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Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering



 
 
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  #11  
Old July 11th 19, 02:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko
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  #12  
Old July 11th 19, 04:20 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_2_]
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Posts: 7,511
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 9:39:06 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."


What Tom claimed isn't wrong because Tom says it. It's simply wrong. Less tension
in a wheel's spokes do not measurably change the stiffness of the wheel. (And
Tom said nothing about uneven tensions. That's a Jutian smoke screen.)

From https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally slack."

Detailed measurements are given for confirmation, meaning this is fact, not
"indefensible theory." Although anyone who can read and understand a stress-
strain curve should be able to figure it out without the test measurements.

- Frank Krygowski
  #13  
Old July 12th 19, 12:32 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
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Posts: 547
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Thu, 11 Jul 2019 08:20:27 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 9:39:06 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."


What Tom claimed isn't wrong because Tom says it. It's simply wrong. Less tension
in a wheel's spokes do not measurably change the stiffness of the wheel. (And
Tom said nothing about uneven tensions. That's a Jutian smoke screen.)

From https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally slack."

Detailed measurements are given for confirmation, meaning this is fact, not
"indefensible theory." Although anyone who can read and understand a stress-
strain curve should be able to figure it out without the test measurements.

- Frank Krygowski



I seem to recall that Brandt tested the lateral stiffness (I believe
he referred to it) by bolting a wheel down to the table of a milling
machine and hanging weights on the rim to measure the deflection? I
don't remember the actual deflection measurement but I seem to
remember that it was negligible.
--

Cheers,

John B.
  #14  
Old July 12th 19, 05:53 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko


I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.
  #15  
Old July 12th 19, 05:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 8:20:29 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 9:39:06 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."


What Tom claimed isn't wrong because Tom says it. It's simply wrong. Less tension
in a wheel's spokes do not measurably change the stiffness of the wheel. (And
Tom said nothing about uneven tensions. That's a Jutian smoke screen.)

From https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally slack."

Detailed measurements are given for confirmation, meaning this is fact, not
"indefensible theory." Although anyone who can read and understand a stress-
strain curve should be able to figure it out without the test measurements.

- Frank Krygowski


Please do not give me this crap about "detailed measurements" when I can actually push the wheel with softer spokes over to the side whereas the clincher with tight spokes does not move.
  #16  
Old July 12th 19, 06:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
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Posts: 10,422
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 4:20:29 PM UTC+1, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 9:39:06 AM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."


What Tom claimed isn't wrong because Tom says it. It's simply wrong. Less tension
in a wheel's spokes do not measurably change the stiffness of the wheel. (And
Tom said nothing about uneven tensions. That's a Jutian smoke screen.)

From https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/wheel_index.html

"1. Does stiffness vary with spoke tension? Some believe that a wheel built with tighter spokes is stiffer. It is not. Wheel stiffness does not vary significantly with spoke tension unless a spoke becomes totally slack."

Detailed measurements are given for confirmation, meaning this is fact, not
"indefensible theory." Although anyone who can read and understand a stress-
strain curve should be able to figure it out without the test measurements.

- Frank Krygowski


So Sheldon does. But having common sense, Sheldon didn't write for ivory tower nit splitters like you, Franki-boy. What you're implying is that spokes can be slapped into the rim any old how, with tension so low that they bend visibly. In that case, obviously to everyone but you, the contact patch will be all over the place and with it the roadholding of the bike will also, consequently, be all over the place. The elephant in the room is Sheldon's common sense assumption that the spokes will have a certain minimum tension and that it will, in the normal course of events, be even tension.

Andre Jute
I really shouldn't have to explain such a fundamental matter to someone who claims to have taught engineering at third level
  #17  
Old July 12th 19, 06:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Posts: 5,870
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko


I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.


Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #18  
Old July 12th 19, 08:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
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Posts: 13,447
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On 7/12/2019 11:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.


I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko


I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.


That's because there are some USA state secrets banned for
export to China:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/SPOKFORM.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #19  
Old July 12th 19, 09:39 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 10:47:25 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 9:53:07 AM UTC-7, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko


I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.


Do you mean you bottomed-out the threaded portion of the spoke? What is the tension reading? If its below 100kfg, try throwing in some washers or getting shorter spokes.

-- Jay Beattie.


Jay, I have no idea what happened to my tensiometer. And they aren't really needed anyway since all you need is a trained ear and the ability to strike the spoke with your key and listen to the tone.

A couple of the spokes are bottomed out in the thread. That means that you can't make the others tighter and maintain a true and round wheel.
  #20  
Old July 12th 19, 09:41 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Tom Kunich[_5_]
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Posts: 1,231
Default Slack Spokes Cause Poor Steering

On Friday, July 12, 2019 at 12:33:21 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 7/12/2019 11:53 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, July 11, 2019 at 6:39:06 AM UTC-7, Andre Jute wrote:
On Sunday, July 7, 2019 at 12:51:05 AM UTC+1, Tom Kunich wrote:
These rims are so mechanically strong that they cannot be flexed so the only thing that it can be is the less tight spokes.

I'd say that evenness of tension in a wheel is more important for accurate steering and resistance to handling challenges than outright tension, but that doesn't mean that a certain minimum tension is not hugely desirable, in fact essential to a correctly responding wheel.

I can't say I take kindly to the implication by ticket-punched "engineers" that an unevenly slack set of spokes won't change the distance between the driven or steering hub and the contact patch, both items which will make for uncertain steering. I suggest that the clowns who're propelling themselves down the dead-end of an absolutely indefensible theory check their instinct to hound Tom Kunick and set their brains free to think the subject out before they start shouting "Wrong, wrong, wrong, because it is Tom who says it."

The correct response of the tyre in drive and roadholding, and particularly beyond the limits of roadholding where handling questions become important, in its design assumes a stiff wheel, and in practice suffers if the wheel is not stiffly built.

Handling is what happens when the bike runs out of roadholding either by pilot error or through road conditions. It is, not to put too fine a point on it, the cyclist's ability to save himself and his bicycle when adverse conditions are encountered. If your wheels deliver unexpected inputs because they aren't stiff enough (i.e. indifferent or neutral to tyre inputs), the cyclist's opportunity to effect a handling save decreases.

Slack spokes are simply dangerous unless the cyclist crawls along like the proverbial little old lady who rode her bike only to church on Sundays.. It's dumb for anyone to gainsay such an obvious truth, and doubly dumb for a ticket-punched "engineer" looking to embarrass Tom.

Andre Jute
Hey, Jumbo, come back; I retract everything I ever said about Timoshenko


I found that I was totally unable to ride above 32 mph yesterday without the wheels taking a flyer that was difficult to control on a somewhat crowded road. At 36 the bike was almost uncontrollable and slowing to 32 brought it into the realm of being able to keep it in the bike lane.

And this set are the one's I've tightened to the limit. The spokes are simply too long to bring them up to the correct tension.


That's because there are some USA state secrets banned for
export to China:

http://www.yellowjersey.org/photosfr...t/SPOKFORM.JPG

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


To use that formula you have to have exact measurements of the hub from its manufacturer. I think that they just bought the spoke set for the 50 mm clincher wheels.
 




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