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  #81  
Old November 1st 17, 02:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 5:13:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 10/31/2017 6:11 PM, wrote:

Yeah, some of these other engineers also didn't have degrees. So what? It was MY judgement and not that of a headhunter or a HR person to make that decision.


I'm surprised that a section manager would have no input as to
qualifications of people applying for jobs he would supervise.


Well, isn't that hoity-toity. This is more of a problem today than it was then. Human Resources are destroying businesses and there seems to be no end in sight.

I just got an email two days ago from some head-hunter saying that he had a job he wanted to discuss with me and when could he call. I gave him 3 pm yesterday.

No call, then another email telling me that the hiring manager wanted to know what salary range I would be asking.

????? I had NO idea what the job was and they're asking me what salary range I would accept? THIS is today's head-hunters and human resources.

So if you want to know what is wrong with the businesses in the USA today - it's BA's that think that you build a business on administration and not competent personnel.

There's that formal education that YOU believe to be so important.
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  #82  
Old November 1st 17, 02:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2017 06:39:21 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 3:26:44 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 11:51:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 7:09:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

How is that job application going?

Which one? I could get a dozen jobs were I to move from California. Since my wife won't go for that I have to watch Silicon Valley dissolving in the belief that you need a formal education to perform tasks that a technician could do.

Abbot Laboratories hasn't called yet. They are offering half the wage that their position would require. Do you suppose that is a serious job or an "it would be nice" position?

The electric car company to offer competition to Tesla seems to be falling apart now. They have advertised for engineering staff but never seem to hire anyone. They too have your really intelligent mindset that you need a formal education in order to screw everything you touch up.

Several other medical instrument companies cannot even read my resume because the headhunters will not submit a resume of someone that hasn't worked in three years. Again you cannot perform simple duties without a formal education.

Sounds like the places you've applied to want a formal education.

That's not illogical, you know. Yes, you tell us (and probably them) that you
are wonderfully smart and a high-performing worker. But they may reasonably
suspect that if you never earned a degree, you're not as smart or as motivated
as you claim.

Yes, I know there are exceptions. But based on what you say here, you're no
Bill Gates.

Where did that get you again?

:-) It got me a very interesting and satisfying career, lots of respect,
opportunities for interesting travel, and a good retirement in a desirable
community. I've had (and still have) opportunities to contribute to the
community. I've provided well for my family. And hey, I can even afford ground
beef!

- Frank Krygowski


Bill Gates? Let me guess - you think that he a Jobs were technical people.


Bill Gates was a computer programmer. Whether that is a "technical
person" or not may be open to argument.


I sincerely doubt that. Windows was purchased from a failing company and if memory served was Q-DOS and became MS-DOS and was almost unbelievably bad. But it WAS an operating system and I would write my own applications around it.

I think that Gates and Allen hired someone that actually knew how to program and that Gates never had enough smarts to even know what side of a keyboard the keys were on. But this OS ran on the IBM PC which almost guaranteed its success.

Unix was also an OS for the PC but was never successful because no company maintained it. It was some student written affair that didn't make anyone money.
  #83  
Old November 1st 17, 03:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 8:07:38 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2017 20:13:49 -0400, Frank Krygowski

I'm surprised that a section manager would have no input as to
qualifications of people applying for jobs he would supervise.


So am I. It was pretty much a standing policy that project managers,
in the company I worked for, had the last word in who they hired. The
theory was that in the event of a project failure that the manager
went down with the ship so he ought to pick his own crew.


There is a difference between having the last word and having the first. I am not bragging when I mention my expertise in electronics and especially embedded systems. Why can't I get an interview? After helping one man gain a Nobel Prize and another company an Emmy Award you would think that they would be standing in line. But instead I have only had one phone call from a company itself and the man got huffy when I suggested that when you have your automobile attached to the Internet you do not use a programming language that a child could hack.
  #84  
Old November 1st 17, 10:40 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,424
Default To cycle is to live dangerously...[


Yeah, some of these other engineers also didn't have degrees. So what? It was MY judgement and not that of a headhunter or a HR person to make that decision.


I'm surprised that a section manager would have no input as to
qualifications of people applying for jobs he would supervise.


Well, isn't that hoity-toity. This is more of a problem today than it was then. Human Resources are destroying businesses and there seems to be no end in sight.


Totally. It has been like this for decades. I remember hearing in the early 2000s that Google is having incredible problems with their HR, who are a bunch of snotty 25-y/olds with history degrees who think that they're hot **** cuz they work at google, and who go swaggering down the middle of castro st in Mtn View with their Google badges swinging from their necks, and who are deciding who gets to work at Google, much to the consternation of the hiring managers. Obviously this has not destroyed Google, but... there was clearly a huge problem.


I just got an email two days ago from some head-hunter saying that he had a job he wanted to discuss with me and when could he call. I gave him 3 pm yesterday.

No call, then another email telling me that the hiring manager wanted to know what salary range I would be asking.

????? I had NO idea what the job was and they're asking me what salary range I would accept? THIS is today's head-hunters and human resources.


LOL yep. They weren't quite as bad 30 yrs ago in the 80s but got so about 25 years ago. What gets me is when they ask you to commit to saying yes should you pass the interview and get the offer. I don't ask the employer to commit to hiring me just because I want the job!

Headhunters are so slimey it's unreal. It took me 5 years to figure out to say "Sunnyvale" when they ask you casually where you work now. And "QA" or "Fred" when asked "Who you reportin to there?" I had to be hit over the head with it. I was standing in a new manager's office one day when he got a fone call, and from his end I concluded that he was talking to the headhunter who had just placed me there, who was going down my resume and calling all my previous employers soliciting business. He had mistakenly started at the top of my resume instead of with the previous position, and completely spaced.

The headhunter who placed me at my current job keeps sending me emails about other positions...

The headhunter

  #85  
Old November 1st 17, 11:00 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Default To cycle is to live dangerously...[

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 8:34:37 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 11:07:38 PM UTC-4, John B. wrote:

Some of our clients demanded certain qualifications - Degree in Civil
Engineering with experience in constructing highways in primitive
areas - while in other cases they relied on us to supply qualified
people.


And speaking of Civil Engineers, lots of work that affects public safety
requires a licensed Professional Engineer's involvement. Getting a PE license
is far from easy, and if you don't have the relevant college degree (plus work
experience) there's little point in applying.

- Frank Krygowski


You are talking about engineers. Tom is talking about programmers. Most programs don't require any engineering or rigidly disciplined thinking to create. Some do of course. But the tech companies are full of others with engineer in their title who are really technicians - like myself at present, as a Linux admin. But I was a programmer for 30 years and never learned anything at all in coleg beyond assembly language. I just read code and documentation and then do something akin to stringing beads.

Well usually, anyway. I did make some cute and elegant design decisions in writing the C program that created this map: http://tinyurl.com/dougsrace.. But given what I said above, it doesn't take much to tickle me. I tend to think I'm hot **** for having copied the steep and shallow line drawing algorithms verbatim from Foley and van Dam.

  #86  
Old November 1st 17, 11:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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When I was a section manager I had six EE's working under me. None of them could handle the jobs and I was doing about half of the design and all of the programming.

I was really dying to get qualified personnel. The company kicked the bucket and I went into the Human Resources office and looked to see who had actually applied - there were a dozen people perfectly qualified but whom the college degree holding human resources people did not present to me because THEY didn't feel they were qualified for my necessities.

Yeah, some of these other engineers also didn't have degrees. So what? It was MY judgement and not that of a headhunter or a HR person to make that decision.


I'm surprised that a section manager would have no input as to
qualifications of people applying for jobs he would supervise.


So am I. It was pretty much a standing policy that project managers,
in the company I worked for, had the last word in who they hired. The
theory was that in the event of a project failure that the manager
went down with the ship so he ought to pick his own crew.


Well, both of you sound to me like you don't have much experience in this area. But that's just how it sounds to me. My experience lines up with Tom's. I was QA manager at Symantec for a while. I was told to hire a half dozen QA engrs fresh out of SJ state. Out of a half dozen resumes received from HR. I was also told to hire at least one female, and one of the six was indeed female.

HR chooses which resumes to provide to the hiring manager. So you've got to get your resume past her, and she's a very mediocre person, a sheep who excels at toeing party lines, and will disqualify you for stepping outside the norm in any way, including doing so with pride - should you sound too proud or too dry, should you include a tech joke like "Enter =" she won't understand it and think you made a typo, and so on. This has always been the case, AFAICT. What I've seen change in the last decade is that now she wants to come be one of the 5 interviewers. She wants a 45 minute slot just like the engineers on the team, except all she can do is ask stupid **** like "Why do you want to work at Yahoo?", and "What is your greatest weakness", and look for any reason to disqualify you. And since you did not anticipate the question and simply answer honestly "Uhm.. your coworker called -me-!! And asked me to come to this interview and offered a nice pay rate and made the job sound good and Yahoo sound great." And then she looks down her nose at you after all the team members and manager loved you, and you don't get the job.

Or maybe she asks "Why do you want to work at Netflix?" And you look like a deer in the headlights and blubber "Well, everybody loves Netflix, and the NetFlix service, and I heard from several employees that it is an absolutely -great- place to work" then she looks at you deadpan. And if you add "and what's more it's near my house!! In 30 years I have never once had a 5 minute commute, it's always more like 45 min each way. That would be so incredible to get that 90 minutes/day back, and would lead to me coming in to the office after dinner, too, whereas that doesn't happen when it's 20 miles..." ... should you be so clumsy as that, she says "O-kaaaaaay. Why ELSE do you want to work at Netflix?" And you don't get the job.

HR lady does not see herself as less valuable in the selection process than the manager or teammates... in fact, the other way around. She thinks she is a professional in her field just like the engineers and the manager are in theirs, and should be an equal player in the process. In fact she sees herself as more insightful into people and personalities than the social zeros that the manager and engineers are, and therefore her responsibility to shepherd them a bit, and compensate for their inability to see who's "a fit with the company" like she can.

There is nobody in the organization that I think less of than HR lady.

  #87  
Old November 2nd 17, 01:00 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default To cycle is to live dangerously...[

On 11/1/2017 5:41 PM, Doug Landau wrote:

When I was a section manager I had six EE's working under me. None of them could handle the jobs and I was doing about half of the design and all of the programming.

I was really dying to get qualified personnel. The company kicked the bucket and I went into the Human Resources office and looked to see who had actually applied - there were a dozen people perfectly qualified but whom the college degree holding human resources people did not present to me because THEY didn't feel they were qualified for my necessities.

Yeah, some of these other engineers also didn't have degrees. So what? It was MY judgement and not that of a headhunter or a HR person to make that decision.

I'm surprised that a section manager would have no input as to
qualifications of people applying for jobs he would supervise.


So am I. It was pretty much a standing policy that project managers,
in the company I worked for, had the last word in who they hired. The
theory was that in the event of a project failure that the manager
went down with the ship so he ought to pick his own crew.


Well, both of you sound to me like you don't have much experience in this area. But that's just how it sounds to me. My experience lines up with Tom's. I was QA manager at Symantec for a while. I was told to hire a half dozen QA engrs fresh out of SJ state. Out of a half dozen resumes received from HR. I was also told to hire at least one female, and one of the six was indeed female.

HR chooses which resumes to provide to the hiring manager. So you've got to get your resume past her, and she's a very mediocre person, a sheep who excels at toeing party lines, and will disqualify you for stepping outside the norm in any way, including doing so with pride - should you sound too proud or too dry, should you include a tech joke like "Enter =" she won't understand it and think you made a typo, and so on. This has always been the case, AFAICT. What I've seen change in the last decade is that now she wants to come be one of the 5 interviewers. She wants a 45 minute slot just like the engineers on the team, except all she can do is ask stupid **** like "Why do you want to work at Yahoo?", and "What is your greatest weakness", and look for any reason to disqualify you. And since you did not anticipate the question and simply answer honestly "Uhm.. your coworker called -me-!! And asked me to come to this interview and offered a nice pay rate and made the job soun

d good and Yahoo sound great." And then she looks down her nose at you after all the team members and manager loved you, and you don't get the job.

Or maybe she asks "Why do you want to work at Netflix?" And you look like a deer in the headlights and blubber "Well, everybody loves Netflix, and the NetFlix service, and I heard from several employees that it is an absolutely -great- place to work" then she looks at you deadpan. And if you add "and what's more it's near my house!! In 30 years I have never once had a 5 minute commute, it's always more like 45 min each way. That would be so incredible to get that 90 minutes/day back, and would lead to me coming in to the office after dinner, too, whereas that doesn't happen when it's 20 miles..." ... should you be so clumsy as that, she says "O-kaaaaaay. Why ELSE do you want to work at Netflix?" And you don't get the job.

HR lady does not see herself as less valuable in the selection process than the manager or teammates... in fact, the other way around. She thinks she is a professional in her field just like the engineers and the manager are in theirs, and should be an equal player in the process. In fact she sees herself as more insightful into people and personalities than the social zeros that the manager and engineers are, and therefore her responsibility to shepherd them a bit, and compensate for their inability to see who's "a fit with the company" like she can.

There is nobody in the organization that I think less of than HR lady.


Bad enough but an ex who is a college instructor reports
that the hiring committees of small colleges are made up of
staff who are ex HR ladies.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #88  
Old November 2nd 17, 01:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Doug Landau
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Posts: 1,424
Default To cycle is to live dangerously...[

On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 4:59:58 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2017 5:41 PM, Doug Landau wrote:

When I was a section manager I had six EE's working under me. None of them could handle the jobs and I was doing about half of the design and all of the programming.

I was really dying to get qualified personnel. The company kicked the bucket and I went into the Human Resources office and looked to see who had actually applied - there were a dozen people perfectly qualified but whom the college degree holding human resources people did not present to me because THEY didn't feel they were qualified for my necessities.

Yeah, some of these other engineers also didn't have degrees. So what? It was MY judgement and not that of a headhunter or a HR person to make that decision.

I'm surprised that a section manager would have no input as to
qualifications of people applying for jobs he would supervise.

So am I. It was pretty much a standing policy that project managers,
in the company I worked for, had the last word in who they hired. The
theory was that in the event of a project failure that the manager
went down with the ship so he ought to pick his own crew.


Well, both of you sound to me like you don't have much experience in this area. But that's just how it sounds to me. My experience lines up with Tom's. I was QA manager at Symantec for a while. I was told to hire a half dozen QA engrs fresh out of SJ state. Out of a half dozen resumes received from HR. I was also told to hire at least one female, and one of the six was indeed female.

HR chooses which resumes to provide to the hiring manager. So you've got to get your resume past her, and she's a very mediocre person, a sheep who excels at toeing party lines, and will disqualify you for stepping outside the norm in any way, including doing so with pride - should you sound too proud or too dry, should you include a tech joke like "Enter =" she won't understand it and think you made a typo, and so on. This has always been the case, AFAICT. What I've seen change in the last decade is that now she wants to come be one of the 5 interviewers. She wants a 45 minute slot just like the engineers on the team, except all she can do is ask stupid **** like "Why do you want to work at Yahoo?", and "What is your greatest weakness", and look for any reason to disqualify you. And since you did not anticipate the question and simply answer honestly "Uhm.. your coworker called -me-!! And asked me to come to this interview and offered a nice pay rate and made the job soun

d good and Yahoo sound great." And then she looks down her nose at you after all the team members and manager loved you, and you don't get the job.

Or maybe she asks "Why do you want to work at Netflix?" And you look like a deer in the headlights and blubber "Well, everybody loves Netflix, and the NetFlix service, and I heard from several employees that it is an absolutely -great- place to work" then she looks at you deadpan. And if you add "and what's more it's near my house!! In 30 years I have never once had a 5 minute commute, it's always more like 45 min each way. That would be so incredible to get that 90 minutes/day back, and would lead to me coming in to the office after dinner, too, whereas that doesn't happen when it's 20 miles..." ... should you be so clumsy as that, she says "O-kaaaaaay. Why ELSE do you want to work at Netflix?" And you don't get the job.

HR lady does not see herself as less valuable in the selection process than the manager or teammates... in fact, the other way around. She thinks she is a professional in her field just like the engineers and the manager are in theirs, and should be an equal player in the process. In fact she sees herself as more insightful into people and personalities than the social zeros that the manager and engineers are, and therefore her responsibility to shepherd them a bit, and compensate for their inability to see who's "a fit with the company" like she can.

There is nobody in the organization that I think less of than HR lady.


Bad enough but an ex who is a college instructor reports
that the hiring committees of small colleges are made up of
staff who are ex HR ladies.


Ugh. I wonder what else.
It is also always a weird moment when I learn that the pretty woman I just met and am conversing with at a party is HR lady.


  #89  
Old November 2nd 17, 04:22 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default To cycle is to live dangerously...[

On Wednesday, November 1, 2017 at 7:59:58 PM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
On 11/1/2017 5:41 PM, Doug Landau wrote:

HR lady does not see herself as less valuable in the selection process than the manager or teammates... in fact, the other way around. She thinks she is a professional in her field just like the engineers and the manager are in theirs, and should be an equal player in the process. In fact she sees herself as more insightful into people and personalities than the social zeros that the manager and engineers are, and therefore her responsibility to shepherd them a bit, and compensate for their inability to see who's "a fit with the company" like she can.

There is nobody in the organization that I think less of than HR lady.


Bad enough but an ex who is a college instructor reports
that the hiring committees of small colleges are made up of
staff who are ex HR ladies.


It obviously varies from school to school. I've seen almost total faculty
control of qualification requirements, department faculty rating all
applications, choosing whom to interview, ranking those who made it as far as
the interview, etc. There was input from HR on things like wording of
advertisements (you've gotta say you won't discriminate), there were rules
like if a rejected candidate was a minority or veteran, you had to fill out
a form to explain the rejection. And final hiring decisions come from above..

But overall, department faculty had very significant influence on the entire
process. Which was good, because it helps if a new hire is someone respected
by the faculty.

- Frank Krygowski
  #90  
Old November 2nd 17, 05:04 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B.[_3_]
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Posts: 5,697
Default To cycle is to live dangerously...[

On Wed, 1 Nov 2017 06:55:16 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Tuesday, October 31, 2017 at 7:30:16 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
On Tue, 31 Oct 2017 06:39:21 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 3:26:44 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 11:51:55 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, October 30, 2017 at 7:09:00 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:

How is that job application going?

Which one? I could get a dozen jobs were I to move from California. Since my wife won't go for that I have to watch Silicon Valley dissolving in the belief that you need a formal education to perform tasks that a technician could do.

Abbot Laboratories hasn't called yet. They are offering half the wage that their position would require. Do you suppose that is a serious job or an "it would be nice" position?

The electric car company to offer competition to Tesla seems to be falling apart now. They have advertised for engineering staff but never seem to hire anyone. They too have your really intelligent mindset that you need a formal education in order to screw everything you touch up.

Several other medical instrument companies cannot even read my resume because the headhunters will not submit a resume of someone that hasn't worked in three years. Again you cannot perform simple duties without a formal education.

Sounds like the places you've applied to want a formal education.

That's not illogical, you know. Yes, you tell us (and probably them) that you
are wonderfully smart and a high-performing worker. But they may reasonably
suspect that if you never earned a degree, you're not as smart or as motivated
as you claim.

Yes, I know there are exceptions. But based on what you say here, you're no
Bill Gates.

Where did that get you again?

:-) It got me a very interesting and satisfying career, lots of respect,
opportunities for interesting travel, and a good retirement in a desirable
community. I've had (and still have) opportunities to contribute to the
community. I've provided well for my family. And hey, I can even afford ground
beef!

- Frank Krygowski

Bill Gates? Let me guess - you think that he a Jobs were technical people.


Bill Gates was a computer programmer. Whether that is a "technical
person" or not may be open to argument.


I sincerely doubt that. Windows was purchased from a failing company and if memory served was Q-DOS and became MS-DOS and was almost unbelievably bad. But it WAS an operating system and I would write my own applications around it.


MS-DOS - was based on another system, 86-DOS from Seattle Computer
Products.

Seattle Computer Products had built a prototype 8086 CPU board but had
no operating system to fit it and were marketing the board with
Microsoft Basic. There was no 8086 based operating system at this
time. SCP developed a rudimentary operating system which they
initially called "Quick and Dirty Operating System" and later renamed
to 86-DOS. Microsoft initially licensed the use of the system, for
$25,000 and modified it to fit the IBM system. They later bought the
rights to the system, for $50,000. Due to the monies received from
Microsoft Seattle Computer expanded its memory business into
providing additional memory for PC products. The company had its best
year in 1982, reaping more than a million dollars in profit on about
$4 million in sales.

I think that Gates and Allen hired someone that actually knew how to program and that Gates never had enough smarts to even know what side of a keyboard the keys were on. But this OS ran on the IBM PC which almost guaranteed its success.


Well, of course you can believe anything that you wish but Gates wrote
his first software program at the age of 13. In high school he formed
a group of programmers who computerized their school's payroll system
and founded Traf-O-Data, a company that sold traffic-counting systems
to local governments.


Unix was also an OS for the PC but was never successful because no company maintained it. It was some student written affair that didn't make anyone money.


IBM initially offered the PC with the PC-DOS operating system and, I
think the UCSD p-System, although I'm not sure this was an original
offer. CP/M-86 was available about 6 months later. The PC-DOS system
added $40 to the basic cost of the system while CP/M-86 added $240.
About 96.3% of PS's were ordered with PC-DOS.

--
Cheers,

John B.

 




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