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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments



 
 
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  #61  
Old August 18th 06, 06:19 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
William Asher
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

Howard Kveck wrote in
:

snip

If only you could have found a way to work in "helmets"...


I was going to, but I didn't want to cross-post to rbt and everyone would
have thought I was trolling.

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  #62  
Old August 18th 06, 06:31 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
William Asher
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

"Robert Chung" wrote in
:

William Asher wrote:

It would sort of be like Canada, only I still wouldn't understand
a word the train conducter was saying.


It's sort of like pig latin but instead of adding "ay" to the end of
each word they add it to the end of each sentence.


There's also the weird thing they do with the "ou" sound so it's almost
Scottish.

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  #64  
Old August 18th 06, 07:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


Marlene Blanshay wrote:
wrote:
steve wrote:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?



Actually, the US is not as class-mobile as it is famous for, depending
on how you define class. The US is (or should be) famous for the
_appearance_ of mobility because class is more linked to income
than strict heredity, but actual measures of income mobility from
generation to generation often show that the US is _less_ income-mobile
than a number of European countries. This is all speaking about
the postwar era.

Here's a recent article that suggests Brits define class more by birth
than by income:
http://www.economist.com/world/brita...ory_id=7289005

(FWIW, as an American, the class jape in the headline about
"did they buy their own furniture" was quite inexplicable. I had to
read the article to find out that the opposite is inheriting one's
furniture, from the previous Lord of Woolshirt-Dundersnipe, presumably.
My American co-worker who has lived in Britain figured it out
immediately, though.)

A bunch of Times poll results for the US (which shows that most
Amis think it's easier to move up in the US than Europe):
http://www.nytimes.com/packages/html.../index_04.html

And a comparison of income-mobility among countries, which
suggests the opposite:
http://www.americanprogress.org/site...8OVF&b=1579981

Unfortunately, none of these really studied whether bike racers
are definitively working-class no matter how much they make,
which is sort of the substance of your question, I guess.

Ben

in the US the big fixation in on race... in europe, class is just
different. Of course there's racism everywhere but they have different
attitudes about race.


Race is a factor in the "New World" in a way that it isn't in Europe
because Europe is still so homogeneous. You want to start seeing some
uncomfortable race issues, look at South American soap operas then look
at the people on the streets there. Europeans have the luxury of having
a different attitude about race because it is someting they just don't
have to deal with.

Interracial marriage isn't as much of a big deal.


Maybe in the enlightened cirlces in a few major cities of your
aquaintances there, much as it is in many areas in the US. But if you
really think that on the whole in Europeans don't make such a big deal
about interracial marriages, you are seriously mistaken.

But here, we like to pretend we live in this classless society where
everyone is the same.


Equal oppurtunity (or striving for it) does not mean equal results
necessarily.

Joseph

  #65  
Old August 18th 06, 07:21 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


Tom Kunich wrote:
wrote in message
oups.com...

I am not aware of these studies, nor am I a statistician able to make
sense of any results. I think my observations may be usefull for people
to think about what sorts of information is useful to compare, and what
sort of questions can be raised given what we do know. Any statistics
that show what actually happens does not necessarily give a picture of
what is possible. Income mobility in the upper 3/4 of income is not
very interesting, It is what "keeps the poor down" that is interesting.
This is obviously an unanswerable question, but consider this: A poor
2nd generation kid from Guatemala who lives in LA in a crap neigborhood
with crap schools, and a 2nd generation Algerian kid who lives in a
crap suburb of Paris. If they both stay out of trouble and g oto
school, which one is going to have more obstables to attaining a
"normal" life? The kid in LA has to "act white" and wear a shirt and
tie at some call-center job and work his way up to manager after a few
years and then he is there. I contend that the Algerian kid will have
more obstacles with "acting French", getting a job, getting promoted,
etc. There are obvioulsy racial/ethnic issues that compound this, but
they are part of the picture.


While I'm not exactly sure that I agree with your particular examples I do
agree with your thought.

As for the examples themselves - the USA is white. Got that? That's the
STANDARD. If people want to relate to whites they have to act white. And
acting white isn't betraying your race as you seem to imply. It means being
clean and polite and speaking in clear English. Other than that there is
essentially NO LIMIT to what a man can do. The pretense that someone that
sits on their ass and does nothing and claims that it's because he's being
discriminated against ain't going to hack it.


I didn't mean to imply that acting white was an obstacle or some
negative thing at all. I only meant that they would have to get with
the program. The term "acting white" is used by poor minorities
themselves to describe doing well in school, getting a job, and
generally not being a ****-up. Simialrly in France, the immagrant kids
(even tose who are 2nd, 3rd gen) refer to all white people in France as
"the French". They don't even consider themselves French, that is
apparently something reserved for the white people there.

The same goes for poor white trash. A white kid who lives in a
trailer-park in Riverside next to a meth-lab is also going to have to
clean up his act to get the same call-center job, but he can, just like
the Guatemalan kid.

Joseph

  #66  
Old August 18th 06, 07:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


Robert Chung wrote:
wrote:

The question is [...] how much oppurtunity do they have to change
their situation if they choose to do so.

If that's your question, then you're talking about individual income
mobility. For that particular measure, the US tends to rank behind most
European countries.


I am not aware of these studies [...] Income mobility in the upper
3/4 of income is not very interesting, It is what "keeps the poor down"
that is interesting.


Then you haven't been looking,


I thought you were referring to a particular study published in a semi
mainstream magazine. I do follow the topic to some degree otherwise.

and you've just explained why your stories
about the Europeans you know who emigrated to the US for better
opportunities aren't particularly interesting: they probably would have
stayed in the upper 3/4 of income even had they stayed in Europe.


Not at all. The only people I know of who emigrated were either dirt
poor, starving, or living in a dangerous police-state.

The
entire field of income and mobility focuses on "what keeps the poor down"
and there are many, many books and journals available at your nearest
university library.


I live in the sticks! No "lie-berries" here!

Joseph

  #68  
Old August 18th 06, 08:38 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Simon Brooke
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

in message .com,
') wrote:

As for poverty in th eUS, squalor does not equal poverty. Some poor
run-down neigborhoods you may have seen house people with a level of
comfort and income that would surprise you. Cars, DVD players,
computers, microwave ovens, all the modern conveniences you can buy.


Compare Seattle with Kuala Lumpur, both cities I know a little. In
Seattle, miles and miles and miles and miles of trailer parks, people
living in little boxes made of high density fibreboard and aluminium
sheet, in a climate with very high rainfall and often very cold.
Electric cables strung about any old how on crooked, leaning poles which
would make any European power engineer wince. Sure, the people in those
fibreboard boxes have all sorts of consumer 'durables', where durables
means things which will be obsolete in five years. Sure, these people
mostly have cars, but given the sheer size of the sprawl and the quality
of the transportation they pretty much have to. Seattle, as far as I can
see, is 5% quality urban space and 95% slum.

In KL, miles and miles of moderate-rise, mainly well built concrete and
blockwork flats. Equally small, or perhaps even a bit smaller, but much
better built. Technical infrastructure of a quality which embarrasses
Europeans, much less Americans. Inside, the same sorts of consumer
durables, rather more up-to-date. These people mostly don't have cars,
they have motor scooters - but given the much greater density of the
place and the much better public transport system that's all they need.
I'm not saying KL doesn't have slums, but nothing like the same scale.

Yes, Seattle has its super-rich. So does KL. For the majority of it's
inhabitants, it appears to the outside observer that KL provides a much
better physical and material quality of life than Seattle. And in KL you
do not see the abject poor you do in Seattle.

The thing about the United States is that few of its residents know very
much about anywhere else. They believe the myths of America, and they
believe other places are worse. But... it ain't necessarily so.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Morning had broken, and there was nothing we could do but wait
patiently for the RAC to arrive.
  #69  
Old August 18th 06, 08:42 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Simon Brooke
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

in message , mal
') wrote:

Does that make me 'working class' or 'middle class'? And does anyone
(apart from my partner) really care any more?


Probably means that you family income allows you to do stuff that you
would otherwise starve doing.
Do you camp out at Glastonbury, or stay at a B & B?


Never been there.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

[ This .sig intentionally left blank ]

  #70  
Old August 18th 06, 08:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Simon Brooke
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

in message , Montesquiou ('')
wrote:


"Bob Martin" a écrit dans le message de news:
...
in 523429 20060816 222509 "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

This is the class system that people in the United States are
decrying. Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits
of their ability
if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
simply by talking to any factory worker.


********, Tom (as usual).

Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings.

The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made".


It is possible Sarkozy to became the next French President.


That is significant (and is exactly what Kunich et al were denying).

Just for the fun, this is a short list of immigrant's sons in France
(in the Show Business for example) :


That's irrelevant. Poor people with energy, ruthlessness and luck can get
rich anywhere in the world. Getting rich isn't the same as social
mobility. Social mobility is about who your son gets to marry.

--
(Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

Q: Whats a webmaster?
A: Like a spider, but nowhere near as intelligent.
 




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