Centuar Ultra-t-shift sstem

On 5/21/2021 11:22 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 8:13:57 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op vrijdag 21 mei 2021 om 16:30:20 UTC+2 schreef :
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 12:30:32 AM UTC-7, wrote:
Op vrijdag 21 mei 2021 om 02:11:05 UTC+2 schreef :
I assume that Andrew would be someone that could answer this question, I have a set of the 10 speed Centaur Ultra-shifters. They don't have the same size bolt for locking the shifters onto the handlebars. But the smaller size hex wrench doesn't seem to work.

Do these things use something really dumb like a Torx fitting and if so that would require some special tool and where could that be obtained?
Its a Torx 25 bolt. Dumb? Torx is a superior interface compared to a hex interface. You better get used to it and buy a set of Torx wrenches. An engineer here at work who uses a allen bolt instead of a Torx in one of their designs get ‘fired’.
Lou, I should add that at the spot in the hoods where the Torx wrench is inserted the hoods on the ones I've seen have been cut by the edges of those. That is bad engineering in anyone's book.
Huh?? Been there done that:

https://photos.app.goo.gl/TypuKvYARvRvvmSg8

Lou, I can't even peel the hood back far enough to SEE the complete bolt as your photo shows. Also you can see that you are inserting the Torx at an angle which is not recommended. There is a channel so that you can insert the Torx from the top side under the hood. This allows the Torx driver to be inserted at a very flat angle.



On this we agree.
As does the drawing in the Campagnolo user manual.

color photo:
https://images.immediate.co.uk/produ...size=620%2C412

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 11:00 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 8:06:50 AM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/21/2021 9:25 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, May 20, 2021 at 5:23:25 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 5/20/2021 7:11 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
I assume that Andrew would be someone that could answer this
question, I have a set of the 10 speed Centaur Ultra-shifters. They
don't have the same size bolt for locking the shifters onto the
handlebars. But the smaller size hex wrench doesn't seem to work.

Do these things use something really dumb like a Torx fitting and if
so that would require some special tool and where could that be obtained?

"Dumb" is sorta subjective, isn't it?

Peel back the rubber lever cover from the back side and
actually look at it. Because it's an aluminum fastener, it's
Torx, not hex. Good engineering/design practice.

I think you misunderstand my meaning. At that particular place a Torx
is a very bad decision. You have soft pliable rubber hoods and it is
not a particularly good idea to stick something down in there with
sharp edges. This is engineering 101. Don't destroy what you go to so
much trouble and expense to build.

I don't get your theory.

In practice, any tool slips easily under a rubber cover.
For a small aluminum sleeve fastener, Torx is a better drive
than Allen or PziDrive or Phillips.

The difference in weight from the previous 6 mm bolt and the new Torx 25
is negligible and saying that it is easy ignores the fact that so many
new hoods are being sold because the old ones were torn from the torx drivers.


If that's true we haven't seen it here.

For an aluminum sleeve fastener, Torx is the better design
over other drives. Mr Holtman, an engineer, mentioned this
fact earlier.


Now announcing the new Safe-T-Drive fastener system. Hemispherical drive
head mates perfectly with the matching recess in the bolt head, while
avoiding scratching nearby surfaces.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

You do have to be careful using a cordless driver to install
screws, but my driver has five or six torque settings, and
the lowest is very low, so I've had no problems with stripping
six-bolt disc rotor screws, which, IME, are always Torx head.
I get them snug with the driver and then finish them with a
torque wrench.

Which maker and model driver do you use? I sometimes use a DeWalt
DCF787 driver and DCD777 drill/driver for chainsaw work. However,
like the bicycle, I don't use either to install screws. The DCD777
drill/driver has an adjustable clutch but the DCF787 driver does NOT
have a clutch. I also have a DCD710 drill, which I use for
disassembling computers and few other DeWalt power tools.

Some details on torque including torque specs for various DeWalt
models:
https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-cordless-drills-uwo-torque/
My DCD777 will produce 65Nm or 575in-lbs at 500 rpm maximum. No
numbers for minimum torque. Apparently, the 15 position clutch is not
calibrated.

The problem I had with using power tools to install screws came from
using them for building computer cases and reassembling chainsaws. The
tiny M3 and less tiny 6-32 screws simply don't have enough threads to
prevent stripping, especially in thin stamped sheet metal with the
usual loose tolerances. The chance of wrecking the computer case was
just too much to risk using power. After a few minor disasters
assembling computers, chain saws, and bicycles, I decided to use power
tools only for disassembly. It might be safe at the lowest clutch
settings, but I don't believe that the risk of failure is worth the
convenience. Better safe than sorry.

I use a corded screw gun to mount plywood panels in my utility
trailer using self-tapping Torx head screws, but they use a large
bit and are more resistant to stripping.
https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/...=1000&wid=1000

Nice, but a little big for a bicycle. I've stripped a few bits,
usually from driving at an angle. I've tried hardening some bits,
which helps.
"Experiment CRASH TEST hardening bit for screwdriver"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7RSfVqbjSo (3:00)

Misc: T25 is for decking screws and T27 for most chainsaws.

--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:17:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

You do have to be careful using a cordless driver to install
screws, but my driver has five or six torque settings, and
the lowest is very low, so I've had no problems with stripping
six-bolt disc rotor screws, which, IME, are always Torx head.
I get them snug with the driver and then finish them with a
torque wrench.
Which maker and model driver do you use? I sometimes use a DeWalt
DCF787 driver and DCD777 drill/driver for chainsaw work. However,
like the bicycle, I don't use either to install screws. The DCD777
drill/driver has an adjustable clutch but the DCF787 driver does NOT
have a clutch. I also have a DCD710 drill, which I use for
disassembling computers and few other DeWalt power tools.

Some details on torque including torque specs for various DeWalt
models:
https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-cordless-drills-uwo-torque/
My DCD777 will produce 65Nm or 575in-lbs at 500 rpm maximum. No
numbers for minimum torque. Apparently, the 15 position clutch is not
calibrated.

My ancient Makita died, and I got an el cheapo Black and Decker replacement at Home Depo. https://tinyurl.com/25as2rk It has 11 clutch settings. It's a surprisingly god drill for the price. I also have some macho corded drills including a Milwaukee hammer drill. I'm just throwing that out there to establish my tool bonafides.

I only use a drill on two bicycle fittings -- spoke nipples and six-bolt rotor bolts. I also use it for the bolts on my gas pole hedge trimmer (Husky) since there are so many M5 bolts, and removing them with a wrench takes forever. I've driven lots of other types of screws -- including the self-tapping Torx heads I linked, deck screws, drywall, cement board, etc., etc. It is easy to strip all of those with the corded screw gun, and you have to be light on the trigger.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Fri, 21 May 2021 19:17:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2021 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

You do have to be careful using a cordless driver to install
screws, but my driver has five or six torque settings, and
the lowest is very low, so I've had no problems with stripping
six-bolt disc rotor screws, which, IME, are always Torx head.
I get them snug with the driver and then finish them with a
torque wrench.

Which maker and model driver do you use? I sometimes use a DeWalt
DCF787 driver and DCD777 drill/driver for chainsaw work. However,
like the bicycle, I don't use either to install screws. The DCD777
drill/driver has an adjustable clutch but the DCF787 driver does NOT
have a clutch. I also have a DCD710 drill, which I use for
disassembling computers and few other DeWalt power tools.

Some details on torque including torque specs for various DeWalt
models:
https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-cordless-drills-uwo-torque/
My DCD777 will produce 65Nm or 575in-lbs at 500 rpm maximum. No
numbers for minimum torque. Apparently, the 15 position clutch is not
calibrated.

The problem I had with using power tools to install screws came from
using them for building computer cases and reassembling chainsaws. The
tiny M3 and less tiny 6-32 screws simply don't have enough threads to
prevent stripping, especially in thin stamped sheet metal with the
usual loose tolerances. The chance of wrecking the computer case was
just too much to risk using power. After a few minor disasters
assembling computers, chain saws, and bicycles, I decided to use power
tools only for disassembly. It might be safe at the lowest clutch
settings, but I don't believe that the risk of failure is worth the
convenience. Better safe than sorry.

I use a corded screw gun to mount plywood panels in my utility
trailer using self-tapping Torx head screws, but they use a large
bit and are more resistant to stripping.
https://static.grainger.com/rp/s/is/...=1000&wid=1000

Nice, but a little big for a bicycle. I've stripped a few bits,
usually from driving at an angle. I've tried hardening some bits,
which helps.
"Experiment CRASH TEST hardening bit for screwdriver"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7RSfVqbjSo (3:00)


Quite simply that guy doesn't know what he is doing, at least as shown
in the film. The quenching in carbon is probably a rather futile
attempt at case hardening and had he submerged the bit in carbon dust
and then heated the whole mess to a red heat and held it there for a
period and then quenched the bit he would have had far more success.
As for his quenching in liquids he doesn't seem to get the bit
anywhere near hardening temperature, i.e. red heat.

Misc: T25 is for decking screws and T27 for most chainsaws.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sat, 22 May 2021 10:56:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2021 19:17:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Nice, but a little big for a bicycle. I've stripped a few bits,
usually from driving at an angle. I've tried hardening some bits,
which helps.
"Experiment CRASH TEST hardening bit for screwdriver"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7RSfVqbjSo (3:00)

Quite simply that guy doesn't know what he is doing, at least as shown
in the film. The quenching in carbon is probably a rather futile
attempt at case hardening and had he submerged the bit in carbon dust
and then heated the whole mess to a red heat and held it there for a
period and then quenched the bit he would have had far more success.
As for his quenching in liquids he doesn't seem to get the bit
anywhere near hardening temperature, i.e. red heat.

He doesn't get it quite right, but I like the method and the result.
However, as you note, he made many mistakes.

Quenching in clean oil doesn't work. Quenching in used motor oil does
work because it contains free carbon which will dissolve into the
steel bit. However, controlling the amount of carbon absorbed is
difficult. One could easily end up with too much carbon and produce
brittle cast iron. There's also a tendency for the surface to
oxidize. That can all be fixed by switching to vacuum hardening, but
that might be overkill for hardening a bit.

Quenching in carbon dust doesn't work because there is no oil or water
to conduct the heat to the loose carbon and to prevent oxidation. In
his setup, the carbon acts like a thermal insulator with about 1/10th
the thermal conductivity of steel.

Quenching in water results in a hard but brittle bit. However, he
didn't bother annealing the hardened bit, which would probably have
resulted in a much better tip.

Hardening by slow air cooling is a good compromise between the
original untreated bit, and the various attempts to harden the tip.
However, air cooling only works with steel compositions that are made
for air hardening such as those with high chromium content:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel#Air-hardening:_the_A_series

The problem here is that I don't know what flavor of mystery metal was
used to make the original bit. The bit does NOT have a high chromium
content because all the bits were magnetic.

I've only hardened about 10 Phillips #2 bits. Everything was an
experiment and no two were hardened in the same manner. I did
reproduce the cracking of the water quenched bit, but later produced
something quite hard by re-heating and annealing the water quenched
bit in dirty motor oil. Quenching in dirty motor oil without
annealing resulted in something only slightly better than the water
hardening and air annealing method.



--
Jeff Liebermann
PO Box 272 http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Ben Lomond CA 95005-0272
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

On Fri, 21 May 2021 23:06:02 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

On Sat, 22 May 2021 10:56:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2021 19:17:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Nice, but a little big for a bicycle. I've stripped a few bits,
usually from driving at an angle. I've tried hardening some bits,
which helps.
"Experiment CRASH TEST hardening bit for screwdriver"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7RSfVqbjSo (3:00)

Quite simply that guy doesn't know what he is doing, at least as shown
in the film. The quenching in carbon is probably a rather futile
attempt at case hardening and had he submerged the bit in carbon dust
and then heated the whole mess to a red heat and held it there for a
period and then quenched the bit he would have had far more success.
As for his quenching in liquids he doesn't seem to get the bit
anywhere near hardening temperature, i.e. red heat.

He doesn't get it quite right, but I like the method and the result.
However, as you note, he made many mistakes.

Quenching in clean oil doesn't work. Quenching in used motor oil does
work because it contains free carbon which will dissolve into the
steel bit. However, controlling the amount of carbon absorbed is
difficult. One could easily end up with too much carbon and produce
brittle cast iron. There's also a tendency for the surface to
oxidize. That can all be fixed by switching to vacuum hardening, but
that might be overkill for hardening a bit.

Quenching in carbon dust doesn't work because there is no oil or water
to conduct the heat to the loose carbon and to prevent oxidation. In
his setup, the carbon acts like a thermal insulator with about 1/10th
the thermal conductivity of steel.

Quenching in water results in a hard but brittle bit. However, he
didn't bother annealing the hardened bit, which would probably have
resulted in a much better tip.

Hardening by slow air cooling is a good compromise between the
original untreated bit, and the various attempts to harden the tip.
However, air cooling only works with steel compositions that are made
for air hardening such as those with high chromium content:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel#Air-hardening:_the_A_series

The problem here is that I don't know what flavor of mystery metal was
used to make the original bit. The bit does NOT have a high chromium
content because all the bits were magnetic.

I've only hardened about 10 Phillips #2 bits. Everything was an
experiment and no two were hardened in the same manner. I did
reproduce the cracking of the water quenched bit, but later produced
something quite hard by re-heating and annealing the water quenched
bit in dirty motor oil. Quenching in dirty motor oil without
annealing resulted in something only slightly better than the water
hardening and air annealing method.

The problem with the video is that you don't know what he is starting
with. Normal practice when hardening a steel object is to fully harden
it, i.e., heat to a red temperature and quench, normally in water or
even salt water. this results in the maximum hardness, and
brittleness, for that alloy. Then reheat (temper) to a lower
temperature which reduces the hardness by (hopefully) an amount that
leaves one (again hopefully) with a device of sufficient hardness to
do whatever work is required but not as brittle as the fully hardened
condition and then a final quench to stop all further changes.

I might add that the higher the carbon content the harder the first
quench will leave the work and with the greatest internal stresses. I
have quenched a number of high carbon "drill rod" tools in water and
had several of them crack after quenching while laying on the bench
while waiting for the temperature of the oven to come down to a
"tempering" temperature.

The "secret" is in the speed of hardening and water provides the
fastest cooling and oils are somewhat slower cooling with light grades
of oil being faster then heavier grades.

If you heat iron or steel in the presence of carbon the material will
absorb some of the carbon and you will "case harden", the item forming
a thin skin of high carbon over a low carbon core. If you then heat
the material and quench it you will end up with a thin skin of hard
and thus more brittle steel over a softer and less brittle core.

A blacksmith will temper by colors. First heat the item and fully
harden it and then, after polishing or otherwise removing any surface
oxidation, then reheat to a specific color and quench again for the
harness you require. Light colors, yellow or very light brown result
in a harder material then darker colors, light blue, dark blue, etc.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/22/2021 1:06 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2021 10:56:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2021 19:17:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Nice, but a little big for a bicycle. I've stripped a few bits,
usually from driving at an angle. I've tried hardening some bits,
which helps.
"Experiment CRASH TEST hardening bit for screwdriver"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7RSfVqbjSo (3:00)

Quite simply that guy doesn't know what he is doing, at least as shown
in the film. The quenching in carbon is probably a rather futile
attempt at case hardening and had he submerged the bit in carbon dust
and then heated the whole mess to a red heat and held it there for a
period and then quenched the bit he would have had far more success.
As for his quenching in liquids he doesn't seem to get the bit
anywhere near hardening temperature, i.e. red heat.

He doesn't get it quite right, but I like the method and the result.
However, as you note, he made many mistakes.

Quenching in clean oil doesn't work. Quenching in used motor oil does
work because it contains free carbon which will dissolve into the
steel bit. However, controlling the amount of carbon absorbed is
difficult. One could easily end up with too much carbon and produce
brittle cast iron. There's also a tendency for the surface to
oxidize. That can all be fixed by switching to vacuum hardening, but
that might be overkill for hardening a bit.

Quenching in carbon dust doesn't work because there is no oil or water
to conduct the heat to the loose carbon and to prevent oxidation. In
his setup, the carbon acts like a thermal insulator with about 1/10th
the thermal conductivity of steel.

Quenching in water results in a hard but brittle bit. However, he
didn't bother annealing the hardened bit, which would probably have
resulted in a much better tip.

Hardening by slow air cooling is a good compromise between the
original untreated bit, and the various attempts to harden the tip.
However, air cooling only works with steel compositions that are made
for air hardening such as those with high chromium content:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel#Air-hardening:_the_A_series

The problem here is that I don't know what flavor of mystery metal was
used to make the original bit. The bit does NOT have a high chromium
content because all the bits were magnetic.

I've only hardened about 10 Phillips #2 bits. Everything was an
experiment and no two were hardened in the same manner. I did
reproduce the cracking of the water quenched bit, but later produced
something quite hard by re-heating and annealing the water quenched
bit in dirty motor oil. Quenching in dirty motor oil without
annealing resulted in something only slightly better than the water
hardening and air annealing method.




Small edged 1020 pieces can be case hardened with acetylene
soot which was once a standard lesson in machine shop
classes. I don't think this has any practical application
for a Phillips bit since new ones are dirt cheap.

Comments here note that bicycle sprockets are very cheap
compared t making a sprocket:

https://hackaday.com/2019/11/29/maki...-the-tidy-way/

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 8:00:45 PM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, May 21, 2021 at 7:17:13 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Fri, 21 May 2021 08:47:14 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

You do have to be careful using a cordless driver to install
screws, but my driver has five or six torque settings, and
the lowest is very low, so I've had no problems with stripping
six-bolt disc rotor screws, which, IME, are always Torx head.
I get them snug with the driver and then finish them with a
torque wrench.
Which maker and model driver do you use? I sometimes use a DeWalt
DCF787 driver and DCD777 drill/driver for chainsaw work. However,
like the bicycle, I don't use either to install screws. The DCD777
drill/driver has an adjustable clutch but the DCF787 driver does NOT
have a clutch. I also have a DCD710 drill, which I use for
disassembling computers and few other DeWalt power tools.

Some details on torque including torque specs for various DeWalt
models:
https://toolguyd.com/dewalt-cordless-drills-uwo-torque/
My DCD777 will produce 65Nm or 575in-lbs at 500 rpm maximum. No
numbers for minimum torque. Apparently, the 15 position clutch is not
calibrated.
My ancient Makita died, and I got an el cheapo Black and Decker replacement at Home Depo. https://tinyurl.com/25as2rk It has 11 clutch settings. It's a surprisingly god drill for the price. I also have some macho corded drills including a Milwaukee hammer drill. I'm just throwing that out there to establish my tool bonafides.

I only use a drill on two bicycle fittings -- spoke nipples and six-bolt rotor bolts. I also use it for the bolts on my gas pole hedge trimmer (Husky) since there are so many M5 bolts, and removing them with a wrench takes forever. I've driven lots of other types of screws -- including the self-tapping Torx heads I linked, deck screws, drywall, cement board, etc., etc. It is easy to strip all of those with the corded screw gun, and you have to be light on the trigger.

We had Frank gaffawing that torque wrenches were around forever. What he doesn't seem to know was that they were NOT used to limit how tight you make a bolt as much as to make sure things were evenly tightened. This prevented things like head gaskets leaking and the like. It wasn't until softer materials like Aluminum came into use that rather to make sure things were all tightened equally they were used to prevent overtightening and stripping softer materials.

On 5/22/2021 2:06 AM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Sat, 22 May 2021 10:56:25 +0700, John B.
wrote:

On Fri, 21 May 2021 19:17:06 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote:

Nice, but a little big for a bicycle. I've stripped a few bits,
usually from driving at an angle. I've tried hardening some bits,
which helps.
"Experiment CRASH TEST hardening bit for screwdriver"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y7RSfVqbjSo (3:00)

Quite simply that guy doesn't know what he is doing, at least as shown
in the film. The quenching in carbon is probably a rather futile
attempt at case hardening and had he submerged the bit in carbon dust
and then heated the whole mess to a red heat and held it there for a
period and then quenched the bit he would have had far more success.
As for his quenching in liquids he doesn't seem to get the bit
anywhere near hardening temperature, i.e. red heat.

+1

He doesn't get it quite right, but I like the method and the result.
However, as you note, he made many mistakes.

Quenching in clean oil doesn't work. Quenching in used motor oil does
work because it contains free carbon which will dissolve into the
steel bit.

No, sorry. There's no migration of carbon into the hot steel during an
oil quench, dirty or no.

A lot of backyard mechanics don't understand oil quenching. They think
it's always magically superior to water quenching. But the purpose of an
oil quench is to give a slower quench than water. (Brine gives a faster
quench.) In a properly controlled industrial process, the choice of
quench rate is determined by the type of steel alloy. Some alloys have
the ability to fully harden with a slower quench. Those use oil quenching.

The big benefit is that a slower quench is less likely to warp or crack
the part. This can be important for parts with complex geometry, varying
wall thicknesses etc.

However, controlling the amount of carbon absorbed is
difficult. One could easily end up with too much carbon and produce
brittle cast iron.

The diffusion of carbon into steel is called carburizing, and it's a
solid solution phenomenon. Solid carbon atoms _slowly_ make their way in
among the solid iron (or steel) atoms. It's a lot different from water
soaking into a sponge. It takes a long time.

Hardening by slow air cooling is a good compromise between the
original untreated bit, and the various attempts to harden the tip.
However, air cooling only works with steel compositions that are made
for air hardening such as those with high chromium content:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tool_steel#Air-hardening:_the_A_series

Yes. Air quenching is much slower than oil quenching, given similar
cross sections. It usually requires even fancier steel alloys.

BTW, I remember visiting a wire drawing factory producing steel wire for
radial tire belts. Occasionally the drawing process would cause a wire
to break. They had a rig that electrically butt-welded the broken ends
of the wire. But the thin wire air quenched to brittle martensite, so
the rig re-warmed it to temper it or anneal it. It was like this
demonstration of welding a band saw blade, but completely automatic:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xuFpZTUjtmg


--
- Frank Krygowski