V-brake balancing screws.

wrote in message
...
On Sunday, March 29, 2015 at 2:08:18 PM UTC-4, Ian Field wrote:
"Tosspot" wrote in message
...
On 28/03/15 21:03, Lou Holtman wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 3/28/2015 1:11 PM, Ian Field wrote:
Can I take those screws all the way out without anything
going twang?

The (allegedly) universal screw heads are pretty much
useless for either flat or crosspoint screwdriver. The plan
is to pull up outside the tools & fasteners shop, whip one
of the screws out to show at the counter and ask for same
everything except for what I buy to have socket cap heads.

Can I do that without the tension spring slipping out of
place - or do I have to wait till I have the pivot/spring
assembly apart?

Thanks for any help.

No reason not to. 4mm allen cap screws might be nice and they are
readily
available. Nothing will break or slip with the screws out.

4 mm? Are you sure? Mine are ordinary M3 screws. Head style doesn't
matter.

Istr mine were M3 as well.

Found the pack of "Toolbox" assorted screws I got from Ponundland - it
has
M4 & M5 in assorted lengths.

M4 fits my calliper, and I found a length only a tiny smidge longer than
the
original.

They have normal Philips heads so its all a lot less urgent now - I can
nip
in the fasteners place for a bag of socket-caps whenever I happen to be
passing.

WTH are you in the Orkney's ?

The fasteners place is in a corner of an obscure industrial estate some way
off the beaten track.

After 5 years of the Tories, we're only just starting to count down the
number of boarded up high street shops - specialist traders were hit much
harder, AFAIK; they're the only one left in my town (assuming they're still
there!).

On 29/03/15 21:46, Lou Holtman wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/28/2015 5:01 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Never understood screws with
a bi slotted head, as you call it. They also use them for the limit screws
of derailleurs. You have to be careful nit to damaged he heads because no
screwdriver fits properly.

I assume the idea is that any screwdriver will fit, at least
half-assedly. And derailleur limit screws require very little torque,
meaning precise fit isn't important. So the guy who's shifting is bunged
up has a chance of fixing it with whatever's in his tool bag.

Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use torx screws for all
the fasteners on a bike.


I agree. I carry a multi tool for road side repairs. To be useful it
has to have bits appropriate for multiple styles of fastener head. All
of one kind would make bike maintenance much simpler. I'd be happy with
Torx bits.

--
JS

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:46:10 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/28/2015 5:01 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Never understood screws with
a bi slotted head, as you call it. They also use them for the limit screws
of derailleurs. You have to be careful nit to damaged he heads because no
screwdriver fits properly.

I assume the idea is that any screwdriver will fit, at least
half-assedly. And derailleur limit screws require very little torque,
meaning precise fit isn't important. So the guy who's shifting is bunged
up has a chance of fixing it with whatever's in his tool bag.

Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use torx screws for all
the fasteners on a bike.

Ah, but you fail to see the advantage of universal screw heads. Since
none of them offer a really good fit for driver tools, the driver will
slip when over-torqued, thus providing a built in torque limiter. Were
the adjustment screws replaced with Torx head screws, it would be
possible to strip out the threads from the soft aluminum body. One
might also break off the head from small diameter bolts if the threads
were frozen.

The way the over-torque problem is to use shallow depth allen head or
Torx screw heads. Something like this:
http://images.gasgoo.com/MiMgIzA2MTQ5NDEwMA--/auto-part-torx-with-slot-self-tapping-screw-b-type.jpg
There's not enough grip area to do any major damage, but enough to get
the screw in and out. I don't think those types of screws are
available in M3 or M4 sizes. Notice the "crater" on the above screw
head. It's there to give the grease, dirt, and filth a place to go
when the driver is inserted.

The universal head also has the advantage of not collecting dirt and
filth. With a sloppy fit, the driver pushed the dirt out of the screw
head and not into the screw head, as it might with a Torx screw head.
It's bad enough getting the dirt out of an Allen screw head. Torx is
even more difficult and usually requires a paper clip.

Of course, Dr Who's sonic screwdriver will work with any type of screw
head or door lock.

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

You don't remember the very small diameter, but very long, screws in
the rear axle slot on coaster-brake bikes.... that always rusted in
place which meant that one couldn't align the wheel, except by
breaking them off?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:29:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.


I'm not sure as to bicycle maintenance. I was in a local shop one day
when a bloke I know dropped off a wheel; to have the flat fixed. After
he left I made a comment to the shop owner abut effete foreigners that
couldn't fix a flat and she replied that they did a significant amount
of business fixing flats for both locals and foreigners:-)

I've also seen mention, in bike magazines, of taking your bike to the
Bicycle Shop to have the shifting adjusted...

The shop I mentioned above also did a fixed rate "clean and tune up"
for those who didn't wash bicycles.


Resistance to collecting dirt may be a stretch, but suspect it might
have been an unintended benefit of the sloppy screw head design. The
common M5 Allen head screw is fairly easy to clean. An M3 Allen head,
not so easy.

Ok, break is over.

I'm not sure as to bicycle maintenance. I was in a local shop one day
when a bloke I know dropped off a wheel; to have the flat fixed. After
he left I made a comment to the shop owner abut effete foreigners that
couldn't fix a flat and she replied that they did a significant amount
of business fixing flats with both locals and foreigners:-)


--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/29/2015 2:39 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 28 Mar 2015 14:27:50 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

No reason not to. 4mm allen cap screws might be nice and
they are readily available. Nothing will break or slip with
the screws out.

If there's room, you might look into adding a plastic knob onto the
cap screw:
http://www.shear-loc.com/knobs.htm

But think of the air resistance!

More seriously, brakes don't have to be adjusted very often. It's
reasonable to require a tool for that operation.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/29/2015 6:11 PM, James wrote:
On 29/03/15 21:46, Lou Holtman wrote:


Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use torx screws
for all
the fasteners on a bike.


I agree. I carry a multi tool for road side repairs. To be useful it
has to have bits appropriate for multiple styles of fastener head. All
of one kind would make bike maintenance much simpler. I'd be happy with
Torx bits.

Well, you'd be happy until the day you realized you you needed to make
an adjustment and you'd left your Torx tool on your workbench. Your
pocketknife won't work with a Torx screw.

Can we compromise? A Torx head with a slot for emergency non-Torx use?
Remember, it's just an adjustment screw.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/29/2015 4:29 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.

Resistance to collecting dirt may be a stretch, but suspect it might
have been an unintended benefit of the sloppy screw head design. The
common M5 Allen head screw is fairly easy to clean. An M3 Allen head,
not so easy.

Ok, break is over.

I agree with the points Jeff makes. My only addition is that these days
(at least, in the U.S.) rather sophisticated bikes are being sold to
beginners. Seems like a recipe for problems.

Example: It's easy to buy an all-carbon bike if you've got the money.
It's not so easy to come by the unusual mechanical knowledge - like,
always use a low-range torque wrench; don't forget the friction paste;
don't clamp anything to the frame; etc.

And it's not just carbon fiber, that's just an example. Hell, I'd bet a
third of Americans who have quick release hubs don't really know how to
use the QR levers. And who's not familiar with the sound of a chain
permanently grinding against a front derailleur cage?

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 29/03/15 22:29, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

And he didn't reach for the impact driver!? I think I'm in the wrong
place here :-(

On 30/03/15 13:43, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 6:11 PM, James wrote:
On 29/03/15 21:46, Lou Holtman wrote:


Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use torx screws
for all
the fasteners on a bike.


I agree. I carry a multi tool for road side repairs. To be useful it
has to have bits appropriate for multiple styles of fastener head. All
of one kind would make bike maintenance much simpler. I'd be happy with
Torx bits.

Well, you'd be happy until the day you realized you you needed to make
an adjustment and you'd left your Torx tool on your workbench. Your
pocketknife won't work with a Torx screw.

Can we compromise? A Torx head with a slot for emergency non-Torx use?
Remember, it's just an adjustment screw.



Nop. Better to make the head protrude and have a knurled edge so we can
adjust it without tools ;-)

--
JS

On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 5:49:30 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 4:29 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.

Resistance to collecting dirt may be a stretch, but suspect it might
have been an unintended benefit of the sloppy screw head design. The
common M5 Allen head screw is fairly easy to clean. An M3 Allen head,
not so easy.

Ok, break is over.

I agree with the points Jeff makes. My only addition is that these days
(at least, in the U.S.) rather sophisticated bikes are being sold to
beginners. Seems like a recipe for problems.

Example: It's easy to buy an all-carbon bike if you've got the money.
It's not so easy to come by the unusual mechanical knowledge - like,
always use a low-range torque wrench; don't forget the friction paste;
don't clamp anything to the frame; etc.

And it's not just carbon fiber, that's just an example. Hell, I'd bet a
third of Americans who have quick release hubs don't really know how to
use the QR levers. And who's not familiar with the sound of a chain
permanently grinding against a front derailleur cage?

--
- Frank Krygowski

So what is your solution for people who don't want to learn? Another kind of lawyer lip solution? Because some people can't operate a quick release we are stuck with this stupid solution which **** up the whole idea of a quick release. What a solution. Did you see the coverage of Gent Wevelgem classic? Probably not, but after a front flat Cavendish got a front wheel from a team mate. Took them more than half a minute to get the wheel out and in because of the lawyer lips. We are talking about pro riders for crying out loud. As if front wheels were flying out of forks all the time in the past.

Lou