V-brake balancing screws.

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 6:11 PM, James wrote:
On 29/03/15 21:46, Lou Holtman wrote:


Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use torx screws
for all
the fasteners on a bike.


I agree. I carry a multi tool for road side repairs. To be useful it
has to have bits appropriate for multiple styles of fastener head. All
of one kind would make bike maintenance much simpler. I'd be happy with
Torx bits.

Well, you'd be happy until the day you realized you you needed to make an
adjustment and you'd left your Torx tool on your workbench. Your
pocketknife won't work with a Torx screw.

Can we compromise? A Torx head with a slot for emergency non-Torx use?
Remember, it's just an adjustment screw.


Hold on a second Frank. Didn't you just say in a nearby post?

More seriously, brakes don't have to be adjusted very often.
It's reasonable to require a tool for that operation.

So where do you sit on this? :-)

http://goo.gl/SIZvUo

COMMON here in general purpose sizes. usually in a flat head with washer flange.

as for ability, remeber the novice needs tutorials on where to start the chain, how to balance the screws.

getting into the tutorial stage when your busy with other stuff maybe taxing timewise...even to much mental, activity for the day.

yawl look at these behaviors from your world view not theirs. Your a bike nut, they're not.

The flat tie group is retarded or poorly organized, a procrastinator or overtaxed. What they figure, several times, the bike has only one flat every ten years so why buy tools...YES FUDDO YOU CAN BUY THE TOOLS.

Remember, many of you have no flipping idea on how to mount a tire
what you can do with the fasteners is take one of each out n go down to the store n buy 3 news ones of each in either cadmium or rhodium. GET IT OVER WITH !

ok ok who has a complete set of spare fuses in the mobile ?

On 3/30/2015 2:55 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 5:49:30 AM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 4:29 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.

Resistance to collecting dirt may be a stretch, but suspect it might
have been an unintended benefit of the sloppy screw head design. The
common M5 Allen head screw is fairly easy to clean. An M3 Allen head,
not so easy.

Ok, break is over.

I agree with the points Jeff makes. My only addition is that these days
(at least, in the U.S.) rather sophisticated bikes are being sold to
beginners. Seems like a recipe for problems.

Example: It's easy to buy an all-carbon bike if you've got the money.
It's not so easy to come by the unusual mechanical knowledge - like,
always use a low-range torque wrench; don't forget the friction paste;
don't clamp anything to the frame; etc.

And it's not just carbon fiber, that's just an example. Hell, I'd bet a
third of Americans who have quick release hubs don't really know how to
use the QR levers. And who's not familiar with the sound of a chain
permanently grinding against a front derailleur cage?

--
- Frank Krygowski

So what is your solution for people who don't want to learn? Another kind of lawyer lip solution? Because some people can't operate a quick release we are stuck with this stupid solution which **** up the whole idea of a quick release. What a solution. Did you see the coverage of Gent Wevelgem classic? Probably not, but after a front flat Cavendish got a front wheel from a team mate. Took them more than half a minute to get the wheel out and in because of the lawyer lips. We are talking about pro riders for crying out loud. As if front wheels were flying out of forks all the time in the past.

No, I don't like lawyer lips. I grind them off my bikes.

In an ideal world, I think bike designs and bike sales would be much
better tailored to the real needs and abilities of the customer.
Something like this:

"Sorry, you failed to see how this QR lever works. You get nutted
axles. But if you study for a week, we'll let you take the test to
qualify for wing nuts."

"Sir, you're more than 30 pounds overweight. You don't qualify for
carbon fiber anything. Here's a nice steel bike that will work you
harder and help you to lose weight."

"Sorry, Ma'am, if you have to ask why anyone needs eight or more cogs in
back, I'm required to sell you a hub gear, not a derailleur bike."

"You say you ride only on bike paths? OK, but your minimum tire width
is now 32 mm. That's the law."

"It rains here. You're getting fenders whether or not the racers use
them. Oh, and since it gets dark here, you're getting lights as well."


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/30/2015 8:56 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 6:11 PM, James wrote:
On 29/03/15 21:46, Lou Holtman wrote:


Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use torx screws
for all
the fasteners on a bike.


I agree. I carry a multi tool for road side repairs. To be useful it
has to have bits appropriate for multiple styles of fastener head. All
of one kind would make bike maintenance much simpler. I'd be happy with
Torx bits.

Well, you'd be happy until the day you realized you you needed to make an
adjustment and you'd left your Torx tool on your workbench. Your
pocketknife won't work with a Torx screw.

Can we compromise? A Torx head with a slot for emergency non-Torx use?
Remember, it's just an adjustment screw.


Hold on a second Frank. Didn't you just say in a nearby post?

More seriously, brakes don't have to be adjusted very often.
It's reasonable to require a tool for that operation.

So where do you sit on this? :-)

I'm in the "almost any tool should do it" camp. Same as the guys who
put in the slotted philips screw heads.

It occurs to me, I've never carried a Torx driver in my tool pouches.
I'd be ticked off if _anything_ on my bike absolutely required one.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/30/2015 10:42 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2015 2:55 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2015 at 5:49:30 AM UTC+2, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 4:29 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a
balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help
removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see
or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush
cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be
assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a
basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use
tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack
the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught
me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an
automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his
footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it
away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a
screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently,
one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be
too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting
your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have
servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some
shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper
class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never
operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive
a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college
shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others.
While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are
people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated
in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities.
Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with
limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive
tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the
relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied
torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that
somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems
like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle,
but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.

Resistance to collecting dirt may be a stretch, but
suspect it might
have been an unintended benefit of the sloppy screw head
design. The
common M5 Allen head screw is fairly easy to clean. An
M3 Allen head,
not so easy.

Ok, break is over.

I agree with the points Jeff makes. My only addition is
that these days
(at least, in the U.S.) rather sophisticated bikes are
being sold to
beginners. Seems like a recipe for problems.

Example: It's easy to buy an all-carbon bike if you've
got the money.
It's not so easy to come by the unusual mechanical
knowledge - like,
always use a low-range torque wrench; don't forget the
friction paste;
don't clamp anything to the frame; etc.

And it's not just carbon fiber, that's just an example.
Hell, I'd bet a
third of Americans who have quick release hubs don't
really know how to
use the QR levers. And who's not familiar with the sound
of a chain
permanently grinding against a front derailleur cage?

--
- Frank Krygowski

So what is your solution for people who don't want to
learn? Another kind of lawyer lip solution? Because some
people can't operate a quick release we are stuck with
this stupid solution which **** up the whole idea of a
quick release. What a solution. Did you see the coverage
of Gent Wevelgem classic? Probably not, but after a front
flat Cavendish got a front wheel from a team mate. Took
them more than half a minute to get the wheel out and in
because of the lawyer lips. We are talking about pro
riders for crying out loud. As if front wheels were flying
out of forks all the time in the past.

No, I don't like lawyer lips. I grind them off my bikes.

In an ideal world, I think bike designs and bike sales would
be much better tailored to the real needs and abilities of
the customer. Something like this:

"Sorry, you failed to see how this QR lever works. You get
nutted axles. But if you study for a week, we'll let you
take the test to qualify for wing nuts."

"Sir, you're more than 30 pounds overweight. You don't
qualify for carbon fiber anything. Here's a nice steel bike
that will work you harder and help you to lose weight."

"Sorry, Ma'am, if you have to ask why anyone needs eight or
more cogs in back, I'm required to sell you a hub gear, not
a derailleur bike."

"You say you ride only on bike paths? OK, but your minimum
tire width is now 32 mm. That's the law."

"It rains here. You're getting fenders whether or not the
racers use them. Oh, and since it gets dark here, you're
getting lights as well."



I hope that was humor and not that your Ideal World looks
like North Korea.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/30/2015 10:47 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2015 8:56 AM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2015 6:11 PM, James wrote:
On 29/03/15 21:46, Lou Holtman wrote:


Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be
extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use
torx screws
for all
the fasteners on a bike.


I agree. I carry a multi tool for road side repairs.
To be useful it
has to have bits appropriate for multiple styles of
fastener head. All
of one kind would make bike maintenance much simpler.
I'd be happy with
Torx bits.

Well, you'd be happy until the day you realized you you
needed to make an
adjustment and you'd left your Torx tool on your
workbench. Your
pocketknife won't work with a Torx screw.

Can we compromise? A Torx head with a slot for emergency
non-Torx use?
Remember, it's just an adjustment screw.


Hold on a second Frank. Didn't you just say in a nearby post?

More seriously, brakes don't have to be adjusted very often.
It's reasonable to require a tool for that operation.

So where do you sit on this? :-)

I'm in the "almost any tool should do it" camp. Same as the
guys who put in the slotted philips screw heads.

It occurs to me, I've never carried a Torx driver in my tool
pouches. I'd be ticked off if _anything_ on my bike
absolutely required one.


Doesn't affect you, but some relatively inexpensive folding
tools now include the disc brake Torx driver.

We sell them, but I can't imagine a use for it while on a
ride. Despite seeing a great number of equipment failures
(rust, crash, user error, all of it) over a great many
years, I have never seen a brake disc come loose from a hub.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

*))))))))))))))))))))))


It occurs to me, I've never carried a Torx driver in my tool pouches.
I'd be ticked off if _anything_ on my bike absolutely required one.

modern assemby lines use Torx on thinner sheet metal.

3 sets here n 4-5 special purchases....in the onboard tool box.

I like lawyers lips. LL are cool like airbags.

"John B. Slocomb" wrote in message
...
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 13:29:08 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

Anyone posting in a bicycle technology newsgroup can be assumed to
have some degree of mechanical dexterity. That's a basic requirement
for maintaining a bicycle. However, the ability to use tools
effectively is not a universal trait as many riders lack the ability
to make even simple adjustments. A friend, who taught me most of what
I know about Unix, is a good example. His father was an automobile
mechanic and did not want his son to follow in his footsteps. Every
time the kid picked up a tool, his father would take it away. When he
grew up, his son literally could not operate a screwdriver or even a
hammer. I tried to teach him, but failed. Apparently, one needs to
learn how to use tools early in life, as later will be too late.

There are castes and classes in the world where getting your hands
dirty is not becoming of their members. They have servants to do such
things. In the late 1960's, I went to college with some shining
examples of this. We had a large contingent of upper class Persian
(from Iran) foreign exchange students who had never operated a machine
more complicated than a door knob. Most could not drive a car or
possibly operate a bicycle. In the various college shops and labs,
they were a serious hazard to themselves and others. While this is an
extreme example of mechanical inability, there are people of all
levels of mechanical abilities that must be accommodated in the design
of a bicycle.

Bicycles are designed for owners of varying abilities. Department
store bicycles tend to be designed for riders with limited mechanical
skills. High end bicycles tend to be for compulsive tinkerers with
access to tools, own measuring equipment, and have the relevant
skills. An adjustment screw that self limits applied torque may have
been an innovation intended for low end bicycles that somehow snuck
into higher end components. I don't know but it seems like a good
idea on a small M3 screw for a department store bicycle, but as you
suggest, might be un-necessary on a higher end machine.


I'm not sure as to bicycle maintenance. I was in a local shop one day
when a bloke I know dropped off a wheel; to have the flat fixed. After
he left I made a comment to the shop owner abut effete foreigners that
couldn't fix a flat and she replied that they did a significant amount
of business fixing flats for both locals and foreigners:-)

Fixing a puncture at the roadside can be a bit fiddly - damn near impossible
if its ****ing with rain.

Its just so much easier to include a spare tube in the tool pouch.

"Tosspot" wrote in message
...
On 29/03/15 22:29, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sun, 29 Mar 2015 21:23:49 +0200, Lou Holtman
wrote:

Collecting dirt? Over torque a limit screw or a balacing screw? Give me
a
break.

Sure... take a break.

By coincidence, a friend just called asking for help removing some
deck screws. His vision is marginal, so he didn't see or clean the
dirt out of the screw head. Paper clip and paint brush cleared the
hole and out came the screw.

And he didn't reach for the impact driver!? I think I'm in the wrong
place here :-(

Its much more fun to beat a screwdriver slot in the top with a cold chisel.

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message
...
On 3/29/2015 6:11 PM, James wrote:
On 29/03/15 21:46, Lou Holtman wrote:


Stupid concept. Slotted headscrews are or should be extinct for decades.
Why keep them alive. I would not mind if they would use torx screws
for all
the fasteners on a bike.


I agree. I carry a multi tool for road side repairs. To be useful it
has to have bits appropriate for multiple styles of fastener head. All
of one kind would make bike maintenance much simpler. I'd be happy with
Torx bits.

Well, you'd be happy until the day you realized you you needed to make an
adjustment and you'd left your Torx tool on your workbench. Your
pocketknife won't work with a Torx screw.

Can we compromise? A Torx head with a slot for emergency non-Torx use?
Remember, it's just an adjustment screw.

It was the Philips head with a slot for emergency non-Philips that caused
all the aggravation in the first place.

As yet I haven't seen any multi-tools with Torx bits, they would probably
start to appear on the market if cycle manufacturers started using them.

A regular Torx driver (with a handle like a screwdriver) would tend to poke
holes in the tool pouch - the socket set style Torx bits would be OK, but
they sort of wobble a bit for turning adjustment screws.