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#41
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
Brad Anders wrote:
How do you know for certain (dope tests don't count - we know they can be beaten) that Jeanson's competitors weren't using EPO or some other form of doping? Because Jeanson was on EPO and she was beating them? GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: Are you speculating that Bessette might of used EPO? I don't believe it. She would be about the last person that would remind me of a cheater. Gonna have to agree with Brucie on this one. But if he doesn't stop writing "...might of..." instead of "...might have...", I think I'm going to punch him. |
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#42
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
Who is making claims that EPO extends careers? --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReactionBicycles.com I said perhaps it could extend their tour records, but even a career is relatively short in cycling compared to a typical 25 year career job, except Longo. If a rider has a five or ten year career, he would benefit from EPO during that period obviously. True, he might blow out his cylinders over time, but he wants the check and to build a nest egg for his family. With a job that hard, and a career that short, you better make your money during that period, otherwise you Dad's advise was correct. Don't go into cycling! |
#43
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
In article ,
"Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote in message ... Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: If we accept the idea that EPO is/was incredibly widespread, how do we also accept the idea that its use produces a "Huge peformance difference, whic can extand a tour winning streak?" We've pretty much indicted the podium of every Grand Tour of the past decade at this point. Perhaps if we accept that Greg LeMond was the only clean cyclist in history, he might still be out there, winning Grand Tours, if doping was gone? In both examples I citied, EPO use didn't exist when the other five time tour winners won. For them, EPO marks a big improvement today over what those guys were using way back then. If those guys had access to EPO, it's possible they too could of won perhaps more tours. Just saying. The other example I citied still applies today to the women, but not the men. Very few if any were using EPO when Jeanson won during that period. In fact, I would have to look at the doping list, cause I can't recall offhand another pro women who used EPO during Jeansons time that got caught. After yes like Bouba and Moreno, but not before. Zina used steroids, not EPO. I recall also the Columbian rider. I think it's generally accepted knowledge, and if you talk to the pro women they won't be able to report that much of that was going on. With Jeanson, they would tell you they knew or highly suspected she was juicing. The women just don't have much incentive to do that. For them racing is more a social scene. EPO isn't a fountain of youth. It's more like high-octane gas that revs up the engine (and like any drug that revs up the engine, it carries dangers of destroying that same engine by running it too hard... as do many forms of doping... the old light that burns twice as bright lasts half as long thing). Who is making claims that EPO extends careers? In an environment where use is widespread, I don't see it. I do not see EPO this way, and this is the first time I heard this view of EPO. Can you cite any research on it? -- Michael Press |
#44
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Does EPO lengthen or shorten athletic career?
"Michael Press" wrote in message
... In article , "Mike Jacoubowsky" wrote: "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote in message ... Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: If we accept the idea that EPO is/was incredibly widespread, how do we also accept the idea that its use produces a "Huge peformance difference, whic can extand a tour winning streak?" We've pretty much indicted the podium of every Grand Tour of the past decade at this point. Perhaps if we accept that Greg LeMond was the only clean cyclist in history, he might still be out there, winning Grand Tours, if doping was gone? In both examples I citied, EPO use didn't exist when the other five time tour winners won. For them, EPO marks a big improvement today over what those guys were using way back then. If those guys had access to EPO, it's possible they too could of won perhaps more tours. Just saying. The other example I citied still applies today to the women, but not the men. Very few if any were using EPO when Jeanson won during that period. In fact, I would have to look at the doping list, cause I can't recall offhand another pro women who used EPO during Jeansons time that got caught. After yes like Bouba and Moreno, but not before. Zina used steroids, not EPO. I recall also the Columbian rider. I think it's generally accepted knowledge, and if you talk to the pro women they won't be able to report that much of that was going on. With Jeanson, they would tell you they knew or highly suspected she was juicing. The women just don't have much incentive to do that. For them racing is more a social scene. EPO isn't a fountain of youth. It's more like high-octane gas that revs up the engine (and like any drug that revs up the engine, it carries dangers of destroying that same engine by running it too hard... as do many forms of doping... the old light that burns twice as bright lasts half as long thing). Who is making claims that EPO extends careers? In an environment where use is widespread, I don't see it. I do not see EPO this way, and this is the first time I heard this view of EPO. Can you cite any research on it? -- Michael Press My view or Keith's? What claims has anyone made about EPO beyond enhancing the blood's ability to carry oxygen? There's nothing I've heard regarding EPO's ability to "protect" any part of the body from damage due to over-exertion; it doesn't increase muscle bulk, it doesn't metabolize fat better, it just does one thing (and does it very well). Through careful training and recovery techniques you can extend the body's ability to deal with muscle, tendon & ligament damage, but ultimately many (perhaps most?) athletes are limited as they age by their ability to deal with those issues. Toss in EPO, which is going to increase those stresses, with no mechanism to mitigate the damage, and I don't see how a case can be made for it extending an athlete's useful time in the saddle. Having said all that, the flaw in my argument would be if it is the case that an athlete is in greater need of EPO as they age due to significant naturally-occuring decreases in oxygen-carrying capability. There are people with significant medical backgrounds here. Hopefully someone will chim in. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA |
#45
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
On Jun 9, 10:54*am, "B. Lafferty" wrote:
hgh is the closest we have to a fountain of youth. Not even close: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/270/14/1694 Andy Coggan |
#46
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
On Jun 8, 9:24*pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote:
Brad Anders wrote: On Jun 8, 12:49 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote: EPO use is key, critical in how it changed the record books. Look at Jeanson for a clue, stripping 50 wins out of Bessette's grasp, and a huge amount of prize money as well How do you know for certain (dope tests don't count - we know they can be beaten) that Jeanson's competitors weren't using EPO or some other form of doping? Because Jeanson was on EPO and she was beating them? Brad Anders Are you speculating that Bessette might of used EPO? I don't believe it. She would be about the last person that would remind me of a cheater. No, I"m pointing out to you that relying on your personal views of a person's character as to whether or not they're a likely doper has been proven over and over and over to be wrong. I have no idea of if Bessette is a doper - neither do you, regardless of your beliefs about her character. How do you know that she wasn't ever given an injection or medicine by a team doctor that was illegal without her knowledge? How do you know she never inadvertantly took a supplement with a banned substance? How do you know she wasn't pulling the wool over eyes and intentionally doping? All of those scenarios could lead to a positive test, The fact is you have no idea. Your conjectures about Jeanson's robbing anyone of victories is based on a false belief that you somehow know her competition wasn't doping. You don't. The only thing we can go by today is that when someone tests positive, there's a significant probability that they're a doper. Other than that, we know nothing as to who is doping and who isn't, intentionally or otherwise. Brad Anders |
#47
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
Andy Coggan wrote:
On Jun 9, 10:54 am, "B. Lafferty" wrote: hgh is the closest we have to a fountain of youth. Not even close: http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/270/14/1694 Unavailable but I guess the title summarises: Growth Hormone Therapy for the Elderly: The Fountain of Youth Proves Toxic - Yarasheski and Zachwieja - JAMA 1993 |
#48
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Fred Flintstein wrote: On 6/8/2010 2:49 PM, GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: Anton Berlin wrote: On Jun 8, 2:05 pm, Fred wrote: On 6/8/2010 1:52 PM, GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: GoneBeforeMyTime wrote: This is grevious I am sure to Merckx. Fockstick, No, I am certain it is not. Merckx was busted three times for dope. Anquetil, may he rest in peace, would also be totally OK with it. He was quite outspoken about the need to be properly prepared. We don't have to speculate about Hinault. He's spent too much time on the Tour podium congratulating LANCE. Fred Flintstein I haven't soent too much time but you're right about those three and almost any rider that has a name on the international scale is more than likely doped in one form or another. Anytime I go to look, there's dope, dope connections or dope attempts (same as doped) - just got caught making the buy. My point is that Merckx had a hard time swallowing Lance winning five tours, then six and seven breaking his record he held with the others. I followed Merckx comments during those years. I read a lot of that stuff he said. It's a fact. I would bet all five would take issue over EPO compared to what those guys were using back then. Huge performance difference, which can extend a tour winning streak. EPO use is key, critical in how it changed the record books. Look at Jeanson for a clue, stripping 50 wins out of Bessette's grasp, and a huge amount of prize money as well. Fockstick, Bet you Indurain wouldn't have an issue with EPO. You're so far off base you've lost your understanding of what a base looks like or represents. Fred Flintstein You really are a bitter old ****. Close. He's actually a completely correct bitter old ****. |
#49
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
GoneBeforeMyTime wrote:
Brad Anders wrote: On Jun 8, 12:49 pm, "GoneBeforeMyTime" wrote: EPO use is key, critical in how it changed the record books. Look at Jeanson for a clue, stripping 50 wins out of Bessette's grasp, and a huge amount of prize money as well How do you know for certain (dope tests don't count - we know they can be beaten) that Jeanson's competitors weren't using EPO or some other form of doping? Because Jeanson was on EPO and she was beating them? Brad Anders Are you speculating that Bessette might of used EPO? I don't believe it. She would be about the last person that would remind me of a cheater. Yeah. Tyler was clean, too. He was clean cut, and had a dog, and everything. Honestly, you have no way of knowing. Could be the grumpy people you don't like are clean; and the smiling, happy sociopaths you love are dirty as hell. |
#50
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Landis picks Lemond's Lawyer
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