Steel frames and le Tour

In article ,
wrote:
I know that Laurent Brochard is signing his name to high end steel
frames in a joint effort with his brother, bikes weigh about 8kg. Last
I heard, he wasn't riding the Tour de France.
http://www.cycles-laurentbrochard.fr/acier.html

Considering how long it took him to give up on wearing a mullet, I'm not surprised
that he'd be endorsing steel frames. (Not saying steel is backwards - I have one
too.)

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

In article ,
Tim McNamara wrote:

In article ,
A Muzi wrote:

-snip frames- John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
You think team sponsors who are going nuts spending money to get
their name into the most televised and photographed bike race in
the world wouldnt' care if some "lower-level" rider is riding
something different? Wow.

Long history of that, actually. Especially in climbs and TT.

Indeed, this has been the case for decades and probably less now. There
were frame builders who made a good living building bikes for riders,
who then sent them to be painted in the team colors. Pegoretti is one
such example, allegedly having built frames for Lemond, Indurain,
Chiappucci, etc. which were then painted in team colors. Andy Hampsten
won at Alpe-d'Huez on a Landshark painted in Merckx Motolora colors, and
Lance won the 1993 world champs on a Lightspeed painted to look like a
Merckx. Lemond had his frames built by Roland Della Santa for years and
painted in the team colors. Sean Kelly stated that he almost always
ride Vitus 979 frames which were painted in the team colors; many pros
did the same in the 1980s.

Tim, I believe Motorola was officially riding Caloi frames in '93, which were a
sub-brand of Merckx.

--
tanx,
Howard

The bloody pubs are bloody dull
The bloody clubs are bloody full
Of bloody girls and bloody guys
With bloody murder in their eyes

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

On Jul 10, 11:59 am, Scott wrote:

Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may
actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame? And that rider
(should one exist) may be able to get that steel frame for free from
the builder?

No. They're pros. They ride what they're paid to ride. They aren't
fetishists who see the bicycle as a singular work of art with an
idealized form. For racers, bicycles are tools to be used and
discarded when worn out. No different than the way a carpenter sees a
hammer or circular saw. As one pro once told me, "We would ride
shopping carts if we were paid to." It's just a ****in' bike.

wrote in message
...
On Jul 10, 11:59 am, Scott wrote:

Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may
actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame? And that rider
(should one exist) may be able to get that steel frame for free from
the builder?

No. They're pros. They ride what they're paid to ride. They aren't
fetishists who see the bicycle as a singular work of art with an
idealized form.

Ahh, so that's why Tour winners like LeMond had special steel bikes made and
rebadged as the team bike. In fact, most team leaders still have custom
bikes made for them. Only now it's about as cheap and easy to make a custom
carbon fiber bike as a steel bike.

On Jul 10, 5:28*pm, Scott wrote:
On Jul 10, 2:03*pm, RicodJour wrote:



On Jul 10, 2:21*pm, Scott wrote:

Now, back to your initial paragraph. *You don't understand
probability. *The odds for any given rider using a steel frame is not
1 in 10 or 1 in 100 or whatever. *It's 50/50. *They either are, or are
not, using a steel frame. *The odds would be different if we defined
our terms differently, say, what are the odds a rider would choose
frame A (steel) vs frame B (Ti from builder x) vs frame C (Ti from
builder y) vs frame D (carbon fiber from xyz) vs frame E (carbon fiber
from abc) and so on.

You keep using that word, odds. I do not think it means what you think
it means.

What you meant to say, and probably would have said, if you weren't at
_odds_ with people that disagreed with you, is that there are two
possibilities - either a steel frame or another frame. *Both the odds
and probability of a rider in the Tour day France riding a steel frame
are extremely remote - roughly akin to you admitting that, "okay, I'm
wrong." *Deal with it.


Let's use poker as an example, since many of us have either played the
game or have seen it played on TV. *If you watch poker on TV, the
commentators often refer to the odds of a given card being played.
The numerical odds are clearly defined, because there is a finite set
of possibilities which are easily shown. *There is no human element to
the odds of a given card being played.

Scott, I hope you're not a gambler as your grasp of what constitutes
odds and probabilities is, well, shaky at best.

Let's incorporate your "human element" into cycling - based on recent
ASO UCI interactions it's unlikely there are real people making these
decisions (probably a SchwartzSoft side project for pocket money).

Say that a rider wanted to ride a steel bike. The sponsor doesn't
want him to - they want to get what they're paying for. The type of
publicity that would be generated in this totally dope free tour
(management excepted) if a rider makes the podium on an other-than-his-
sponsor's bike would not reflect well on the sponsor. His team
doesn't want him to ride a "funny bike" as sponsor money would be
threatened, and the team mechanics don't want him to as standard bikes
are easier for them to deal with.

Even if all other differences between steel and carbon were equal,
obviously a stretch, there are forces that would prevent a rider from
expressing that individuality outside the corporate fold. You want a
custom bike? Fine, we'll make it for you, or we'll let you ride on a
bike that is close enough to be rebadged and not cause a ruckus for
us. Steel doesn't fit the bill.

Think of it this way, if we flipped a coin and you _see_ it come up
tails, and I'm holding a gun to your head, you're still going to say
heads, aren't you? You don't even know if there are bullets in the
gun, but you'll say heads anyway. It's like that.

R

On Jul 10, 8:52 pm, wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:59 am, Scott wrote:

Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may
actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame? And that rider
(should one exist) may be able to get that steel frame for free from
the builder?

No. They're pros. They ride what they're paid to ride. They aren't
fetishists who see the bicycle as a singular work of art with an
idealized form. For racers, bicycles are tools to be used and
discarded when worn out. No different than the way a carpenter sees a
hammer or circular saw. As one pro once told me, "We would ride
shopping carts if we were paid to." It's just a ****in' bike.

This sounds about right to me. I remember Big Mig winning his 5 tours
on those Pinarellos and then retiring and buying a Cannondale with his
own cabbage. They're pros and really they do more or less "owe" it to
the sponsor to use the equipment they're given. Nonetheless, as
others have pointed out, there is a rich history of riders "re-
badging" their bikes-- swapping a hammer for a better hammer perhaps.
Maybe this just isn't as common as it once was what with the plethora
of sub-900kg super-stiff carbon frames out there.

In article
],
Ryan Cousineau wrote:

You're a big dumbass riding an astoundingly dumb argument into the
barriers, head down like Abdoujaparov.

LOL!

In article
,
wrote:

On Jul 10, 8:52 pm, wrote:
On Jul 10, 11:59 am, Scott wrote:

Really, you don't think that even a single rider in the field may
actually prefer a steel frame to a carbon fiber frame? And that
rider (should one exist) may be able to get that steel frame for
free from the builder?

No. They're pros. They ride what they're paid to ride. They aren't
fetishists who see the bicycle as a singular work of art with an
idealized form. For racers, bicycles are tools to be used and
discarded when worn out. No different than the way a carpenter sees
a hammer or circular saw. As one pro once told me, "We would ride
shopping carts if we were paid to." It's just a ****in' bike.

This sounds about right to me. I remember Big Mig winning his 5
tours on those Pinarellos and then retiring and buying a Cannondale
with his own cabbage. They're pros and really they do more or less
"owe" it to the sponsor to use the equipment they're given.

According to the bikes mags at the time, Indurain rode Pegorettis which
he had custom-built. But since the bikes were painted "Banesto," the
name of a bank, no one probably cared.

Nonetheless, as others have pointed out, there is a rich history of
riders "re- badging" their bikes-- swapping a hammer for a better
hammer perhaps. Maybe this just isn't as common as it once was what
with the plethora of sub-900kg super-stiff carbon frames out there.

According to Sean Kelly a few years ago, it is less common than it was
in his day.

In article ,
Howard Kveck wrote:

In article ,
Tim McNamara wrote:

In article ,
A Muzi wrote:

-snip frames- John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:
You think team sponsors who are going nuts spending money to
get their name into the most televised and photographed bike
race in the world wouldnt' care if some "lower-level" rider is
riding something different? Wow.

Long history of that, actually. Especially in climbs and TT.

Indeed, this has been the case for decades and probably less now.
There were frame builders who made a good living building bikes for
riders, who then sent them to be painted in the team colors.
Pegoretti is one such example, allegedly having built frames for
Lemond, Indurain, Chiappucci, etc. which were then painted in team
colors. Andy Hampsten won at Alpe-d'Huez on a Landshark painted in
Merckx Motolora colors, and Lance won the 1993 world champs on a
Lightspeed painted to look like a Merckx. Lemond had his frames
built by Roland Della Santa for years and painted in the team
colors. Sean Kelly stated that he almost always ride Vitus 979
frames which were painted in the team colors; many pros did the
same in the 1980s.

Tim, I believe Motorola was officially riding Caloi frames in '93,
which were a sub-brand of Merckx.

One of the years they did ride Calois, good recall on your part; I had
forgotten about that. I don't remember if it was 1993 or not. The
Calois team frames were built by Merckx's factory, of course. But my
poster of Lance crossing the finish line in Oslo in 1993 looks to have
Merckx decals rather than Calois. A friend has one of Motorola's frames
built for Max Sciandri, lugged steel Merckx in that case. I don't
recall what year that one was from.

William Asher wrote:
RicodJour wrote:

Quit trying to hijack the thread. We're beating up on Scott at the
moment.

This is turning into a nice thread. I love July around here.

I feel like I should start a "Philly Sucks" thread, just to see
what turns up.

Bob Schwartz