Is an electric bike cheating?

On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:00:46 -0700 (PDT), DennisTheBald
wrote:

On Oct 27, 8:01*am, dgk wrote:
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/Tailwind.aspx

Looks like a decent commuter bike. Of course, it's at least $2000 and
is about the weakest motor I've seen, but I'm not looking for a moped.
Or maybe the WorldGSE model which seems like a real bike, but oddly
only comes in 17" or 21" sizes:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/WorldGSE.aspx

Decent components I think; it would be a good bike if non-electric.

Well, is this cheating? Will I end up being just a mobile couch
potato?

I rode one of those around the LBS parking lot a bit about a year ago.
It was a weird feeling when the motor pushed, it would take some
getting used to. I think I would prefer a straight up throttle
control rather than the way these Schwins work, sensing when the
pedals were turning and all that.

I think it's more an issue of where the motor is. Many bikes have the
motor drive the chain, or at least the rear wheel. These have the
motor on the front wheel. Kind of like switching from a rear wheel
drive car to front wheel drive, or at least 4 wheel drive. I guess
that's 2 wheel drive in bike terms.

I would think it is a bit of a learning curve to get used to the front
wheel supplying power.

I read somewhere (one of the kit sellers) that you need steel forks,
not aluminum, if you're planning on adding a front rim motor. The last
thing you want is for the fork to break. But those were more powerful
than the Schwinns; I'm sure they design them so the forks don't break.

dgk wrote:
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

snip

Presently, the best electric bicycles are from this company
"http://pacificebike.com/index.html". I was talking to the founder at
Interbike, where it seems that there were 100 companies promoting $2000+
electric bicycles, which will of course never sell. He told me "I charge
less retail that they are trying to wholesale them for." He set up a
factory in Suzhou China to manufacture his bikes.

Just remember than Li-Ion batteries don't last forever. After 3-4 years
you'll have to replace the battery at significant cost.

dgk wrote:
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/Tailwind.aspx


Looks like a decent commuter bike. Of course, it's at least $2000 and
is about the weakest motor I've seen, but I'm not looking for a moped.
Or maybe the WorldGSE model which seems like a real bike, but oddly
only comes in 17" or 21" sizes:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/WorldGSE.aspx


Decent components I think; it would be a good bike if non-electric.

Having the heavy battery so high with all the weight over the rear
wheel, is a poor design. Look for eBikes where the frame is custom
designed and the battery goes between the rear wheel and the seat tube.

On Oct 28, 7:45*am, dgk wrote:
On Tue, 27 Oct 2009 11:00:46 -0700 (PDT), DennisTheBald



wrote:
On Oct 27, 8:01*am, dgk wrote:
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/Tailwind.aspx

Looks like a decent commuter bike. Of course, it's at least $2000 and
is about the weakest motor I've seen, but I'm not looking for a moped.
Or maybe the WorldGSE model which seems like a real bike, but oddly
only comes in 17" or 21" sizes:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/WorldGSE.aspx

Decent components I think; it would be a good bike if non-electric.

Well, is this cheating? Will I end up being just a mobile couch
potato?

I rode one of those around the LBS parking lot a bit about a year ago.
It was a weird feeling when the motor pushed, it would take some
getting used to. *I think I would prefer a straight up throttle
control rather than the way these Schwins work, sensing when the
pedals were turning and all that.

I think it's more an issue of where the motor is. Many bikes have the
motor drive the chain, or at least the rear wheel. These have the
motor on the front wheel. Kind of like switching from a rear wheel
drive car to front wheel drive, or at least 4 wheel drive. I guess
that's 2 wheel drive in bike terms.

I would think it is a bit of a learning curve to get used to the front
wheel supplying power.

I read somewhere (one of the kit sellers) that you need steel forks,
not aluminum, if you're planning on adding a front rim motor. The last
thing you want is for the fork to break. But those were more powerful
than the Schwinns; I'm sure they design them so the forks don't break.

There are kits that put a hub motor inside a rear wheel and still
allow for a freewheel... I've only got a couple old clunkers with
freewheels, most of my bikes have freehubs now. And the Schwinn still
looks like a bike instead of some thing I might make in my garage.

I can't understand people's issue with the shimano 8 speed internal
hub. My everyday bike has a triple up front but I generally don't
ever shift it on my way back and forth to work... but the tallest
thing I climb is an overpass.

The Campus model looks like my pick but it's now only available in
Europe.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:24:03 -0700, SMS
wrote:

dgk wrote:
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/Tailwind.aspx


Looks like a decent commuter bike. Of course, it's at least $2000 and
is about the weakest motor I've seen, but I'm not looking for a moped.
Or maybe the WorldGSE model which seems like a real bike, but oddly
only comes in 17" or 21" sizes:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/WorldGSE.aspx


Decent components I think; it would be a good bike if non-electric.

Having the heavy battery so high with all the weight over the rear
wheel, is a poor design. Look for eBikes where the frame is custom
designed and the battery goes between the rear wheel and the seat tube.

It depends on the battery. The newest LI ones are 10 lbs or so. My
pack often weighs that much. I wouldn't get anything with an SLA
battery. Those would need to go lower on the frame but they add so
much weight that the bike is useless without the motor running.

According to the Schwinn site, the whole weight of the system is 12
lbs. Whether that includes the battery is not clear. I'd guess not.
But the bike is useable without power. And I like the idea of the
Nexus rear hub, particularly for winter.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 07:31:39 -0700, SMS
wrote:

dgk wrote:
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

snip

Presently, the best electric bicycles are from this company
"http://pacificebike.com/index.html". I was talking to the founder at
Interbike, where it seems that there were 100 companies promoting $2000+
electric bicycles, which will of course never sell. He told me "I charge
less retail that they are trying to wholesale them for." He set up a
factory in Suzhou China to manufacture his bikes.

Just remember than Li-Ion batteries don't last forever. After 3-4 years
you'll have to replace the battery at significant cost.

But there are no stats at all about the bike components. And they seem
to be one size fits all. It is $1000+ cheaper than the Schwinn though.
But I like the Schwinns because they seem like good bikes. I can't
tell anything about this except that the electrical system is probably
most of the cost. This really would seem like a moped type of thing.

On Oct 28, 12:08*pm, dgk wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:24:03 -0700, SMS
wrote:



dgk wrote:
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/Tailwind.aspx

Looks like a decent commuter bike. Of course, it's at least $2000 and
is about the weakest motor I've seen, but I'm not looking for a moped.
Or maybe the WorldGSE model which seems like a real bike, but oddly
only comes in 17" or 21" sizes:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/WorldGSE.aspx

Decent components I think; it would be a good bike if non-electric.

Having the heavy battery so high with all the weight over the rear
wheel, is a poor design. Look for eBikes where the frame is custom
designed and the battery goes between the rear wheel and the seat tube.

It depends on the battery. The newest LI ones are 10 lbs or so. My
pack often weighs that much. I wouldn't get anything with an SLA
battery. Those would need to go lower on the frame but they add so
much weight that the bike is useless without the motor running.

According to the Schwinn site, the whole weight of the system is 12
lbs. Whether that includes the battery is not clear. I'd guess not.
But the bike is useable without power. And I like the idea of the
Nexus rear hub, particularly for winter.

I've got a 7ah SLA (12v) on my non motorized bike this time of year.
Granted it ain't got near enough beef to run even the 180W motor on
these Schwinns. But It doesn't present a significant impairment to
transportational riding (it weighs less than my clothes & lunch
bucket). I mount it low on my 'bent (chain stays) - but higher (seat
stay near brake bosses) back in my wedgie days. SLA isn't all sexy
like them new li-ons, but it ain't expensive like 'em either. SLA,
like a steel frame, is the real deal - best bang for your buck over
the entire life of the product. If the li-ion batteries are good for
5000 cycles (as they claim), and you charged it at the office too, it
ought to last about 10 years. I'm kinda skeptical of the claim.
They've been putting this type of battery in laptops for a couple
years now so there is probably empirical data from those
implementations.

One thing for sure, these Schwinns are hands down the best looking
electric bikes available. I was kinda curious about the shaft, but
the LBS didn't have one of those for me to touch. I really like the
idea of a completely closed up chain path. Some of the european only
models had a much nicer saddle on 'em. And it would have to be some
saddle to get me back on a wedgie. If they keep tweaking the product
line I might be ready for just that next year.

On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 11:22:46 -0700 (PDT), DennisTheBald
wrote:

On Oct 28, 12:08*pm, dgk wrote:
On Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:24:03 -0700, SMS
wrote:



dgk wrote:
I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/Tailwind.aspx

Looks like a decent commuter bike. Of course, it's at least $2000 and
is about the weakest motor I've seen, but I'm not looking for a moped.
Or maybe the WorldGSE model which seems like a real bike, but oddly
only comes in 17" or 21" sizes:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/WorldGSE.aspx

Decent components I think; it would be a good bike if non-electric.

Having the heavy battery so high with all the weight over the rear
wheel, is a poor design. Look for eBikes where the frame is custom
designed and the battery goes between the rear wheel and the seat tube.

It depends on the battery. The newest LI ones are 10 lbs or so. My
pack often weighs that much. I wouldn't get anything with an SLA
battery. Those would need to go lower on the frame but they add so
much weight that the bike is useless without the motor running.

According to the Schwinn site, the whole weight of the system is 12
lbs. Whether that includes the battery is not clear. I'd guess not.
But the bike is useable without power. And I like the idea of the
Nexus rear hub, particularly for winter.

I've got a 7ah SLA (12v) on my non motorized bike this time of year.
Granted it ain't got near enough beef to run even the 180W motor on
these Schwinns. But It doesn't present a significant impairment to
transportational riding (it weighs less than my clothes & lunch
bucket). I mount it low on my 'bent (chain stays) - but higher (seat
stay near brake bosses) back in my wedgie days. SLA isn't all sexy
like them new li-ons, but it ain't expensive like 'em either. SLA,
like a steel frame, is the real deal - best bang for your buck over
the entire life of the product. If the li-ion batteries are good for
5000 cycles (as they claim), and you charged it at the office too, it
ought to last about 10 years. I'm kinda skeptical of the claim.
They've been putting this type of battery in laptops for a couple
years now so there is probably empirical data from those
implementations.

One thing for sure, these Schwinns are hands down the best looking
electric bikes available. I was kinda curious about the shaft, but
the LBS didn't have one of those for me to touch. I really like the
idea of a completely closed up chain path. Some of the european only
models had a much nicer saddle on 'em. And it would have to be some
saddle to get me back on a wedgie. If they keep tweaking the product
line I might be ready for just that next year.


I'm hoping the price goes down, but the batteries are really
expensive. But if they last even 3000 cycles, that is pretty good.

dgk wrote:

I hate hills. I hate headwinds. I'm in my late 50s. It takes me 80
minutes to commute in and the same going home. That's a lot of time
(15 miles at 10.7 mph or so). So, maybe I can shave 25 minutes off and
bike even more often if I get something like this:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/Tailwind.aspx

Looks like a decent commuter bike. Of course, it's at least $2000 and
is about the weakest motor I've seen, but I'm not looking for a moped.
Or maybe the WorldGSE model which seems like a real bike, but oddly
only comes in 17" or 21" sizes:

http://www.schwinnelectricbikes.com/Bikes/WorldGSE.aspx

Decent components I think; it would be a good bike if non-electric.

Well, is this cheating? Will I end up being just a mobile couch
potato?

"Cheating"? I observe this attitude regarding e-bikes a lot in
cyclists, even though they also have cars that they don't consider to
be "cheating" per se.

An e-bike is what it is-- neither a pedal-only bicycle nor a moped.
It takes quite a bit more upkeep than a normal pedal bike, and it's
heavier and less wieldy. Some folks use an e-bike as a kind of
incredibly feeble and slow moped, without pedaling at all. They are
still not cheating, unless it's cheating themselves out of a real
motor vehicle.

If you want to pick up your current pace substantially, you'll have to
add something like your current level of effort to whatever power the
e-bike can provide. Do not expect miracles, but do expect a more
satisfying result from your physical work.

Ebikes can be fun and highly economical. If using one means you spend
more days on the bike and fewer in a car, then that's a major benefit
to yourself and your community. Nobody is cheated.

Chalo

On 28 Oct, 12:41, dgk wrote:

No it's not cheating. *80 minutes at each end of a working day must
feel bad when you're not up to it. *I'm thinking that perhaps you
should be making a little better headway, perhaps 60 minutes for the
15 miles. *Just try riding to work once or twice a week and maybe your
speed will improve. *Try to find a non-exposed route when you are
otherwised faced with a headwind (or make this an off day). *Drop
handlebars will help against winds and supple tyres will improve your
speed for any day. *i always wonder, "but what if the motor fails",
I'd have to lug that as well.

I suppose I could put more effort into it, but I'm thinking less, not
more. Much of my ride is along the water (East River) and wind can be
pretty wicked there. The other option is riding with lots of traffic
and I prefer to avoid that. It just isn't pleasant.

I was thinking that there are ways to make your ride easier. By
making it easier, the amount of effort you expend will be reduced and
so will the time taken. The simplest way to make it easier is to ride
no more than once or twice a week. At twice a week, you can make
modifications in position or tyres and see the benefit. You may not
notice this if you are still tired from the previous day. If you take
it as easy as you can on each day you ride you may see the benefits
much sooner than riding harder. Give yourself plenty of time and
carry food and drink. You'll get there when you do, comfortably. As
the weather gets colder you will need to work harder to keep your body
temperature up. Because the seasons change progressively, it is a
good way to increase intensity without overdoing it. Just regulate
your body temperature by your effort expenditure.