V-brake balancing screws.

On 3/31/2015 2:13 PM, Peter Howard wrote:
On 1/04/2015 3:26 AM, Clive George wrote:
On 31/03/2015 16:19, AMuzi wrote:

Last weekend there was an LA story about transportation
featuring some
poor SOB who "has to ride his bicycle 2-1/2 miles to work
and then back
every day"

Dream job, I'd say. YMMV.

Mine does - 2.5 miles is too close IMO :-)


I was only 2.5 miles from work on my last job. The storeman
would look out the loading dock every morning and see me
pedal past the back gate, U-turn at the end of the cul de
sac and come back to the gate. He had a private pilot
license and accepted my explanation that I was looking for
cows on the runway on the downwind leg and then turning
upwind for final approach. In reality, my commute was too
short and I just wanted to keep on riding
PH

I guess my upper Midwest bias was showing there.

On a nice day 2.5mi is hardly a warmup but in extreme
weather it's about as far as I would actually ride every
morning. And did for many years. At 5 miles in bitter cold,
I would be tempted to skip a few mornings.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2015-03-30, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Incidentally, he's looking for a cheap tricycle to get some exercise.
He has balance problems and can't handle a conventional bicycle. I
just started looking, but am rather discouraged at the high cost of
tricycle conversion kits and ready to ride machines. If anyone has
any leads to a *CHEAP* kit or machine, I'm interested.

Try this.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bik/4953964566.html

No wait, that's not it. $240:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bik/4958103240.html

If your friend has even less to spend, maybe this + some work. $30.
http://goldcountry.craigslist.org/bik/4951990756.html

--
Gregory S. Sutter Mostly Harmless

http://zer0.org/~gsutter/

On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 20:14:37 -0500, Gregory Sutter
wrote:

Try this.
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/sfc/bik/4953964566.html

Ummm... no thanks.

No wait, that's not it. $240:
http://sfbay.craigslist.org/pen/bik/4958103240.html

That's more like it. Thanks.

If your friend has even less to spend, maybe this + some work. $30.
http://goldcountry.craigslist.org/bik/4951990756.html

Ummm... some rust and needs work, but the price is right. Probably a
good start. If he can ride it, something better later. Thanks 2.0.

--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:11:05 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
.. .
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:29:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.


I'm not sure as to bicycle maintenance. I was in a local shop one day
when a bloke I know dropped off a wheel; to have the flat fixed. After
he left I made a comment to the shop owner abut effete foreigners that
couldn't fix a flat and she replied that they did a significant amount
of business fixing flats for both locals and foreigners:-)

Fixing a puncture at the roadside can be a bit fiddly - damn near impossible
if its ****ing with rain.

Its just so much easier to include a spare tube in the tool pouch.

two is even better :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 23:35:20 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/29/2015 2:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 14:27:50 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

No reason not to. 4mm allen cap screws might be nice and
they are readily available. Nothing will break or slip with
the screws out.

If there's room, you might look into adding a plastic knob onto the
cap screw:
http://www.shear-loc.com/knobs.htm

But think of the air resistance!

More seriously, brakes don't have to be adjusted very often. It's
reasonable to require a tool for that operation.


But even more realistically, just get the correct screw driver. I find
that a Reed & Prince screwdriver fits most brake screws better then a
Phillips.
http://tinyurl.com/qzen6dz
for those that don't know the difference.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 31 Mar 2015 05:24:45 +1000, James
wrote:

On 31/03/15 01:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I'm in the "almost any tool should do it" camp. Same as the guys who
put in the slotted philips screw heads.

It occurs to me, I've never carried a Torx driver in my tool pouches.
I'd be ticked off if _anything_ on my bike absolutely required one.


So many parts already absolutely require hex keys, I don't know how
you're not already ticked off!

But only a few sizes. For the bikes I own it requires 6 allen wrenches
and a reed&prince screwdriver and that includes the wrench to adjust
the tension on the clipless pedals. It requires less space than a
folded 23mm inner tube.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:22:52 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On 3/29/2015 6:11 PM, James wrote:
On 29/03/15 21:46, Lou Holtman wrote:


Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use torx screws
for all
the fasteners on a bike.


I agree. I carry a multi tool for road side repairs. To be useful it
has to have bits appropriate for multiple styles of fastener head. All
of one kind would make bike maintenance much simpler. I'd be happy with
Torx bits.

Well, you'd be happy until the day you realized you you needed to make an
adjustment and you'd left your Torx tool on your workbench. Your
pocketknife won't work with a Torx screw.

Can we compromise? A Torx head with a slot for emergency non-Torx use?
Remember, it's just an adjustment screw.

It was the Philips head with a slot for emergency non-Philips that caused
all the aggravation in the first place.

As yet I haven't seen any multi-tools with Torx bits, they would probably
start to appear on the market if cycle manufacturers started using them.

A regular Torx driver (with a handle like a screwdriver) would tend to poke
holes in the tool pouch - the socket set style Torx bits would be OK, but
they sort of wobble a bit for turning adjustment screws.

Nope. They make those little folding sets with torx bits. I bought one
by mistake :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:42:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/30/2015 2:55 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 5:49:30 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 4:29 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.

Resistance to collecting dirt may be a stretch, but suspect it might
have been an unintended benefit of the sloppy screw head design. The
common M5 Allen head screw is fairly easy to clean. An M3 Allen head,
not so easy.

Ok, break is over.

I agree with the points Jeff makes. My only addition is that these days
(at least, in the U.S.) rather sophisticated bikes are being sold to
beginners. Seems like a recipe for problems.

Example: It's easy to buy an all-carbon bike if you've got the money.
It's not so easy to come by the unusual mechanical knowledge - like,
always use a low-range torque wrench; don't forget the friction paste;
don't clamp anything to the frame; etc.

And it's not just carbon fiber, that's just an example. Hell, I'd bet a
third of Americans who have quick release hubs don't really know how to
use the QR levers. And who's not familiar with the sound of a chain
permanently grinding against a front derailleur cage?

--
- Frank Krygowski

So what is your solution for people who don't want to learn? Another kind of lawyer lip solution? Because some people can't operate a quick release we are stuck with this stupid solution which **** up the whole idea of a quick release. What a solution. Did you see the coverage of Gent Wevelgem classic? Probably not, but after a front flat Cavendish got a front wheel from a team mate. Took them more than half a minute to get the wheel out and in because of the lawyer lips. We are talking about pro riders for crying out loud. As if front wheels were flying out of forks all the time in the past.

No, I don't like lawyer lips. I grind them off my bikes.

In an ideal world, I think bike designs and bike sales would be much
better tailored to the real needs and abilities of the customer.
Something like this:

"Sorry, you failed to see how this QR lever works. You get nutted
axles. But if you study for a week, we'll let you take the test to
qualify for wing nuts."

"Sir, you're more than 30 pounds overweight. You don't qualify for
carbon fiber anything. Here's a nice steel bike that will work you
harder and help you to lose weight."

"Sorry, Ma'am, if you have to ask why anyone needs eight or more cogs in
back, I'm required to sell you a hub gear, not a derailleur bike."

"You say you ride only on bike paths? OK, but your minimum tire width
is now 32 mm. That's the law."

"It rains here. You're getting fenders whether or not the racers use
them. Oh, and since it gets dark here, you're getting lights as well."

I've always thought that the U.S. courts went overboard with consumer
protection. Certainly it is only right and proper not to sell
something that doesn't work properly but equally, I think, it is right
and proper to assume that someone who buys something understands how
to use it correctly.

If, in your example, you do not know how to use a quick release skewer
then I cannot logically understand how it can possibly be the bicycle
maker's responsibility if your wheel falls off.
--
Cheers,

John B.

"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 17:11:05 +0100, "Ian Field"
wrote:


"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
. ..
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:29:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me
a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.


I'm not sure as to bicycle maintenance. I was in a local shop one day
when a bloke I know dropped off a wheel; to have the flat fixed. After
he left I made a comment to the shop owner abut effete foreigners that
couldn't fix a flat and she replied that they did a significant amount
of business fixing flats for both locals and foreigners:-)

Fixing a puncture at the roadside can be a bit fiddly - damn near
impossible
if its ****ing with rain.

Its just so much easier to include a spare tube in the tool pouch.

two is even better :-)

I have 2 - but one of them came from Poundland, I'd have to be *THAT*
desperate to actually use it.

"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
news
On Mon, 30 Mar 2015 11:42:19 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/30/2015 2:55 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 5:49:30 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 4:29 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give
me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.

Resistance to collecting dirt may be a stretch, but suspect it might
have been an unintended benefit of the sloppy screw head design. The
common M5 Allen head screw is fairly easy to clean. An M3 Allen head,
not so easy.

Ok, break is over.

I agree with the points Jeff makes. My only addition is that these days
(at least, in the U.S.) rather sophisticated bikes are being sold to
beginners. Seems like a recipe for problems.

Example: It's easy to buy an all-carbon bike if you've got the money.
It's not so easy to come by the unusual mechanical knowledge - like,
always use a low-range torque wrench; don't forget the friction paste;
don't clamp anything to the frame; etc.

And it's not just carbon fiber, that's just an example. Hell, I'd bet
a
third of Americans who have quick release hubs don't really know how to
use the QR levers. And who's not familiar with the sound of a chain
permanently grinding against a front derailleur cage?

--
- Frank Krygowski

So what is your solution for people who don't want to learn? Another
kind of lawyer lip solution? Because some people can't operate a quick
release we are stuck with this stupid solution which **** up the whole
idea of a quick release. What a solution. Did you see the coverage of
Gent Wevelgem classic? Probably not, but after a front flat Cavendish
got a front wheel from a team mate. Took them more than half a minute to
get the wheel out and in because of the lawyer lips. We are talking
about pro riders for crying out loud. As if front wheels were flying out
of forks all the time in the past.

No, I don't like lawyer lips. I grind them off my bikes.

In an ideal world, I think bike designs and bike sales would be much
better tailored to the real needs and abilities of the customer.
Something like this:

"Sorry, you failed to see how this QR lever works. You get nutted
axles. But if you study for a week, we'll let you take the test to
qualify for wing nuts."

"Sir, you're more than 30 pounds overweight. You don't qualify for
carbon fiber anything. Here's a nice steel bike that will work you
harder and help you to lose weight."

"Sorry, Ma'am, if you have to ask why anyone needs eight or more cogs in
back, I'm required to sell you a hub gear, not a derailleur bike."

"You say you ride only on bike paths? OK, but your minimum tire width
is now 32 mm. That's the law."

"It rains here. You're getting fenders whether or not the racers use
them. Oh, and since it gets dark here, you're getting lights as well."

I've always thought that the U.S. courts went overboard with consumer
protection. Certainly it is only right and proper not to sell
something that doesn't work properly but equally, I think, it is right
and proper to assume that someone who buys something understands how
to use it correctly.

If everyone who bought a car knew how to use it properly, no country on the
planet would need a police force.