Those French!

Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
"nancy1" wrote in message
oups.com...
Of course, that is very recent. But by "will they never get over
WWII?," I was asking if they will ever forgive themselves (and stop
resenting us) for needing our military power during WWII.

Nobody resents that.

I believe you would be wrong about that...I believe this resentment is
well documented. It's a natural human emotion, resenting someone
because their skill is needed. Below is a portion of a lengthy document
from Reagan's writings about NATO:

"Ever since World War II France has had a chip on its shoulder. While
most nations accept the passing of their world-power status, France
refused to admit that it had been bumped from the center of world
affairs. Their resentment towards the United States, which had
succeeded the European powers as the clear leader of the Western world
after WWII has always been apparent. The United States has had to "buy"
the French off on a number of occasions, starting with the formation of
NATO and most recently the conflict with Iraq. With the passing of the
Soviet Union, the United States no longer needs France, and the
blackmail payments have got to stop.

"France's history on the international scene isn't very pretty. After
World War II it waged wars to keep its empire intact. The U.S. was
forced into a situation of aiding the French in Indochina in return for
French participation in NATO. That was the first step on the long road
to U.S. involvement in Vietnam. France then battled nationalist
insurgents in African colonies, including a long, bloody campaign in
Algeria. In addition to battling to keep its empire, France (along with
Britain) tried to seize the Suez Canal in 1956. Their ill-planned
venture backfired as world support for Egypt eventually forced their
withdrawal and made Egyptian dictator Abdul Nasser a hero in Egypt and
the Arab world. The war, along with the Arab-Israeli war that was being
fought at the time gave the Soviet Union the cover it needed to crush
the Hungarian revolt.

"Of particular interest to the U.S. was French refusal to allow
overflights when the U.S. retaliated against Libya for its terrorist
activities. That refusal required U.S. pilots to fly completely around
Europe and then to Libya along the Mediterranean coast of Africa,
adding thousands of miles to the flight. This is just one occasion on
which France has appeased terrorists in the hopes of not becoming a
target. Despite evidence that this policy has failed (France has been
the scene of numerous terrorist attacks) they continue to follow it,
event to the detriment of relations with its real friends. With a
"friend" like that, the U.S. needs no other enemy!

"The biggest problem in the current crisis is that France (along with
Germany and Russia) has been rearming Iraq and selling it the
technology it needs to make weapons of mass destruction. Any military
victory over Iraq would lead to the disclosure of those facts. France
(along with Germany and Russia) clearly wants to prevent that from
happening."

Relations also deteriorated after WWII, by the conditions in Vietnam.
This is from "U.S. and France in Indochina, 1950-56" (the Pentagon
Papers):

"Vietnam was the crucible of contemporary France. Military defeat by
the Viet Minh--unprecedented victory of Asian over European--was but
one political reagent: there was also intense frustration and
disappointment among French of Rightist-colon convictions that
sneaker-shod Asian peasants could undo a century of costly labor at
France's "civilizing mission," and jeopardize the largest investment of
French capital in the Far East. The Tonkin Delta region represented in
a special way all that Vietnam meant to France. Tonkin, of all Vietnam,
was where French economic stakes were highest, where the culture of
France most completely overglossed indigenous ways, where stood
educational focus of Vietnam--the University of Hanoi, with its French
faculty-and where Catholicism flourished among the rural folk. Thus,
evacuation of Tonkin per the dictates of the Geneva Settlement stung
less from a sense of humiliation over Dien Bien Phu than from a sense
of abandonment: an epoch had closed, France was demeaned.

"Had the Geneva Settlement been fulfilled, France might have retained a
presence and influence in Vietnam that would have mollified both the
Right and Left. After all, no significant body of opinion in France
held the French should continue to mold Vietnamese politics or that the
French Expeditionary Corps should remain there undiminished-the reality
of the DRV and the exigencies of North Africa rendered such a position
untenable. The Left and the Center were quite willing for France to
withdraw under the Geneva formula; even the "Indochina" clique within
the army recognized the priority of Algeria. But France in the end, at
American instance, had to accept withdrawal without the cover of
general elections, and to accede to a second, further, more final
abandoment.

"The supplanting of France by the U.S. in South Vietnam, and the
failure of the Geneva Settlement, both well advanced by mid-1956,
denied the French Left its prospects for cooperation with Ho Chi Minh
in a precedent-setting experiment in coexistence. It disappointed
moderates who had hoped to preserve French cultural influence and
salvage French capital. It enraged Rightists who interpreted American
policies in Vietnam invidiously. None of these factions was prepared to
take a stand for France's staying, but all attempted to draw political
sustenance from acerbic treatment of the U.S.

....sorry, I'm sure this is more than you wanted to know, but it proves
my point.
...
I believe that any tourist or visitor (for example, someone there on an
academic sabbatical) can cite more than one instance of the arrogant
French attitude of "I cannot understand your French," even if it is
perfect....

Having often been in France, I really can't confirm that. Not at all.

Are you an American? I was speaking of Americans. Someone from
another country, European or not, would likely not notice.


That's all I was trying to say. OTOH, I may be totally wrong.


Yes, perhaps you are.

Read the above excerpts - 'nuf said. Thanks for the considerate
discussion.

N.

trg wrote:

The most common remark of friends and relatives when visiting me in France
is, "I don't know why people say the French are rude, I found people here to
be very nice and helpful."

when my bf was about 12, he was in france with his school class, and
they had this assignment of finding different kinds of shops by asking
people for help/directions. so he asked this one adult in french where a
baker was located, and the reply was "i'm sorry, i don't speak english".

my bf doesn't hold it against the entire french country though (just the
story fits in well with both the "picking on children who are trying to
learn" theme and language snobbism, so i'm telling it

hh

Exaclty what you said. And 9.9 times out of 10, the people
complaining so loudly about France and the French people have no idea
what they're talking about, because they've never been there.

Let's not forget a little bit of history as well, and remember that if
it weren't for the French, we (meaning America) would not have won our
independence from the British way back in the 1700's. Remember?
Cornwallis getting boxed in by Washington and the French Fleet at
Yorktown? Ah, memories seem so short...

Vive le France.

Tom

trg a =E9crit :

The most common remark of friends and relatives when visiting me in France
is, "I don't know why people say the French are rude, I found people here=
to
be very nice and helpful."

I meet about a dozen American tourists a day (e.g., just now, some
person whose daughter works in a cafe in Half Moon Bay I went to
with my wife) and they seem pretty happy about their experience here.
As for their
stories of French rudeness, I make them aware that those people
are also rude to the French, so it is not usually against Americans.

On the other hand, americans who come here are those who don't have
any prejudice against the French, which makes them much more pleasant
and open minded than the average American.

-ilan

nancy1 wrote:


Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:

"nancy1" wrote in message
groups.com...

Of course, that is very recent. But by "will they never get over
WWII?," I was asking if they will ever forgive themselves (and stop
resenting us) for needing our military power during WWII.

Nobody resents that.


I believe you would be wrong about that...I believe this resentment is
well documented. It's a natural human emotion, resenting someone
because their skill is needed. Below is a portion of a lengthy document
from Reagan's writings about NATO:

"Ever since World War II France has had a chip on its shoulder. While
most nations accept the passing of their world-power status, France
refused to admit that it had been bumped from the center of world
affairs.

Just like us getting bumped by China.

Steve


Their resentment towards the United States, which had
succeeded the European powers as the clear leader of the Western world
after WWII has always been apparent. The United States has had to "buy"
the French off on a number of occasions, starting with the formation of
NATO and most recently the conflict with Iraq. With the passing of the
Soviet Union, the United States no longer needs France, and the
blackmail payments have got to stop.

"France's history on the international scene isn't very pretty. After
World War II it waged wars to keep its empire intact. The U.S. was
forced into a situation of aiding the French in Indochina in return for
French participation in NATO. That was the first step on the long road
to U.S. involvement in Vietnam. France then battled nationalist
insurgents in African colonies, including a long, bloody campaign in
Algeria. In addition to battling to keep its empire, France (along with
Britain) tried to seize the Suez Canal in 1956. Their ill-planned
venture backfired as world support for Egypt eventually forced their
withdrawal and made Egyptian dictator Abdul Nasser a hero in Egypt and
the Arab world. The war, along with the Arab-Israeli war that was being
fought at the time gave the Soviet Union the cover it needed to crush
the Hungarian revolt.

"Of particular interest to the U.S. was French refusal to allow
overflights when the U.S. retaliated against Libya for its terrorist
activities. That refusal required U.S. pilots to fly completely around
Europe and then to Libya along the Mediterranean coast of Africa,
adding thousands of miles to the flight. This is just one occasion on
which France has appeased terrorists in the hopes of not becoming a
target. Despite evidence that this policy has failed (France has been
the scene of numerous terrorist attacks) they continue to follow it,
event to the detriment of relations with its real friends. With a
"friend" like that, the U.S. needs no other enemy!

"The biggest problem in the current crisis is that France (along with
Germany and Russia) has been rearming Iraq and selling it the
technology it needs to make weapons of mass destruction. Any military
victory over Iraq would lead to the disclosure of those facts. France
(along with Germany and Russia) clearly wants to prevent that from
happening."

Relations also deteriorated after WWII, by the conditions in Vietnam.
This is from "U.S. and France in Indochina, 1950-56" (the Pentagon
Papers):

"Vietnam was the crucible of contemporary France. Military defeat by
the Viet Minh--unprecedented victory of Asian over European--was but
one political reagent: there was also intense frustration and
disappointment among French of Rightist-colon convictions that
sneaker-shod Asian peasants could undo a century of costly labor at
France's "civilizing mission," and jeopardize the largest investment of
French capital in the Far East. The Tonkin Delta region represented in
a special way all that Vietnam meant to France. Tonkin, of all Vietnam,
was where French economic stakes were highest, where the culture of
France most completely overglossed indigenous ways, where stood
educational focus of Vietnam--the University of Hanoi, with its French
faculty-and where Catholicism flourished among the rural folk. Thus,
evacuation of Tonkin per the dictates of the Geneva Settlement stung
less from a sense of humiliation over Dien Bien Phu than from a sense
of abandonment: an epoch had closed, France was demeaned.

"Had the Geneva Settlement been fulfilled, France might have retained a
presence and influence in Vietnam that would have mollified both the
Right and Left. After all, no significant body of opinion in France
held the French should continue to mold Vietnamese politics or that the
French Expeditionary Corps should remain there undiminished-the reality
of the DRV and the exigencies of North Africa rendered such a position
untenable. The Left and the Center were quite willing for France to
withdraw under the Geneva formula; even the "Indochina" clique within
the army recognized the priority of Algeria. But France in the end, at
American instance, had to accept withdrawal without the cover of
general elections, and to accede to a second, further, more final
abandoment.

"The supplanting of France by the U.S. in South Vietnam, and the
failure of the Geneva Settlement, both well advanced by mid-1956,
denied the French Left its prospects for cooperation with Ho Chi Minh
in a precedent-setting experiment in coexistence. It disappointed
moderates who had hoped to preserve French cultural influence and
salvage French capital. It enraged Rightists who interpreted American
policies in Vietnam invidiously. None of these factions was prepared to
take a stand for France's staying, but all attempted to draw political
sustenance from acerbic treatment of the U.S.

...sorry, I'm sure this is more than you wanted to know, but it proves
my point.

...

I believe that any tourist or visitor (for example, someone there on an
academic sabbatical) can cite more than one instance of the arrogant
French attitude of "I cannot understand your French," even if it is
perfect....

Having often been in France, I really can't confirm that. Not at all.


Are you an American? I was speaking of Americans. Someone from
another country, European or not, would likely not notice.


That's all I was trying to say. OTOH, I may be totally wrong.


Yes, perhaps you are.


Read the above excerpts - 'nuf said. Thanks for the considerate
discussion.

N.



--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001

"nancy1" wrote in message
oups.com...

Of course, that is very recent. But by "will they never get over
WWII?," I was asking if they will ever forgive themselves (and stop
resenting us) for needing our military power during WWII.

I think what they resent is you constantly reminding them that you helped them.
Hardly a day goes by without someone saying "we saved their/your ass".
Britain also helped France in two wars but nobody makes an issue of it.

Bob Martin wrote:
"nancy1" wrote in message
oups.com...

Of course, that is very recent. But by "will they never get over
WWII?," I was asking if they will ever forgive themselves (and stop
resenting us) for needing our military power during WWII.

I think what they resent is you constantly reminding them that you helped them.
Hardly a day goes by without someone saying "we saved their/your ass".
Britain also helped France in two wars but nobody makes an issue of it.

That is most likely - well, that and Vietnam. Sooner or later, though,
those who constantly remind will die off, and the French will forget,
and then it will all be over.

N.

"trg" wrote:
The most common remark of friends and relatives when visiting me in France
is, "I don't know why people say the French are rude, I found people here
to
be very nice and helpful."

Having just returned from my first-ever visit to France, I have to agree
completely. All one has to do is be reasonably polite, use the obligitory
"bonjour", "s'il vous plait", and "merci", and most everyone responds in
kind. My favorite interactions were with the 300 lb pub-keeper who
generously turned the tv to the english tour coverage for us. Of course,
with David Duffield as the commentator, I think we would have been better
off watching the french coverage anyway!

BTW, for anyone who likes climbing, you *need* to go ride in the alps. That
is surely the climbing mecca of the world because the pavement is great, the
views are incredible, and the traffic is minimal (at least where I was
around Morzine).

Mark
(can't wait to go back!)

Bob Martin a =E9crit :

I think what they resent is you constantly reminding them that you helped=
them.
Hardly a day goes by without someone saying "we saved their/your ass".
Britain also helped France in two wars but nobody makes an issue of it.

I watched some D-Day documentaries this year and I finally realised
that
without the USA, France would have been under German occupation not for
decades, but for centuries. In order to grasp the weakness of France,
consider that Paris was liberated with US help,
on August 25, 1944, but that without
US help, the French were still unable to capture La Rochelle and
a few other port cities by the
time the Germans surrendered on May 8, 1945.

Any French person who doesn't continually appreciate the fact that
thousands of kids from farms in Kansas or Georgia (who had hardly
a clue about France) died so they could
be free is either a complete fool or else a closet fascist.
Chirac made the French debt very clear on
the 2004 D-Day ceremonies.

-ilan

"nancy1" wrote in message
oups.com...


Jonathan v.d. Sluis wrote:
"nancy1" wrote in message
oups.com...
Of course, that is very recent. But by "will they never get over
WWII?," I was asking if they will ever forgive themselves (and stop
resenting us) for needing our military power during WWII.

Nobody resents that.

I believe you would be wrong about that...I believe this resentment is
well documented. It's a natural human emotion, resenting someone
because their skill is needed. Below is a portion of a lengthy document
from Reagan's writings about NATO:

Why should I believe Reagan on this subject?

Also, I don't think the French politics are in direct relation to how people
on the street behave. After all, a single person you meet might have any
political opinion. I read nothing here that would make French people resent
the fact that they needed US, English and Canadian forces to defeat the
Germans. Most of it is about Vietnam anyway.

...sorry, I'm sure this is more than you wanted to know, but it proves
my point.
...
I believe that any tourist or visitor (for example, someone there on an
academic sabbatical) can cite more than one instance of the arrogant
French attitude of "I cannot understand your French," even if it is
perfect....

Having often been in France, I really can't confirm that. Not at all.

Are you an American? I was speaking of Americans.

No, you were speaking of any tourist or visitor. Any. You see? So that means
any. Not just Americans. Any tourist or visitor. It is not unreasonable to
ask of you to back that up somehow. Any tourist or visitor should also,
logically, include me, but my experiences are actually the opposite.

My French is not so good, with many pauses and errors. Most French were
patient and agreeable. Exceptions I can think of were in Rocamadour and
Hendaye. And when I'm travelling (by bike), I don't look wealthy and that's
putting it mildly, but the examples of hospitality I've been offered in
France were above what I expected. Same goes for Spain, by the way. England
somewhat less, but I was still fine there.

Someone from
another country, European or not, would likely not notice.

Why not?



That's all I was trying to say. OTOH, I may be totally wrong.


Yes, perhaps you are.

Read the above excerpts - 'nuf said. Thanks for the considerate
discussion.

N.