path through a forrest. I remember the Kitzbuhler Horn in the mist. 1250 m elevation gain in 9.7 km and nothing to see. Next time I will bring my gravel bike with the proper gearing. Austria has a lot a hard climbs.

Lou

writes:

+1 I'm done with the stupid steep climbs with no view. The last one
was the Mortirolo. What a stupid climb was that. A goat path through a
forrest. I remember the Kitzbuhler Horn in the mist. 1250 m elevation
gain in 9.7 km and nothing to see.

Two mistakes on your side. (-;

On the Mortirolo (I assume you came up the classic ramp from Mazzo or
Tovo) do not directly go downhill to Monno, but rather take the
beautiful, quiet and scenic ridge to the southwest, which offers
alternating sight into both valleys.

http://brouter.de/brouter-web/#map=1...46,46. 169124

The Kitzbuehler Horn in fact is a great panorama road. If you go all the
way up to the radio station at the summit, you will have terrific view
all around. Unless, that is, you do this in the mist ...

Next time!
--
-X- | in memoriam John Conway
--X | 1937-2020
XXX | A glider from his "Game of Life"

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 10:52:19 AM UTC+2, Axel Reichert wrote:
writes:

+1 I'm done with the stupid steep climbs with no view. The last one
was the Mortirolo. What a stupid climb was that. A goat path through a
forrest. I remember the Kitzbuhler Horn in the mist. 1250 m elevation
gain in 9.7 km and nothing to see.

Two mistakes on your side. (-;

On the Mortirolo (I assume you came up the classic ramp from Mazzo or
Tovo) do not directly go downhill to Monno, but rather take the
beautiful, quiet and scenic ridge to the southwest, which offers
alternating sight into both valleys.

http://brouter.de/brouter-web/#map=1...46,46. 169124


We started in Bormio to Mazzo, Mortirolo, downhill to Monno, Ponte di Legno, Gavia and downhill to Bormio again. A brutal ride was that.

The Kitzbuehler Horn in fact is a great panorama road. If you go all the
way up to the radio station at the summit, you will have terrific view
all around. Unless, that is, you do this in the mist ...

Next time!

The problem with Austria is that it is difficult to do roundtrips from one base camp. That is what we do. Best place so far to do that are Corvara in the dolomites and Barcelonette in France.

Lou

jbeattie writes:

https://pjammcycling.com/climb/93.Powder%20Mountain

Thanks, great site. Now do you know what "Fiets" in the "Climbing Card"
on that page means?

It is Dutch for "bicycle" and the name of the magazine which "invented"
the formula for the climbing difficulty! Indeed you will find at the
bottom of

https://pjammcycling.com/zone/80.Wor...Cycling-Climbs

the reference and the used formula. It includes some absolute height
correction for lack of oxygen. This makes sense if you go very high, but
I would start this only 2000 m above sea level, not 1000 m.

With this site I am now able to answer my original question myself
(assuming that pjammcycling.com is as well maintained for the US as
salite.ch is for Europe). (-:

Omitting the height correction (for better comparison with salite.ch),
we get the following list of 18 climbs with a difficulty of at least
1000 in the US:

1000 Guardsman Pass
1020 Mineral King Road
1030 Dawson Saddle
1040 Sherman Pass
1060 Whitney Portal
1070 Mt Equinox
1080 Powder Mountain
1080 White Mountain
1100 Nate Harrison Grade
1120 Mauna Loa
1160 Horseshoe Meadows
1250 Onion Valley
1260 Waipoli Road
1400 Kaloko Drive
1450 Pikes Peak
1620 Haleakala
1730 Mount Washington
2620 Mauna Kea

So there are 7 above 1200, 3 above 1500, and 1 above 2000 for half a
continent plus an archipelago 3000 km off-shore.

In the Alps there are 183 above 1200, 54 above 1500, 10 above 2000 for
an area the size of South Dakota.

This is not about bragging rights, I just got locked into my statistics
mode and wanted to share the results. It helped me to put some data on
things of which I previously had only anecdotal evidence. (-;

Best regards

Axel
--
-X- | in memoriam John Conway
--X | 1937-2020
XXX | A glider from his "Game of Life"

writes:

Ponte di Legno, Gavia

Ah, the Gavia, so beautiful. I have to do the southern side, though,
only did it from Bormio (after Stelvio).

A brutal ride was that

I can imagine!

roundtrips from one base camp. That is what we do. Best place so far
to do that are Corvara in the dolomites and Barcelonette in France.

Cortina d'Ampezzo? Briancon? Bolzano? Merano? And, especially,
Andermatt?

Axel

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 2:16:55 PM UTC+2, Axel Reichert wrote:
writes:

Ponte di Legno, Gavia

Ah, the Gavia, so beautiful. I have to do the southern side, though,
only did it from Bormio (after Stelvio).

A brutal ride was that

I can imagine!

roundtrips from one base camp. That is what we do. Best place so far
to do that are Corvara in the dolomites and Barcelonette in France.

Cortina d'Ampezzo? Briancon? Bolzano? Merano? And, especially,
Andermatt?

Axel

Yes Cortina d'Ampezzo. Briancon also. Bolzano is OK. I passed through Merano on a one way trip. Hmmm. Andermatt definitely. I once stayed in Innertkirchen for a long weekend. Grimsel, Furka and Susten the first day and the same passes the other way round the other (third) day. Spectacular views. Andermatt is on that route if I recall correctly.

Lou, going for a recovery ride dead flat. No high way overpasses and ferry ramps ;-)

writes:

[Base for round trips]

passed through Merano on a one way trip. Hmmm.

There are a couple of nice dead-ends in the Etsch valley up to Reschen
pass.

Andermatt definitely. I once stayed in Innertkirchen for a long
weekend. Grimsel, Furka and Susten the first day and the same passes
the other way round the other (third) day. Spectacular
views. Andermatt is on that route if I recall correctly.

Yes, and by far the better base, since you can do Furka, Nufenen,
Gotthard and Gotthard, Lukmanier, Oberalp.

Axel

On Saturday, May 23, 2020 at 4:27:21 AM UTC-7, Axel Reichert wrote:
jbeattie writes:

https://pjammcycling.com/climb/93.Powder%20Mountain

Thanks, great site. Now do you know what "Fiets" in the "Climbing Card"
on that page means?

It is Dutch for "bicycle" and the name of the magazine which "invented"
the formula for the climbing difficulty! Indeed you will find at the
bottom of

https://pjammcycling.com/zone/80.Wor...Cycling-Climbs

the reference and the used formula. It includes some absolute height
correction for lack of oxygen. This makes sense if you go very high, but
I would start this only 2000 m above sea level, not 1000 m.

With this site I am now able to answer my original question myself
(assuming that pjammcycling.com is as well maintained for the US as
salite.ch is for Europe). (-:

Omitting the height correction (for better comparison with salite.ch),
we get the following list of 18 climbs with a difficulty of at least
1000 in the US:

1000 Guardsman Pass
1020 Mineral King Road
1030 Dawson Saddle
1040 Sherman Pass
1060 Whitney Portal
1070 Mt Equinox
1080 Powder Mountain
1080 White Mountain
1100 Nate Harrison Grade
1120 Mauna Loa
1160 Horseshoe Meadows
1250 Onion Valley
1260 Waipoli Road
1400 Kaloko Drive
1450 Pikes Peak
1620 Haleakala
1730 Mount Washington
2620 Mauna Kea

So there are 7 above 1200, 3 above 1500, and 1 above 2000 for half a
continent plus an archipelago 3000 km off-shore.

In the Alps there are 183 above 1200, 54 above 1500, 10 above 2000 for
an area the size of South Dakota.

This is not about bragging rights, I just got locked into my statistics
mode and wanted to share the results. It helped me to put some data on
things of which I previously had only anecdotal evidence. (-;

Best regards

Axel

The Alps are spectacular geologically and topographically, but more importantly, people have been building roads and social paths through them for thousands of years. Our highest mountains are in Alaska under snow and many smaller ranges that are Alps-ish, like the Tetons, don't have roads through them. https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nd_tetons..jpg You're not going to get the closing sequence of Sound of Music with a musical family fleeing from one cattle ranch in Wyoming to another. They would be jumping on a plane in Casper headed to the Grand Ole Opry in Nashville.

That list of US climbs starts with Guardsman Pass in Utah. That's a soul sucking climb from the Park City side for an old guy, particularly since its all at elevation. By the way, watch your brakes on the way down:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hRM3bFXlyNk Knowing that there were 100 of those would not make me feel any better.

I'd go to the Alps for the views and the fact that they are such a social place -- that would be the draw. I'm going to do that when the plague ends. Maybe play the alpine horns and wear lederhosen -- be an annoying US tourist, rent a bike and go creep up some pass and drink beer at the top. Pet a cow with a bell on it and do a selfie.

IMO, just getting elevation is neurotic. My son lives in SLC (and was on the Tour of Utah media crew the year after that crash on Guardsman) and has a friend who did 32,000 feet of climbing (divide by three) on a neighborhood street -- over and over just to get his Everest and a bit more. Last weekend,the same guy did Little Cottonwood seven times. https://pjammcycling.com/climb/148.L...nwood%20Canyon And not slowly. His best time put him in 15th place on Strava, with first place being held by Sepp Kuss followed by a bunch of domestic and second-string Euro pros. But I mean really, riding the same climb over and over to rack up elevation? I'd rather be weeding my lawn.

SLC is an interesting place because all the pretty riding is in the Wasatch, so you get leisure riders doing giant climbs. The easy climbs like Emigration Canyon are an ant-trail of cyclists on the weekends and during the epidemic. Coming from sea level, I'm always hypoxic riding in Salt Lake, so I have many fond memories of chasing my son up climbs. I think. And orange spots before my eyes -- and prickly cold arms on a hot day.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 5/23/2020 12:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:

IMO, just getting elevation is neurotic. My son lives in SLC (and was on the Tour of Utah media crew the year after that crash on Guardsman) and has a friend who did 32,000 feet of climbing (divide by three) on a neighborhood street -- over and over just to get his Everest and a bit more. Last weekend,the same guy did Little Cottonwood seven times. https://pjammcycling.com/climb/148.L...nwood%20Canyon And not slowly. His best time put him in 15th place on Strava, with first place being held by Sepp Kuss followed by a bunch of domestic and second-string Euro pros. But I mean really, riding the same climb over and over to rack up elevation? I'd rather be weeding my lawn.

I've never been a fan of climbing. I used to be fairly good at it - or
at least, that's what others told me - but I actually wrote an article
in an old issue of _Bicycling_ magazine about using USGS maps to avoid
the hills.

I have (younger) good friends who frequently do "hill repeats" rides
using some nearby valleys. Climb, descend, climb, descend, repeat until
you drop. I've never been on one of those rides.

It does seem masochistic - much like doing a ride longer than 100 miles
- but I guess the benefit is gaining the strength and confidence to be
able to ride anywhere at all. A couple of those friends are planning to
do yet another tour of the entire Skyline Drive, assuming the virus
situation permits it. I've done only a small part of that route, and I
admit to being jealous.

--
- Frank Krygowski