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  #231  
Old January 25th 08, 11:34 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
SLAVE of THE STATE
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,774
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 1:30*pm, Bret wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:





On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:


On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:


"Bret" wrote in message


...


I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire
department? Are they evil too?


Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't
fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of
your statement?


Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into
being altruistic.


If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state.
There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and
basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it.


The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if
people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts
to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that
is tyranny.


What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that
not everyone agrees with him/her.


It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You
have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends.


Tyranny is altruism
Coercion is defense
Destruction is creation
Stealing is giving
Violence is kindness


"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."
*--- George Orwell, "1984"

I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many
previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be
evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead.


To put it in a sentence, if "we" must have government, then that
government must be (and stay that way) chained by severe restraints on
what it may do. This doctrinal position is sourced from certain facts
of human nature.

In principle, that was exactly the type of general (federal)
government that was formed -- a "constrained via enumerated powers"
entity. That written constitution has not been amended in a way that
allows the general government to do the breadth of things it does
today. No honest debater could say such a thing. Thus the current US
government is not legitimate /on its own terms/. (Leaving aside the
more general question if a given government is legitimate even if it
did obey its own laws.)

I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the
stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is
the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom
are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire
department question.


If you are saying I believe there is "perfection" to be had in the
rules of conduct of a given society (and duty-based requirements in an
authoritarian societal structure), then you are indeed putting words
in my mouth. I know of no such grand unifying social theory.

I think you do not understand the weakness of your "fire department
question."


Ads
  #232  
Old January 25th 08, 11:36 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Michael Press
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,202
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

In article
],
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

In article ,
Howard Kveck wrote:

In article ],
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:


I could not read Ayn Rand at length. Never got any traction,
and had to quit. And every time somebody kindly offers a
quotation that I take to be a succinct embodiment of one
of her notions I read it closely, scratch my head, read it
closely again, think, puzzle, associate, fit concepts together
as if they are jigsaw pieces, then throw up my hands and
admit that it is beyond my ken.

Seriously, Michael, agree or disagree, Ms. Rand's quote up there isn't
that hard to parse, even with the crazy structure.

She means that altruism is evil. She says that Stalinism was the
essential, pure, extreme form of altruism.

The first part says that she feels that subconsciously, modern
intellectuals (of all political ilks) know this, and it makes them
anxious.

I, as a good Catholic boy (albeit one with a weird libertarian bent that
has no business being there) think this is completely wrong: a mad
equivalency of totalitarianism and altruism. But it's not that hard to
understand.


The 2008 version of this is Jonah Goldberg's recent book that purports to
show
that liberals are fascists.


How I got involved in this political discussion, I don't know (actually,
I do know: because I am a dumbass). But while I haven't read the book, I
did hear him interviewed at length, and his subject is, more precisely,
that the statist impulses of fascism (and he's talking generally about
all the fascists here; Mussolini as much as Hitler, and probably Franco
too), and modern-day instances of the totalitarian dream.

He notes that in the rise of fascists, "totalitarianism" was the selling
point, not the nightmare. This is me speaking, but it might make sense
to think of totalitarian meaning to happy fascists what "holistic" is
taken to mean today: an all-encompassing philosophy.

Let's just say that the totalitarian impulse can be summed up by the
phrase, "it takes a village to raise a child."

Goldberg's a pretty serious small-government, borderline libertarian
right-winger, and his real concern is that he wishes to avoid the
totalitarian dream. I doubt he mentions it in the book, but in the
interview he specifically called out Huckabee as a disaster-candidate
(in his opinion) for his essentially populist-totalitarian impulses.

Found it:

http://instapundit.com/archives2/013336.php


ObBike: why have the Germans never acquired a reputation for making
serious road bikes? Is there some boutique make I'm missing?


Warning: Gratuitous Ethnic Stereotyping. Hide the kiddies.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,SoldierTech_Leopard2A6,,00.html

--
Michael Press
  #233  
Old January 25th 08, 11:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
SLAVE of THE STATE
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,774
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 5:00*am, Bill C wrote:
On Jan 25, 2:47*am, Ryan Cousineau wrote:


How I got involved in this political discussion, I don't know (actually,
I do know: because I am a dumbass). But while I haven't read the book, I
did hear him interviewed at length, and his subject is, more precisely,
that the statist impulses of fascism (and he's talking generally about
all the fascists here; Mussolini as much as Hitler, and probably Franco
too), and modern-day instances of the totalitarian dream.


He notes that in the rise of fascists, "totalitarianism" was the selling
point, not the nightmare. This is me speaking, but it might make sense
to think of totalitarian meaning to happy fascists what "holistic" is
taken to mean today: an all-encompassing philosophy.


Let's just say that the totalitarian impulse can be summed up by the
phrase, "it takes a village to raise a child."


*More good stuff snipped.

*IMO he's out to lunch with Coulter, but that's not the point.
*He's using the fact that "liberals" frequently make noises like Marx
and Mao, and celebrate their ideas, and support people who spout their
ideas.\
*The problem with this is that everytime those have been put into
practice fully you end up with something remarkably like Fascism.
*You have State control of all resources, and products, for the
benefit of the State. You have total State control over the people,
for their own good, and the good of the State. You have a massive, and
abusise security force. You have a handfull of people at the top
voilently exploiting the people for their own benefit, which is the
same as the State.
*This is why the language is useless, or at best difficult. The
Stalinist/Maoist regimes haven't been functionally, significantly
different than the fascist is real world result.
*IMO if you support Castro, and Chavez you support a fascist, and
proto-fascist.


I have to say, you nailed it this time, Bill.

free monkeys dot com summarizes nicely:
http://freedomkeys.com/isms.htm

"This is why the language is useless, or at best difficult." -- Bill C

"If language restricts what you may do, destroy it." -- The Socialist

  #234  
Old January 25th 08, 11:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bret
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 797
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 3:34*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
On Jan 25, 1:30*pm, Bret wrote:





On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:


On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:


On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:


"Bret" wrote in message


...


I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire
department? Are they evil too?


Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't
fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of
your statement?


Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into
being altruistic.


If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state.
There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and
basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it.


The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if
people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts
to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that
is tyranny.


What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that
not everyone agrees with him/her.


It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You
have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends.


Tyranny is altruism
Coercion is defense
Destruction is creation
Stealing is giving
Violence is kindness


"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."
*--- George Orwell, "1984"

I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many
previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be
evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead.


To put it in a sentence, if "we" must have government, then that
government must be (and stay that way) chained by severe restraints on
what it may do. *This doctrinal position is sourced from certain facts
of human nature.

In principle, that was exactly the type of general (federal)
government that was formed -- a "constrained via enumerated powers"
entity. *That written constitution has not been amended in a way that
allows the general government to do the breadth of things it does
today. *No honest debater could say such a thing. *Thus the current US
government is not legitimate /on its own terms/. *(Leaving aside the
more general question if a given government is legitimate even if it
did obey its own laws.)

I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the
stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is
the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom
are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire
department question.


If you are saying I believe there is "perfection" to be had in the
rules of conduct of a given society (and duty-based requirements in an
authoritarian societal structure), then you are indeed putting words
in my mouth. *I know of no such grand unifying social theory.

I think you do not understand the weakness of your "fire department
question."- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


Do you believe or not that there is an absolute answer to the question
of state funded altruism being evil? If so, why wouldn't the fire
department be a valid example?
  #235  
Old January 26th 08, 12:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
SLAVE of THE STATE
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,774
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 2:49*pm, Bret wrote:
On Jan 25, 3:34*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:





On Jan 25, 1:30*pm, Bret wrote:


On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:


On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:


On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:


"Bret" wrote in message


...


I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire
department? Are they evil too?


Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't
fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of
your statement?


Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into
being altruistic.


If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state.
There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and
basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it.


The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if
people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts
to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that
is tyranny.


What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that
not everyone agrees with him/her.


It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You
have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends.


Tyranny is altruism
Coercion is defense
Destruction is creation
Stealing is giving
Violence is kindness


"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."
*--- George Orwell, "1984"
I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many
previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be
evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead.


To put it in a sentence, if "we" must have government, then that
government must be (and stay that way) chained by severe restraints on
what it may do. *This doctrinal position is sourced from certain facts
of human nature.


In principle, that was exactly the type of general (federal)
government that was formed -- a "constrained via enumerated powers"
entity. *That written constitution has not been amended in a way that
allows the general government to do the breadth of things it does
today. *No honest debater could say such a thing. *Thus the current US
government is not legitimate /on its own terms/. *(Leaving aside the
more general question if a given government is legitimate even if it
did obey its own laws.)


I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the
stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is
the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom
are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire
department question.


If you are saying I believe there is "perfection" to be had in the
rules of conduct of a given society (and duty-based requirements in an
authoritarian societal structure), then you are indeed putting words
in my mouth. *I know of no such grand unifying social theory.


I think you do not understand the weakness of your "fire department
question."- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Do you believe or not that there is an absolute answer to the question
of state funded altruism being evil? If so, why wouldn't the fire
department be a valid example?-


You think coincidence means identical. You confuse means with ends.
The frame of your question is defective.

Of course I would not ever say in a general sense that saving a
dwelling from destruction by fire is wrong.

This is another of those "well then, you must hate children"
questions.

  #236  
Old January 26th 08, 12:36 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bret
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 797
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 4:09*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:
On Jan 25, 2:49*pm, Bret wrote:





On Jan 25, 3:34*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:


On Jan 25, 1:30*pm, Bret wrote:


On Jan 25, 1:26*pm, SLAVE of THE STATE wrote:


On Jan 24, 10:41*pm, Bret wrote:


On Jan 24, 10:37*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:


"Bret" wrote in message


...


I never mentioned my beliefs on this subject. How about the fire
department? Are they evil too?


Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't
fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of
your statement?


Imagine that. *People are so altruistic, they must be coerced into
being altruistic.


If people were altruistic, they'd do those things without a state.
There is no "kind and gentle" way to take people's property and
basically threaten them with death if they insist on defending it.


The state is wholly unnecessary to perform these altruistic acts if
people are indeed altruistic and value these things. *What it amounts
to is a ruler class denoting value to all others. *The word for that
is tyranny.


What the statist -- the petty tyrant -- cannot stand is the idea that
not everyone agrees with him/her.


It is basic obfuscation of simple language. *You've been had. *You
have (intentionally?) confused/conflated means and ends.


Tyranny is altruism
Coercion is defense
Destruction is creation
Stealing is giving
Violence is kindness


"War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. Ignorance is Strength."
*--- George Orwell, "1984"
I hate to put words in your mouth, but I take from this and your many
previous postings on the subject that you consider all taxation to be
evil. A necessary evil? You never say what we should do instead.


To put it in a sentence, if "we" must have government, then that
government must be (and stay that way) chained by severe restraints on
what it may do. *This doctrinal position is sourced from certain facts
of human nature.


In principle, that was exactly the type of general (federal)
government that was formed -- a "constrained via enumerated powers"
entity. *That written constitution has not been amended in a way that
allows the general government to do the breadth of things it does
today. *No honest debater could say such a thing. *Thus the current US
government is not legitimate /on its own terms/. *(Leaving aside the
more general question if a given government is legitimate even if it
did obey its own laws.)


I'm a philosophical dumbass but the one thing I took away from the
stupid humanities elective in engineering school is that philosophy is
the study of questions that have no one perfect answer. You and Tom
are so certain you have that answer, but you both sidestep the fire
department question.


If you are saying I believe there is "perfection" to be had in the
rules of conduct of a given society (and duty-based requirements in an
authoritarian societal structure), then you are indeed putting words
in my mouth. *I know of no such grand unifying social theory.


I think you do not understand the weakness of your "fire department
question."- Hide quoted text -


- Show quoted text -


Do you believe or not that there is an absolute answer to the question
of state funded altruism being evil? If so, why wouldn't the fire
department be a valid example?-


You think coincidence means identical. *You confuse means with ends.
The frame of your question is defective.

Of course I would not ever say in a general sense that saving a
dwelling from destruction by fire is wrong.

This is another of those "well then, you must hate children"
questions.- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -


A fire department is not a valid example of state funded altruism
because the frame of my question is defective. Got it. We need to
choose our guiding philosophies without reference to real world
situations. Otherwise we'll be led astray by defective framing. For
the second time today I'm reminded of Dilbert.
  #237  
Old January 26th 08, 02:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Ryan Cousineau
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,383
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

In article ,
Michael Press wrote:

ObBike: why have the Germans never acquired a reputation for making
serious road bikes? Is there some boutique make I'm missing?


Warning: Gratuitous Ethnic Stereotyping. Hide the kiddies.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,SoldierTech_Leopard2A6,,00.html


That's not UCI-legal. Some kind of recumbent?

--
Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/
"My scenarios may give the impression I could be an excellent crook.
Not true - I am a talented lawyer." - Sandy in rec.bicycles.racing
  #238  
Old January 26th 08, 04:50 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Tom Kunich
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,456
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

"Bret" wrote in message
...
On Jan 24, 10:37 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't
fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of
your statement?


Because a fire department isn't altruistic and if you even tried to think
about it for a minute you'd realize that.


  #239  
Old January 26th 08, 05:51 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bret
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 797
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 8:50*pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:
"Bret" wrote in message

...
On Jan 24, 10:37 pm, "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:



Ahh yes, the old saw that if something bad is bad than anything else is
equally bad.


I didn't say anything was bad. You made an absolute statement that
state funded altruism is evil. Tell me why the fire department doesn't
fit that statement. Or are you not committed to the absolute truth of
your statement?


Because a fire department isn't altruistic and if you even tried to think
about it for a minute you'd realize that.


"In the two male-dominated fields (more than 97 percent of
firefighters and 96 percent of CEOs nationally are men), the fact that
number one was a tie between the altruistic, brawny fireman and the
bring-home-the-bacon CEO speaks volumes about what we find sexiest in
men." -- hot-firefighters.com


http://hot-firefighters.com/blog2/?p=162
  #240  
Old January 26th 08, 06:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,092
Default OT Is anyone really surprised?

On Jan 25, 6:50*pm, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
In article ,
*Michael Press wrote:

ObBike: why have the Germans never acquired a reputation for making
serious road bikes? Is there some boutique make I'm missing?


Warning: Gratuitous Ethnic Stereotyping. Hide the kiddies.
http://www.military.com/soldiertech/0,14632,SoldierTech_Leopard2A6,,0....


That's not UCI-legal. Some kind of recumbent?


I'm pretty sure "Economical Uberpanzer" was an late-80s
early-90s industrial band. I might have seen then opening
for The Fall once. Howard probably remembers them
better than I do.

Ben

 




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