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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
Howard Kveck wrote in
: snip If only you could have found a way to work in "helmets"... I was going to, but I didn't want to cross-post to rbt and everyone would have thought I was trolling. -- Bill Asher |
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#62
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
"Robert Chung" wrote in
: William Asher wrote: It would sort of be like Canada, only I still wouldn't understand a word the train conducter was saying. It's sort of like pig latin but instead of adding "ay" to the end of each word they add it to the end of each sentence. There's also the weird thing they do with the "ou" sound so it's almost Scottish. -- Bill Asher |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
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#65
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
Tom Kunich wrote: wrote in message oups.com... I am not aware of these studies, nor am I a statistician able to make sense of any results. I think my observations may be usefull for people to think about what sorts of information is useful to compare, and what sort of questions can be raised given what we do know. Any statistics that show what actually happens does not necessarily give a picture of what is possible. Income mobility in the upper 3/4 of income is not very interesting, It is what "keeps the poor down" that is interesting. This is obviously an unanswerable question, but consider this: A poor 2nd generation kid from Guatemala who lives in LA in a crap neigborhood with crap schools, and a 2nd generation Algerian kid who lives in a crap suburb of Paris. If they both stay out of trouble and g oto school, which one is going to have more obstables to attaining a "normal" life? The kid in LA has to "act white" and wear a shirt and tie at some call-center job and work his way up to manager after a few years and then he is there. I contend that the Algerian kid will have more obstacles with "acting French", getting a job, getting promoted, etc. There are obvioulsy racial/ethnic issues that compound this, but they are part of the picture. While I'm not exactly sure that I agree with your particular examples I do agree with your thought. As for the examples themselves - the USA is white. Got that? That's the STANDARD. If people want to relate to whites they have to act white. And acting white isn't betraying your race as you seem to imply. It means being clean and polite and speaking in clear English. Other than that there is essentially NO LIMIT to what a man can do. The pretense that someone that sits on their ass and does nothing and claims that it's because he's being discriminated against ain't going to hack it. I didn't mean to imply that acting white was an obstacle or some negative thing at all. I only meant that they would have to get with the program. The term "acting white" is used by poor minorities themselves to describe doing well in school, getting a job, and generally not being a ****-up. Simialrly in France, the immagrant kids (even tose who are 2nd, 3rd gen) refer to all white people in France as "the French". They don't even consider themselves French, that is apparently something reserved for the white people there. The same goes for poor white trash. A white kid who lives in a trailer-park in Riverside next to a meth-lab is also going to have to clean up his act to get the same call-center job, but he can, just like the Guatemalan kid. Joseph |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
Robert Chung wrote: wrote: The question is [...] how much oppurtunity do they have to change their situation if they choose to do so. If that's your question, then you're talking about individual income mobility. For that particular measure, the US tends to rank behind most European countries. I am not aware of these studies [...] Income mobility in the upper 3/4 of income is not very interesting, It is what "keeps the poor down" that is interesting. Then you haven't been looking, I thought you were referring to a particular study published in a semi mainstream magazine. I do follow the topic to some degree otherwise. and you've just explained why your stories about the Europeans you know who emigrated to the US for better opportunities aren't particularly interesting: they probably would have stayed in the upper 3/4 of income even had they stayed in Europe. Not at all. The only people I know of who emigrated were either dirt poor, starving, or living in a dangerous police-state. The entire field of income and mobility focuses on "what keeps the poor down" and there are many, many books and journals available at your nearest university library. I live in the sticks! No "lie-berries" here! Joseph |
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
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#68
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
in message .com,
') wrote: As for poverty in th eUS, squalor does not equal poverty. Some poor run-down neigborhoods you may have seen house people with a level of comfort and income that would surprise you. Cars, DVD players, computers, microwave ovens, all the modern conveniences you can buy. Compare Seattle with Kuala Lumpur, both cities I know a little. In Seattle, miles and miles and miles and miles of trailer parks, people living in little boxes made of high density fibreboard and aluminium sheet, in a climate with very high rainfall and often very cold. Electric cables strung about any old how on crooked, leaning poles which would make any European power engineer wince. Sure, the people in those fibreboard boxes have all sorts of consumer 'durables', where durables means things which will be obsolete in five years. Sure, these people mostly have cars, but given the sheer size of the sprawl and the quality of the transportation they pretty much have to. Seattle, as far as I can see, is 5% quality urban space and 95% slum. In KL, miles and miles of moderate-rise, mainly well built concrete and blockwork flats. Equally small, or perhaps even a bit smaller, but much better built. Technical infrastructure of a quality which embarrasses Europeans, much less Americans. Inside, the same sorts of consumer durables, rather more up-to-date. These people mostly don't have cars, they have motor scooters - but given the much greater density of the place and the much better public transport system that's all they need. I'm not saying KL doesn't have slums, but nothing like the same scale. Yes, Seattle has its super-rich. So does KL. For the majority of it's inhabitants, it appears to the outside observer that KL provides a much better physical and material quality of life than Seattle. And in KL you do not see the abject poor you do in Seattle. The thing about the United States is that few of its residents know very much about anywhere else. They believe the myths of America, and they believe other places are worse. But... it ain't necessarily so. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Morning had broken, and there was nothing we could do but wait patiently for the RAC to arrive. |
#69
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
in message , mal
') wrote: Does that make me 'working class' or 'middle class'? And does anyone (apart from my partner) really care any more? Probably means that you family income allows you to do stuff that you would otherwise starve doing. Do you camp out at Glastonbury, or stay at a B & B? Never been there. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ [ This .sig intentionally left blank ] |
#70
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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments
in message , Montesquiou ('')
wrote: "Bob Martin" a écrit dans le message de news: ... in 523429 20060816 222509 "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote: This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying. Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover simply by talking to any factory worker. ********, Tom (as usual). Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings. The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made". It is possible Sarkozy to became the next French President. That is significant (and is exactly what Kunich et al were denying). Just for the fun, this is a short list of immigrant's sons in France (in the Show Business for example) : That's irrelevant. Poor people with energy, ruthlessness and luck can get rich anywhere in the world. Getting rich isn't the same as social mobility. Social mobility is about who your son gets to marry. -- (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/ Q: Whats a webmaster? A: Like a spider, but nowhere near as intelligent. |
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