Fenders. Or maybe mudguards.

On 2/12/2021 3:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I have only one bike where permanently mounted full fenders make sense for the reason Frank mentioned and that is my utility bike. On all other bikes permanently mounted fenders are useless and/or a nuisance.

Here's an honest question (and I'll carefully say I'm not trying to
disagree with you in any way):

What, specifically, makes fenders a nuisance for you?

I do have some aspects of fenders that I don't like. But I'm curious
about others' views.

--
- Frank Krygowski

Op vrijdag 12 februari 2021 om 23:32:07 UTC+1 schreef jbeattie:
On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 1:31:34 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 2/12/2021 9:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:54:40 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/12/2021 2:27 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
" writes:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop.../issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel

That's reasonable logic. It may also be that riders
unprepared with mudguards were generally less prepared or
less conditioned in other ways as well. I don't know.

I think you're right. Fenders are a real benefit riding in drizzle and standing water, but you get soaked in a rain storm whether you have fenders or not.
Fenders and full rain gear will keep you comfortable longer, but its
just a matter of time until you're soaked if it is really raining hard.
This is what I use for really rainy days: https://tinyurl.com/4k5gfoo8
I have cleat cut-outs. I also keep a flare in a pannier, next to my AED..

It rained yesterday, turned to freezing rain and then snow. It is currently blowing snow pretty hard with a few inches on the street, so I'm not riding today - except maybe my rollers. Fresh snow has good traction, but I don't feel like putting on my fat tires. . . and adjusting my fenders . . . and riding in a freezing, blowing snow storm. I got no one to impress. I might put on my shoe cleats and go for a walk. I'm sure the other work-from-home COVID zombies will be out.

-- Jay Beattie.
I'm not so sure that you get soaked with or without fenders, at least
for less-than-epic rides. Yeah, there's the sweat, but a good vented
jacket helps cut that down.

Rain generally comes down from above, and road spray comes up from
below. Most primary rain gear (jackets, and capes for us old guys) does
great for the first and not so good for the second.

Most decent cycling jackets have a duck's-ass tail to keep your butt dry
- at least from what's coming down from above. And with drop bars,
torso angle is gonna help keep your crotch dry - again from rainfall.

But a good spray up from below, and your butt/crotch can get soaked with
ice-cold water. Avoiding just one good splash like that make the
fenders worth it for me.

When I last rode anything long in the rain (maybe 2017, or 2014 which
had epic wet Brevets in Oregon) I used "Rainlegs" sort of chaps-like
not-pants to go down to the knees, which, along with fenders, did a nice
job of keeping the legs/crotch dry without turning the ride into a
day-long sauna.

https://www.rainlegs.com

Yeah, that's sort of a recommendation.
I have a nice lightweight Showers Pass jacket that will soak through after a couple hours of rain and one of their heavier jackets that I use for commuting that I've never ridden to soak-through, IIRC, but I use that for short rides. I should probably start using that jacket more. I'll get leaking down the neck on both of those.

I've never had any breathable jacket that held up all day in the rain, but maybe one is out there somewhere -- and under a $ billion. I use Amfib tights, which are pretty good and keep my crotch, usually. I have lots of pairs of booties, and all of them leak through after a while. On most rides, I do keep my crotch and butt pretty dry, but all bets are off if it is really raining, and I'm descending or its windy.

-- Jay Beattie.


Breathable rain jackets are the biggest scam in cycling clothes when riding at 150 W and up even the ridiculous expensive ones.

Lou

On 2/12/2021 3:39 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/12/2021 12:00 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
There is one effect, that makes you faster, at least in rain: Rider
comfort. I think in an older issue of Bicycle Quarterly Jan Heine did a
survey on equipment during a Paris-Brest-Paris with extremely foul
weather. If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between
"Did Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders: Numb toes, ankle pain, knee
pain, drivetrain worries, ..., all caused by the spraying of water and
dirt.

Best regards

Axel


That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris. On the way back, about 2
days after the start, it poured and poured and rained and rained for
about 8 straight hours. And it was cold. Temps in the 50s Fahrenheit.
It rained on me from about 10 PM to 3 AM on the way back. Buckets of
rain at night and cold cold cold. So it did cause physical problems
with the riders and bikes. BUT, PBP is not an official race. You just
have to complete the ride in 80 or 84 or 90 total hours. And get to the
various checkpoints before the cutoff time. But its not a race. You
just have to ride at 10 mph constantly for the whole 90 hours and you
make it. So you can stop and rest or shelter from the rain and cold.
And there are towns and places to stop along the route. Every 50 miles
or so. For me I rode 5 hours and 50 miles in the worst rain and cold
possible before getting to a checkpoint with a shower and food and bed.
I stopped there and cleaned up and rested for a few hours before
continuing the next morning. Which was a warm pleasant day. It was
only that 8 hour stretch of horrible rain and cold. And you could have
avoided some of it without too much trouble.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant. The water
was so strong it was falling out of the sky just as hard as it was
splashing up from the road. Everything was soaked and cold.

I do wonder about a lot of Jan Heine's tales. Every ride seems to be
epic. Every bike seems to be wonderful, at least in most ways. Every
tire he sells is "supple." Every bit of equipment is admirably light,
but when it isn't, weight doesn't matter.

I think he's produced some good ideas and good data, but it's also clear
he's selling both magazines and equipment. I'd prefer some corroboration
from other sources.


Would you prefer your corroboration from other people who are selling
magazines or equipment, or do you prefer to get your data from the cadre of
independently wealthy cyclist PhDs who have taken a vow of impartiality?
Everybody’s biased.

I don't believe everybody is biased - or at least, not on every topic.
If we pretend there's nobody who will give honest data and honest
evaluations of data, we have to throw out the concept of "science."

I think Jan Heine has done good work regarding rolling resistance of
tires. I appreciated his wind tunnel data from long ago. But as one
example, I'm pretty skeptical of his concept of "planing" regarding
bikes - i.e. that there's an undefined property in certain frames that
makes them significantly faster than somewhat similar frames of
identical weight with identical components. His justification for that
seems entirely anecdotal.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2/12/2021 4:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/12/2021 3:27 PM, Lou Holtman wrote:

I have only one bike where permanently mounted full
fenders make sense for the reason Frank mentioned and that
is my utility bike. On all other bikes permanently mounted
fenders are useless and/or a nuisance.

Here's an honest question (and I'll carefully say I'm not
trying to disagree with you in any way):

What, specifically, makes fenders a nuisance for you?

I do have some aspects of fenders that I don't like. But I'm
curious about others' views.


On my bike with no mudguards, there's no not-duct-tape way
to mount them, there isn't room under the brake bridge or
crown (or calipers) and when it's wet on a Sunday morning
I'll do something else, such as ride my mudguard-equipped
bike to a coffee shop and read the paper.

BTW it's an absolute joy on a sunny day and very different
from my less-zippy bikes. Like having two very different
girlfriends- one should not want to compare them so much as
appreciate each for her own charms.

Would you screw a roof rack to a Pagani?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:34:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 1:47:22 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
There's always humor:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/20210...d0baa11a6.html

Winnie the Pooh banned coal imports from Australia... Just
in time! Coal prices in China were Y450/tonne in January,
now Y850. Time to export some nice Nederlands ice skates!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


1 Yuan equals 15 US cents. Roughly. So 450 Yuan is $67.50. 850 Yuan is $127.50. About double the price for one ton of coal. Google search said in 2019 in the USA, price of one ton of coal delivered to the power plant was $38.53. National average. Delivered price is cost at mine, $30.93, plus railroad transport of about $7.60. I do not know if there is any retail sellers of coal left in the USA. I'm not sure anyone uses coal burning furnaces in their houses anymore and has a pickup load of coal delivered to their house. Guessing China does use coal in individual houses for furnace heat and has a retail delivery system.

http://en.sxcoal.com

The Chinese report seems to show that "coal " varies in price, over
some 19 grades and types, depending on quality and use with the
highest currently charted price being 2050 RMB/ton and the lowest
being 352 RMB/ton as of 2021-02-05. Or, in U.S. dollars from
$307/ton to as low as $52.80 and only two of the lower priced coals
are listed as "import" and cost about $48/ton.

The largest change in coal price is for something called "Liulin
Low-sulphur" from about 1400 RMP on 2020/6/09 to about 2600 RMB on
2020/12/18.

The only two coals I see with a current cost in the 800 -900RBM/ton
range are "Guangzhou 5500", currently at 930/ton having decreased from
a high of about 1,000/ton and "Jincheng Anthracite Mid-lump" which is
currently at 960/ton which seems to have been at about 950/ton on
October, dropped in price and then risen to the current price.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 2/12/2021 2:32 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 1:31:34 PM UTC-8, Mark J. wrote:
On 2/12/2021 9:22 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 5:54:40 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/12/2021 2:27 AM, Axel Reichert wrote:
" writes:

On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between "Did
Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders

That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris.

Yes, it was. I now found the reference, see below.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/shop.../issues/bq-22/

I read the full article online at some point, but cannot find it
any more. At least the summary in the link given hints as follows:

Riders with fenders suffered less than half as many DNFs due to
problems with their lower extremities on this rainy ride.

Best regards

Axel

That's reasonable logic. It may also be that riders
unprepared with mudguards were generally less prepared or
less conditioned in other ways as well. I don't know.

I think you're right. Fenders are a real benefit riding in drizzle and standing water, but you get soaked in a rain storm whether you have fenders or not.
Fenders and full rain gear will keep you comfortable longer, but its
just a matter of time until you're soaked if it is really raining hard.
This is what I use for really rainy days: https://tinyurl.com/4k5gfoo8
I have cleat cut-outs. I also keep a flare in a pannier, next to my AED.

It rained yesterday, turned to freezing rain and then snow. It is currently blowing snow pretty hard with a few inches on the street, so I'm not riding today - except maybe my rollers. Fresh snow has good traction, but I don't feel like putting on my fat tires. . . and adjusting my fenders . . . and riding in a freezing, blowing snow storm. I got no one to impress. I might put on my shoe cleats and go for a walk. I'm sure the other work-from-home COVID zombies will be out.

-- Jay Beattie.
I'm not so sure that you get soaked with or without fenders, at least
for less-than-epic rides. Yeah, there's the sweat, but a good vented
jacket helps cut that down.

Rain generally comes down from above, and road spray comes up from
below. Most primary rain gear (jackets, and capes for us old guys) does
great for the first and not so good for the second.

Most decent cycling jackets have a duck's-ass tail to keep your butt dry
- at least from what's coming down from above. And with drop bars,
torso angle is gonna help keep your crotch dry - again from rainfall.

But a good spray up from below, and your butt/crotch can get soaked with
ice-cold water. Avoiding just one good splash like that make the
fenders worth it for me.

When I last rode anything long in the rain (maybe 2017, or 2014 which
had epic wet Brevets in Oregon) I used "Rainlegs" sort of chaps-like
not-pants to go down to the knees, which, along with fenders, did a nice
job of keeping the legs/crotch dry without turning the ride into a
day-long sauna.

https://www.rainlegs.com

Yeah, that's sort of a recommendation.

I have a nice lightweight Showers Pass jacket that will soak through after a couple hours of rain and one of their heavier jackets that I use for commuting that I've never ridden to soak-through, IIRC, but I use that for short rides. I should probably start using that jacket more. I'll get leaking down the neck on both of those.

I've never had any breathable jacket that held up all day in the rain, but maybe one is out there somewhere -- and under a $ billion. I use Amfib tights, which are pretty good and keep my crotch, usually. I have lots of pairs of booties, and all of them leak through after a while. On most rides, I do keep my crotch and butt pretty dry, but all bets are off if it is really raining, and I'm descending or its windy.

-- Jay Beattie.

Yeah, all day, I can see that might put a strain on a jacket.
I think the longest I've been in the rain is 100km (during a 300km
brevet). A ride that ends dry is usually OK by me if I have managed
well enough to avoid hypothermia.

I got a pair of Amfib tights recently, and I like 'em fine below about
45F, but above that, I'll soak through from the inside. Haven't tried
'em in the rain yet.

Booties are a puzzle. The only ones I've had that fit snug enough at
the top to keep rain from eventually seeping down also wore the skin on
my ankles raw. (I do know to tuck the socks down and *not* tuck the
tights into the booties.)

I have to admit I've gotten lazy in winter since I got a nice smart
trainer. My last must-ride winter events were a series of Brevets in
OR/WA (some were really "Permanents") in 12 consecutive months '15-'16
that, believe it or not, I managed to do without any rain, though there
was a hard mist on the December ride.

Mark J.

On 2/12/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:34:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 1:47:22 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
There's always humor:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/20210...d0baa11a6.html

Winnie the Pooh banned coal imports from Australia... Just
in time! Coal prices in China were Y450/tonne in January,
now Y850. Time to export some nice Nederlands ice skates!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


1 Yuan equals 15 US cents. Roughly. So 450 Yuan is $67.50. 850 Yuan is $127.50. About double the price for one ton of coal. Google search said in 2019 in the USA, price of one ton of coal delivered to the power plant was $38.53. National average. Delivered price is cost at mine, $30.93, plus railroad transport of about $7.60. I do not know if there is any retail sellers of coal left in the USA. I'm not sure anyone uses coal burning furnaces in their houses anymore and has a pickup load of coal delivered to their house. Guessing China does use coal in individual houses for furnace heat and has a retail delivery system.

http://en.sxcoal.com

The Chinese report seems to show that "coal " varies in price, over
some 19 grades and types, depending on quality and use with the
highest currently charted price being 2050 RMB/ton and the lowest
being 352 RMB/ton as of 2021-02-05. Or, in U.S. dollars from
$307/ton to as low as $52.80 and only two of the lower priced coals
are listed as "import" and cost about $48/ton.

The largest change in coal price is for something called "Liulin
Low-sulphur" from about 1400 RMP on 2020/6/09 to about 2600 RMB on
2020/12/18.

The only two coals I see with a current cost in the 800 -900RBM/ton
range are "Guangzhou 5500", currently at 930/ton having decreased from
a high of about 1,000/ton and "Jincheng Anthracite Mid-lump" which is
currently at 960/ton which seems to have been at about 950/ton on
October, dropped in price and then risen to the current price.


'I only know what I read in the papers'.
Mine has a paywall on their internet version.

Here's a similar article not including price chart:

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-...14-p56u0c.html

Not only coal price, but also from Sydney Morning Herald:

"It's pushing up the cost of supply of coal, it's increasing
the cost to coke, but it's also affecting the quality of
material they are producing because there's not that much
low-sulphur premium coal around, so they're having to use
higher sulphur-content coal which has an impact on blast
furnace productivity and strength of steel you produce."

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/12/2021 3:39 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 2/12/2021 12:00 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, February 11, 2021 at 4:45:13 PM UTC-6, Axel Reichert wrote:
There is one effect, that makes you faster, at least in rain: Rider
comfort. I think in an older issue of Bicycle Quarterly Jan Heine did a
survey on equipment during a Paris-Brest-Paris with extremely foul
weather. If I remember correctly, there was a strong correlation between
"Did Not Finish" and the non-use of fenders: Numb toes, ankle pain, knee
pain, drivetrain worries, ..., all caused by the spraying of water and
dirt.

Best regards

Axel


That was most likely 2007 Paris Brest Paris. On the way back, about 2
days after the start, it poured and poured and rained and rained for
about 8 straight hours. And it was cold. Temps in the 50s Fahrenheit.
It rained on me from about 10 PM to 3 AM on the way back. Buckets of
rain at night and cold cold cold. So it did cause physical problems
with the riders and bikes. BUT, PBP is not an official race. You just
have to complete the ride in 80 or 84 or 90 total hours. And get to the
various checkpoints before the cutoff time. But its not a race. You
just have to ride at 10 mph constantly for the whole 90 hours and you
make it. So you can stop and rest or shelter from the rain and cold.
And there are towns and places to stop along the route. Every 50 miles
or so. For me I rode 5 hours and 50 miles in the worst rain and cold
possible before getting to a checkpoint with a shower and food and bed.
I stopped there and cleaned up and rested for a few hours before
continuing the next morning. Which was a warm pleasant day. It was
only that 8 hour stretch of horrible rain and cold. And you could have
avoided some of it without too much trouble.

So I am very skeptical of Jan Heine's Bicycle Quarterly correlation of
no fenders and Did Not Finish status. The people who did not finish
were not strong enough and gave up. Fenders were irrelevant. The water
was so strong it was falling out of the sky just as hard as it was
splashing up from the road. Everything was soaked and cold.

I do wonder about a lot of Jan Heine's tales. Every ride seems to be
epic. Every bike seems to be wonderful, at least in most ways. Every
tire he sells is "supple." Every bit of equipment is admirably light,
but when it isn't, weight doesn't matter.

I think he's produced some good ideas and good data, but it's also clear
he's selling both magazines and equipment. I'd prefer some corroboration
from other sources.


Would you prefer your corroboration from other people who are selling
magazines or equipment, or do you prefer to get your data from the cadre of
independently wealthy cyclist PhDs who have taken a vow of impartiality?
Everybody’s biased.

I don't believe everybody is biased - or at least, not on every topic.
If we pretend there's nobody who will give honest data and honest
evaluations of data, we have to throw out the concept of "science."

I think Jan Heine has done good work regarding rolling resistance of
tires. I appreciated his wind tunnel data from long ago. But as one
example, I'm pretty skeptical of his concept of "planing" regarding
bikes - i.e. that there's an undefined property in certain frames that
makes them significantly faster than somewhat similar frames of
identical weight with identical components. His justification for that
seems entirely anecdotal.


Perhaps not consciously biased (as in “I need to sell more widgets - time
to write a glowing article�), but every person interprets the same raw data
a bit differently. Perhaps the best example of experimenter bias comes
when an experiment fails to give the expected result, but the actual
mechanism isn’t immediately discovered because it was initially thought to
be totally implausible.

On Thu, 11 Feb 2021 14:40:25 -0800 (PST), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

A lot of bicyclists like to use a bicycling rain cape in conjunction with full fenders. That can make for very pleasant riding in milder weather.

I thought a hooded rain cape was a wonderful idea, and started
carrying one when the weather was iffy. One day it started to rain
just as I was leaving a parking lot, so I stopped, put on the cape,
re-mounted, looked back to see whether it was safe to resume riding,
dismounted, and took off the cape.

It hung on a hook in the back entry until it fell apart.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

rOn Fri, 12 Feb 2021 18:59:13 -0600, AMuzi
wrote:

On 2/12/2021 5:57 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 12 Feb 2021 12:34:49 -0800 (PST), "
wrote:

On Friday, February 12, 2021 at 1:47:22 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
There's always humor:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/a/20210...d0baa11a6.html

Winnie the Pooh banned coal imports from Australia... Just
in time! Coal prices in China were Y450/tonne in January,
now Y850. Time to export some nice Nederlands ice skates!
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


1 Yuan equals 15 US cents. Roughly. So 450 Yuan is $67.50. 850 Yuan is $127.50. About double the price for one ton of coal. Google search said in 2019 in the USA, price of one ton of coal delivered to the power plant was $38.53. National average. Delivered price is cost at mine, $30.93, plus railroad transport of about $7.60. I do not know if there is any retail sellers of coal left in the USA. I'm not sure anyone uses coal burning furnaces in their houses anymore and has a pickup load of coal delivered to their house. Guessing China does use coal in individual houses for furnace heat and has a retail delivery system.

http://en.sxcoal.com

The Chinese report seems to show that "coal " varies in price, over
some 19 grades and types, depending on quality and use with the
highest currently charted price being 2050 RMB/ton and the lowest
being 352 RMB/ton as of 2021-02-05. Or, in U.S. dollars from
$307/ton to as low as $52.80 and only two of the lower priced coals
are listed as "import" and cost about $48/ton.

The largest change in coal price is for something called "Liulin
Low-sulphur" from about 1400 RMP on 2020/6/09 to about 2600 RMB on
2020/12/18.

The only two coals I see with a current cost in the 800 -900RBM/ton
range are "Guangzhou 5500", currently at 930/ton having decreased from
a high of about 1,000/ton and "Jincheng Anthracite Mid-lump" which is
currently at 960/ton which seems to have been at about 950/ton on
October, dropped in price and then risen to the current price.


'I only know what I read in the papers'.
Mine has a paywall on their internet version.

Here's a similar article not including price chart:

https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-...14-p56u0c.html

Not only coal price, but also from Sydney Morning Herald:

"It's pushing up the cost of supply of coal, it's increasing
the cost to coke, but it's also affecting the quality of
material they are producing because there's not that much
low-sulphur premium coal around, so they're having to use
higher sulphur-content coal which has an impact on blast
furnace productivity and strength of steel you produce."

Yes, but I also read that China is increasing their coal imports from
Indonesia to make up for the door closing on Australian coal and in
fact the Indonesians recently announced that they had signed a deal
with China to sell them something like 200 million tons next year.

As for the higher cost of coal in China I wonder whether it being the
coldest winter in 50 years of Chinese history has anything to do with
it?

Sulphur in steel is a funny thing. Generally, I believe, one wants to
hold levels of 0.04% or lower but at the same time "free maching
steel" has a sulphur content of up to 0.4% and they even have stuff
called "resulfurized steel". The most apparent result of high sulphur
content is that the high sulphur steels do not weld as well and may be
more brittle although I can't find any data on sulphur content and
brittleness, only a general statement.
--
Cheers,

John B.