Fenders. Or maybe mudguards.

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 23:24:19 -0800, Lou Holtman scribed:

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 00:51:28 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:

But for me, it's worth it.

We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you
questioned other peoples choice again. Why?
Exactly where did I question someone else's choice?


In your initial post you stated:
'I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
consider mounting fenders.'
English is not my first language but if someone is stunned/bemused in my
world they don't understand the choice of those people or in other words
question their choice.

True about undrstanding and questioning their choice is invitation for
education.
OTOH, if the comment offends you, then you're playing chippies on the
shoulder; some one will always knock it off.

We do not have the extreme cold weather in Australia, so I'm bemused when
people need to rug up in layers and layer to ride as I can get by with
wool on head, hands and feet so long as I'm moving. Then there is a layer
whilst moving and a thicker layer whilst stopped.

Back to raid, years ago i worked out wool socks and sandels was the best
for dealing with rain.

Fenders are a blah thing for me. Until I hit on custom flats for the mud,
the concentrated collected drivel off the bottom was an annoyance.

When riding in a group, we tend to ride in pairs and separated or a lone.

Of course, I've always been happy to be tail-end charle so people don't
fel left behind.

" writes:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop.../issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel

On 2/12/2021 2:27 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
" writes:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop.../issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel


That's reasonable logic. It may also be that riders
unprepared with mudguards were generally less prepared or
less conditioned in other ways as well. I don't know.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:54:40 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/12/2021 2:27 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
" writes:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop.../issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel

That's reasonable logic. It may also be that riders
unprepared with mudguards were generally less prepared or
less conditioned in other ways as well. I don't know.

I think you're right. Fenders are a real benefit riding in drizzle and standing water, but you get soaked in a rain storm whether you have fenders or not. Fenders and full rain gear will keep you comfortable longer, but its just a matter of time until you're soaked if it is really raining hard. This is what I use for really rainy days: https://tinyurl.com/4k5gfoo8 I have cleat cut-outs. I also keep a flare in a pannier, next to my AED.

It rained yesterday, turned to freezing rain and then snow. It is currently blowing snow pretty hard with a few inches on the street, so I'm not riding today - except maybe my rollers. Fresh snow has good traction, but I don't feel like putting on my fat tires. . . and adjusting my fenders . . . and riding in a freezing, blowing snow storm. I got no one to impress. I might put on my shoe cleats and go for a walk. I'm sure the other work-from-home COVID zombies will be out.

-- Jay Beattie.

On 2/12/2021 12:00 AM, wrote:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:

There is one effect, that makes you faster, at least in rain: Rider
comfort. I think in an older issue of Bicycle Quarterly Jan Heine did a
survey on equipment during a Paris-Brest-Paris with extremely foul
weather. If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between
"Did Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders: Numb toes, ankle pain, knee
pain, drivetrain worries, ..., all caused by the spraying of water and
dirt.

Best regards

Axel



That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris. On the way back, about 2 days after the start, it poured and poured and rained and rained for about 8 straight hours. And it was cold. Temps in the 50s Fahrenheit. It rained on me from about 10 PM to 3 AM on the way back. Buckets of rain at night and cold cold cold. So it did cause physical problems with the riders and bikes. BUT, PBP is not an official race. You just have to complete the ride in 80 or 84 or 90 total hours. And get to the various checkpoints before the cutoff time. But its not a race. You just have to ride at 10 mph constantly for the whole 90 hours and you make it. So you can stop and rest or shelter from the rain and cold. And there are towns and places to stop along the route. Every 50 miles or so. For me I rode 5 hours and 50 miles in the worst rain and cold possible before getting to a checkpoint with a shower and food and bed. I stopped there and cleaned up and rested for a few hours before continuing the next morning. Which was a warm pleasant day. It was only that 8 hour stretch of horrible rain and cold. And you could have avoided some of it without too much trouble.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant. The water was so strong it was falling out of the sky just as hard as it was splashing up from the road. Everything was soaked and cold.


I do wonder about a lot of Jan Heine's tales. Every ride seems to be
epic. Every bike seems to be wonderful, at least in most ways. Every
tire he sells is "supple." Every bit of equipment is admirably light,
but when it isn't, weight doesn't matter.

I think he's produced some good ideas and good data, but it's also clear
he's selling both magazines and equipment. I'd prefer some corroboration
from other sources.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/12/2021 11:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:54:40 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/12/2021 2:27 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
" writes:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop.../issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel

That's reasonable logic. It may also be that riders
unprepared with mudguards were generally less prepared or
less conditioned in other ways as well. I don't know.

I think you're right. Fenders are a real benefit riding in drizzle and standing water, but you get soaked in a rain storm whether you have fenders or not. Fenders and full rain gear will keep you comfortable longer, but its just a matter of time until you're soaked if it is really raining hard. This is what I use for really rainy days: https://tinyurl.com/4k5gfoo8 I have cleat cut-outs. I also keep a flare in a pannier, next to my AED.

It rained yesterday, turned to freezing rain and then snow. It is currently blowing snow pretty hard with a few inches on the street, so I'm not riding today - except maybe my rollers. Fresh snow has good traction, but I don't feel like putting on my fat tires. . . and adjusting my fenders . . . and riding in a freezing, blowing snow storm. I got no one to impress. I might put on my shoe cleats and go for a walk. I'm sure the other work-from-home COVID zombies will be out.

-- Jay Beattie.


'Global Warming' may not be warm but it sure is global:

https://www.rfi.fr/en/snowboarders-e...aine-s-capital

https://www.rfi.fr/en/snow-apocalypse-batters-moscow

Texas:
https://www.wsav.com/news/3-dead-30-...in-fort-worth/

Even the annual Kites on Ice is canceled for cold weather(!)

https://www.nbc15.com/2021/02/05/wis...-temperatures/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 2/12/2021 2:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 00:51:28 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 2/11/2021 5:38 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 11 februari 2021 om 23:17:10 UTC+1 schreef :
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight.

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you questioned other peoples choice again. Why?
Exactly where did I question someone else's choice?


In your initial post you stated:
'I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
consider mounting fenders.'
English is not my first language but if someone is stunned/bemused in my world they don't understand the choice of those people or in other words question their choice.

If I wanted to say "stunned" I'd have said "stunned." But I didn't.

If "bemused" conveys disapproval, as you seem to imply, it must be the
lowest possible level of disapproval. Hell, you've been a lot harsher
toward me when deriding my choice to ride with a handlebar bag.

I have never told anyone they must use fenders. I have never asked any
of my riding buddies "Why don't you use fenders?" Yes, I am a bit
surprised that so few American cyclists find them worthwhile. But am I
not allowed to hold that opinion?

What's far more surprising to me is that you are so easily offended at
such a vague wondering on my part - just as you get offended at any hint
of a riding style different from yours. It smacks of a weird insecurity
on your part. And it seems out of place in a discussion group.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 18:46:19 UTC+1 schreef AMuzi:
On 2/12/2021 11:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:54:40 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/12/2021 2:27 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
" writes:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop.../issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel

That's reasonable logic. It may also be that riders
unprepared with mudguards were generally less prepared or
less conditioned in other ways as well. I don't know.

I think you're right. Fenders are a real benefit riding in drizzle and standing water, but you get soaked in a rain storm whether you have fenders or not. Fenders and full rain gear will keep you comfortable longer, but its just a matter of time until you're soaked if it is really raining hard. This is what I use for really rainy days: https://tinyurl.com/4k5gfoo8 I have cleat cut-outs. I also keep a flare in a pannier, next to my AED.

It rained yesterday, turned to freezing rain and then snow. It is currently blowing snow pretty hard with a few inches on the street, so I'm not riding today - except maybe my rollers. Fresh snow has good traction, but I don't feel like putting on my fat tires. . . and adjusting my fenders . . . and riding in a freezing, blowing snow storm. I got no one to impress. I might put on my shoe cleats and go for a walk. I'm sure the other work-from-home COVID zombies will be out.

-- Jay Beattie.

'Global Warming' may not be warm but it sure is global:

https://www.rfi.fr/en/snowboarders-e...aine-s-capital

https://www.rfi.fr/en/snow-apocalypse-batters-moscow

Texas:
https://www.wsav.com/news/3-dead-30-...in-fort-worth/

Even the annual Kites on Ice is canceled for cold weather(!)

https://www.nbc15.com/2021/02/05/wis...-temperatures/
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Last week it was exceptional cold here. Half the country is ice skating which is a national thing. I don't have that gen. Todays ride:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/irXMorb3vPkjoaaZ7
I didn't need bloody fenders, I needed studded tires and an internal gear hub.
Still was ice in my water bottle after 15 minutes at home:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/b5Mjiqqheb6ZFQcg6

Lou

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 9:22:40 AM UTC-8, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:54:40 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/12/2021 2:27 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
" writes:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop.../issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel

That's reasonable logic. It may also be that riders
unprepared with mudguards were generally less prepared or
less conditioned in other ways as well. I don't know.
I think you're right. Fenders are a real benefit riding in drizzle and standing water, but you get soaked in a rain storm whether you have fenders or not. Fenders and full rain gear will keep you comfortable longer, but its just a matter of time until you're soaked if it is really raining hard. This is what I use for really rainy days: https://tinyurl.com/4k5gfoo8 I have cleat cut-outs. I also keep a flare in a pannier, next to my AED.

It rained yesterday, turned to freezing rain and then snow. It is currently blowing snow pretty hard with a few inches on the street, so I'm not riding today - except maybe my rollers. Fresh snow has good traction, but I don't feel like putting on my fat tires. . . and adjusting my fenders . . . and riding in a freezing, blowing snow storm. I got no one to impress. I might put on my shoe cleats and go for a walk. I'm sure the other work-from-home COVID zombies will be out.

-- Jay Beattie.
Yesterday it was supposed to start raining early and it didn't. Then it was supposed to start raining at noon, and it didn't. Then about 4 pm I drove up to the supermarket and suddenly the sky opened up and it rained so hard that there was about 2" of water running through the parking lot. It only lasted like that for perhaps 5 minutes and then almost stopped. I got home and it did that again. In the morning I had cut the lawn and spread Weed and Feed. So hopefully that will polish off the weedy grasses in the lawn.

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 10:00:23 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/12/2021 2:24 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 00:51:28 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 2/11/2021 5:38 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op donderdag 11 februari 2021 om 23:17:10 UTC+1 schreef :
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 2:08:08 PM UTC-5, jbeattie wrote:
... And my fast rain bike is still pretty fast even with fenders.

As with so many other things, I wonder how much fenders slow a bike. I suspect the effect is
tiny.

I can envision three drag effects. Weight is one, but fenders weigh, what, maybe a pound?
Probably not two pounds. That's a small fraction of the bike+rider weight.

I suppose the front fender adds a tiny bit of aero drag, but I suspect the rear fender acts as a
fairing for that wheel and reduces its drag, so that may be close to a wash, especially if the
front fender isn't overly wide.

The third effect I can envision would occur only when the fenders are really doing their job. The
stream of water kicked up the tire (especially the front one) sure is unpleasant; but on a bike
without fenders, most of it misses the bike. On a bike with a fender and a flap, most of that
stream smacks into the fender and gets accelerated up to the speed of the bike. That means
there's a rearward force on the bike. Kind of similar to the force you'd feel if someone were
spraying you with a water hose.

But for me, it's worth it.

We know Frank and there is nothing wrong with that, but you questioned other peoples choice again. Why?
Exactly where did I question someone else's choice?


In your initial post you stated:
'I'm still bemused by the fact that so many American bicyclists won't
consider mounting fenders.'
English is not my first language but if someone is stunned/bemused in my world they don't understand the choice of those people or in other words question their choice.
If I wanted to say "stunned" I'd have said "stunned." But I didn't.

If "bemused" conveys disapproval, as you seem to imply, it must be the
lowest possible level of disapproval. Hell, you've been a lot harsher
toward me when deriding my choice to ride with a handlebar bag.

I have never told anyone they must use fenders. I have never asked any
of my riding buddies "Why don't you use fenders?" Yes, I am a bit
surprised that so few American cyclists find them worthwhile. But am I
not allowed to hold that opinion?

What's far more surprising to me is that you are so easily offended at
such a vague wondering on my part - just as you get offended at any hint
of a riding style different from yours. It smacks of a weird insecurity
on your part. And it seems out of place in a discussion group.

Frank, Lou isn't a native English speaker. Arguing about his misunderstanding of your comments don't help the matter do they?