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  #91  
Old April 13th 15, 12:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 606
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:55:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 4/12/2015 9:06 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:


Apparently there are multitudes of bacteria already in the Human gut.
and E. coli is a consistent resident of the small intestine.

from:
http://www.livescience.com/3092-huma...a-thought.html
"In sheer numbers, the mammalian colon harbors one of the densest
microbial communities found on Earth. For every human cell in your
body, there are roughly 10 single-celled microbes, most of which live
in your digestive tract."


That seems to be a fact whose implications are still being deciphered by
the medical community. We're not just an animal; we're an ecosystem.


Years ago when my son was a little tyke he got some sort of intestinal
malady and the doctor prescribed an antibiotic by mouth. As we were
leaving the clinic the doctor said, as an afterthought, you might want
to feed him some un pasteurized yogurt too. When I asked him why he
said that the antibiotic would kill all the microbes and that wasn't
good so feed the kid yogurt to replace some of the beneficial ones :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.
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  #92  
Old April 13th 15, 12:37 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Rolf Mantel
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Posts: 147
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

Am 13.04.2015 um 13:21 schrieb John B. Slocomb:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:55:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


That seems to be a fact whose implications are still being deciphered by
the medical community. We're not just an animal; we're an ecosystem.


Years ago when my son was a little tyke he got some sort of intestinal
malady and the doctor prescribed an antibiotic by mouth. As we were
leaving the clinic the doctor said, as an afterthought, you might want
to feed him some un pasteurized yogurt too. When I asked him why he
said that the antibiotic would kill all the microbes and that wasn't
good so feed the kid yogurt to replace some of the beneficial ones :-)


Yes, and Danone was forbidden from advertising with the special microbes
in their yoghurt because they were unable to demonstrate that any of
these would survive the stomach acid and reach the intestine,
demonstrating that this 'eat yoghurt' stuff is an urban myth.

If you wish yoghurt bacteria to reach your intestine you would need to
consume them rectally, not orally.

  #93  
Old April 13th 15, 03:06 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

On Sunday, April 12, 2015 at 4:45:56 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/12/2015 6:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 7:23:54 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And my point is, if the typical ER physician saw a lot of kids with
pedestrian-related TBIs or car-riding TBIs, he'd never mention helmets..
Helmets are only mentioned for bike crashes - TBI or not. It's just
part of the "biking is dangerous" meme.


All of us -- except you for the most part -- differentiate between cycling,

walking and driving

Of course you distinguish!

Because no matter how many TBI cases occur, walking and driving must be
labeled safe. And no matter how few TBI cases occur, bicycling must be
labeled so dangerous that one should never do it without head
protection. Right?

Actual TBI data can be damned - or if necessary, distorted. Right?


Hmm. More for you to chew on Frank. Per 10 million miles traveled, cycling is more deadly than walking or driving (passenger) for kids: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...10/table/tbl3/

Principal findings

For each mile travelled in England and Wales there are about 50 times more child cyclist deaths and nearly 30 times more child pedestrian deaths than there are deaths to child car occupants. Although there have been declines in death rates for all modes of travel, pedestrians and cyclists remain at greatest risk. Because children from households without access to vehicles walk much more than their counterparts in car-owning families, the differences in risk by mode of travel are likely to contribute to the steep social class gradients in road traffic injury death rates. Although walking and cycling provide important benefits in terms of physical activity and have none of the adverse climate impacts of motorized travel, they appear to be the poor relations in terms of transport safety.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #94  
Old April 13th 15, 03:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

On 4/13/2015 7:37 AM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 13.04.2015 um 13:21 schrieb John B. Slocomb:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:55:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


That seems to be a fact whose implications are still being deciphered by
the medical community. We're not just an animal; we're an ecosystem.


Years ago when my son was a little tyke he got some sort of intestinal
malady and the doctor prescribed an antibiotic by mouth. As we were
leaving the clinic the doctor said, as an afterthought, you might want
to feed him some un pasteurized yogurt too. When I asked him why he
said that the antibiotic would kill all the microbes and that wasn't
good so feed the kid yogurt to replace some of the beneficial ones :-)


Yes, and Danone was forbidden from advertising with the special microbes
in their yoghurt because they were unable to demonstrate that any of
these would survive the stomach acid and reach the intestine,
demonstrating that this 'eat yoghurt' stuff is an urban myth.

If you wish yoghurt bacteria to reach your intestine you would need to
consume them rectally, not orally.


Or just get the job done with a poop transplant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fecal_bacteriotherapy


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #95  
Old April 13th 15, 04:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

On 4/13/2015 5:13 AM, Graham wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 4/12/2015 5:06 PM, Graham wrote:

[snip]

If you want to show how wrong I am in deriding cyclists who don't
conform to my view of what cycling's about, you'd be better off doing it
in direct response to such a statement. As it is, it looks to me like
you're reacting to imaginary statements, or at least very poorly
remembered ones.


Come off it Frank this is just another one of your demeaning tactics.


You mean, asking for specifics? Or recounting my cycling experience?
Gosh, Graham, I'm so sorry those offend you. I really didn't mean to
hurt your feelings! Really! :-(

I have said this before, you seem to be insensitive to the tone of your

posts.

Alternately, certain people may be super-sensitive to posts that show
them to be wrong, and to which they can provide no face-saving reply.

I've always figured this forum is a discussion group designed to trade
information, not a sensitivity group designed to raise everyone's self
esteem. Like it or not, on _some_ of the things we discuss, there
really are right answers and wrong answers.

On the "Danger! Danger!" aspect of bicycling, I happen to think the
popular answer is wrong, and I use data to demonstrate that. I also
think falling by overcooking a corner is a cyclist mistake, and not an
inevitable part of riding - even fast riding.

Sorry if all that makes you feel less heroic.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #96  
Old April 13th 15, 04:21 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Posts: 10,538
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

On 4/13/2015 10:06 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Sunday, April 12, 2015 at 4:45:56 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/12/2015 6:04 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 7:23:54 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

And my point is, if the typical ER physician saw a lot of kids with
pedestrian-related TBIs or car-riding TBIs, he'd never mention helmets.
Helmets are only mentioned for bike crashes - TBI or not. It's just
part of the "biking is dangerous" meme.

All of us -- except you for the most part -- differentiate between cycling,

walking and driving

Of course you distinguish!

Because no matter how many TBI cases occur, walking and driving must be
labeled safe. And no matter how few TBI cases occur, bicycling must be
labeled so dangerous that one should never do it without head
protection. Right?

Actual TBI data can be damned - or if necessary, distorted. Right?


Hmm. More for you to chew on Frank. Per 10 million miles traveled, cycling is more deadly than walking or driving (passenger) for kids: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/arti...10/table/tbl3/

Principal findings

For each mile travelled in England and Wales there are about 50 times more child cyclist deaths and nearly 30 times more child pedestrian deaths than there are deaths to child car occupants. Although there have been declines in death rates for all modes of travel, pedestrians and cyclists remain at greatest risk. Because children from households without access to vehicles walk much more than their counterparts in car-owning families, the differences in risk by mode of travel are likely to contribute to the steep social class gradients in road traffic injury death rates. Although walking and cycling provide important benefits in terms of physical activity and have none of the adverse climate impacts of motorized travel, they appear to be the poor relations in terms of transport safety.


OK, you win. Everybody should stop biking and walking. Travel only by car!

Don't look at the benefits vs. detriments, the total medical cost
including all health implications, the total number of fatalities, the
total number of serious TBI incidents, the amount of resource
consumption, the amount of pollution, the effect on social capital, the
effect on child development or anything else. The per-mile figures tell
all: Travel only by car!

Oh wait a minute... Just when I thought we had it all figured out, I
happened to look up the fatality per mile figures for buses and trains
and planes. Turns out those are about ten times safer per mile than
cars, and airliners are far safer yet.

So forget my previous paragraph. Travel only by bus, train and airliner!

But even when you're on an airliner, it's safer to wear a helmet. After
all, fighter pilots wear helmets. And if only one life can be saved...

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #97  
Old April 13th 15, 06:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Mike A Schwab
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Posts: 443
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

On Sunday, April 12, 2015 at 10:49:35 PM UTC-5, Tim McNamara wrote:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:55:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski

That seems to be a fact whose implications are still being deciphered
by the medical community. We're not just an animal; we're an
ecosystem.


Indeed and that infrastructure seems to have a profound influence on our
individual functioning. There is some pretty preliminary research
linking gut flora problems with things like depression (as the primary
precursor molecule for serotonin is produced by bacteria in our guts,
for example) as well as less surprising illness like irritable bowel
syndrome, ulcerative colitis, C. difficile, etc. It may be possible to
prevent or treat a number of diseases through dealing with bowel
organisms. Preventing disease is most often the most cost effective
approach.


http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/

Gives examples of many patients whose health improved by avoiding Grains and Carbohydrates. The current U.S. Wheat seems to cause much of the problem, Dairy is significant, and other sugars do contribute to problems. Since WW2 when the U.S. used radiation to create mutations then selecting for yield and stickiness (gluten) without concern for the healthiness of the grain..

http://www.wheatbellyblog.com/2012/1...quick-dirty-2/ gives a list of foods to avoid, limit, and eat freely. If you adhere strickly to the diet you may convert to Ketosis metabolism. If you have Diabetes, your body may not limit the production of Ketones and go into Diabetic Ketoacidosis.
  #98  
Old April 13th 15, 10:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

John B. Slocomb writes:

On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 09:22:06 +1000, James
wrote:

On 13/04/15 08:33, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/12/2015 3:48 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:


A few years ago a number of bicyclist in a group ride on Victoria
Island (iirc) got very sick and had to go to hospital because they
rode through some water that'd come from a farm. The spray onto their
water bottles carried the bacteria (E-coli iirc) into their bodies
when they drank the water.

Wow. Good reason to use fenders.


Yes! DANGER! DANGER!

When my wife, daughter and I did a bike tour of Ireland, we were in
Killarney, cruising around the national park. There were plenty of
sheep about, plus horse-drawn carriage rides for the tourists. And it
was raining. (Of _course_ it was raining! It was Ireland!)

Anyway, the various animal droppings plus the rain covered the roads in
a rich organic soup. We were _really_ glad we had fenders.


It's only a matter of time before fenders (mud guards) are made
mandatory to protect us from bacteria getting to our drink bottles.

If just one life can be saved (insert wringing hands...)

I shudder to think of the bacteria that is probably alive and well in my
foam hat right now. I could die if I scratched my scalp and put my
helmet on!


Apparently there are multitudes of bacteria already in the Human gut.
and E. coli is a consistent resident of the small intestine.

from:
http://www.livescience.com/3092-huma...a-thought.html
"In sheer numbers, the mammalian colon harbors one of the densest
microbial communities found on Earth. For every human cell in your
body, there are roughly 10 single-celled microbes, most of which live
in your digestive tract."


Some strains of E. coli are actually dangerous, but most are probably
good for you. I believe numbers of E. coli are so frequently assayed is
that they are a sign of human fecal contamination in water. They are
assumed to be accompanied by other fecal bacteria more pathogenic but
rarer, and hence harder to detect.

--
  #99  
Old April 14th 15, 01:28 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

On Monday, April 13, 2015 at 4:10:42 PM UTC-7, Phil W Lee wrote:
jbeattie considered Sat, 11 Apr 2015 17:30:23
-0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write:

On Saturday, April 11, 2015 at 12:29:39 PM UTC-7, Phil W Lee wrote:
jbeattie considered Fri, 10 Apr 2015 12:00:46
-0700 (PDT) the perfect time to write:

On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 2:57:22 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/9/2015 5:00 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 9:08:04 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 4/9/2015 10:34 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, April 9, 2015 at 3:03:07 AM UTC-7, Duane wrote:
Like I said no one at the ER has ever asked me if I was
wearing a helmet.

In the US, the ED staff is working from a script -- an Epic charting system or home-grown electronic charting system that takes them through a list of questions for every MVA/bike incident. It will have a helmet question as a means of gathering information about helmet usage and screening for head injuries. It will also ask about alcohol use, smoking and a lot of other stuff that has appears to have nothing to do with road rash.

... which means, "Of course you should wear a helmet!" promotion is
leading to the collection of data to be used for helmet promotion. But
_only_ for people on two-wheelers* - i.e. bicycles and motorcycles.

Yes, Frank, it's all part of the giant conspiracy out to enslave your head. Listen carefully . . . you can hear them whispering inside the walls.

Huh. I thought those were mice.

But is there any reason you use to justify fear mongering for such a
safe activity?

If a person is in the emergency room with injuries from a bicycling-related accident, I think it is reasonable to ask about helmet use to (1) screen for head injury,

Well, that would be an epic fail, since foam hats don't do anything to
prevent it!
A few failed foam hats probably inflate the figures though, because
all the people who don't know how they are supposed to work (by
crushing, not cracking) will inevitably report something as being a
TBI if the foam was broken, just to cover themselves against any
potential claim for malpractice if anything turns up later that they
missed, and the broken helmet produced as proof to another bunch of
people who don't know anything about how foam is supposed to absorb
energy, but have the power to decide on the outcome of a claim.
And then we get another "helmet saved my life" story.

and (2) gather data on helmet use. Keep in mind that the person is already in an emergency room for what he or she considers to be a serious injury(s). Most people do not go to the ER for road rash, but maybe that is SOP in Canada -- who knows. Anyway, I don't think fear needs to be mongered to people who have already been injured. It's not like they are ordering at McDonalds and the counter-person asks if they wear a helmet when riding a bike.

Perhaps Epic could impose a requirement that physicians tell cyclists who have been involved in accidents that "cycling is safer than walking!" They could also have a requirement to tell people who tripped while walking that "walking is safer than driving!" And tell drivers that driving is safer than skiing . . . and tell skiers that skiing is safer than, well, bull fighting! Everyone should feel good about everything because we're all unique little snowflakes and winners in our own right!

Damn, this is a bummer. Bicycling is at the top of the list for sports-related TBIs. http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/mm6039a1.htm Epic is going to have to punt on that one.

Without any data on exposure rates, that is so completely meaningless
as to be downright dishonest.
If anything it just demonstrates the popularity of cycling compared to
other sport and leisure activities.


Phil, you can let the steam out of the outrage calliope. It was a joke. Who knows what the statistic means, although if I were an ER physician and saw a lot of kids with bicycling related TBIs, I'd probably tell them to wear helmets -- if only to avoid reinjury.

BTW, even in PDX, Bicycle Town USA, most kids spend more time on the soccer pitch than on road bikes -- at least that was the case with my son's cohort. He spent more time on skis. It is disappointing how few ride on this side of town. There is some danger-danger involved, but a lot of it has to do with terrain.

What is the exposure rate in PDX, since you brought it up?
Average per person (that is, all people not per cyclist which might be
a lot higher) in hours / period should be a reasonable measure that we
can use for comparison.
It might also be instructive to know how that varies with age.


I don't know -- we have this study on injuries: http://www.scribd.com/doc/42230497/O...e-Trauma-Study

We also count cyclists, like fish going over the Bonneville Dam, but no kid statistics:

http://www.portlandoregon.gov/transp...article/448401
http://bikeportland.org/2012/12/10/c...ime-ever-81089

You're welcome to study us.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #100  
Old April 14th 15, 01:39 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 606
Default Brandt on soldred/tied spoking

On Mon, 13 Apr 2015 13:37:00 +0200, Rolf Mantel
wrote:

Am 13.04.2015 um 13:21 schrieb John B. Slocomb:
On Sun, 12 Apr 2015 22:55:15 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:


That seems to be a fact whose implications are still being deciphered by
the medical community. We're not just an animal; we're an ecosystem.


Years ago when my son was a little tyke he got some sort of intestinal
malady and the doctor prescribed an antibiotic by mouth. As we were
leaving the clinic the doctor said, as an afterthought, you might want
to feed him some un pasteurized yogurt too. When I asked him why he
said that the antibiotic would kill all the microbes and that wasn't
good so feed the kid yogurt to replace some of the beneficial ones :-)


Yes, and Danone was forbidden from advertising with the special microbes
in their yoghurt because they were unable to demonstrate that any of
these would survive the stomach acid and reach the intestine,
demonstrating that this 'eat yoghurt' stuff is an urban myth.

If you wish yoghurt bacteria to reach your intestine you would need to
consume them rectally, not orally.


Are you referring to specific bacteria or making a general statement?
While I don't dispute what you say it would seem unlikely at best, as
a general statement since certainly drinking contaminated water is
considered the primary way of contracting Typhoid, Hepatitis A, or
quite a number of other diseases.

--
Cheers,

John B.
 




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