value of a custom frame

"Mike Jacoubowsky" writes:

I think that the main reason to get a custom bicycle is that you can
get something of much higher quality and durability. Your desire
might be aesthetic, e.g. if you have an eye for artistry, or a sense
of mojo developed in your brain by marketing when you were very young.

A lot of people feel left out in the cold by the recent trend towards
fast-food / mcdonalds bicycle frames (e.g. eat them up, then pitch
them out, gotta get a new one every 5-10 years, we are under the spell
of the greedy marketeers from bicycle companies! ! !)

I'm not sure why you feel this is the case. Yes, you can get something new
every few years if you wish, but that's a choice, not a requirement. Road
bikes have the advantage of being relatively-durable goods, vs mountain
bikes, where it's obsolete when it first hits the trail because it doesn't
have the latest fork or rear suspension.

Mike, be careful where you aim your "soft sell beam." The frame I
bought from YOU PERSONALLY (yes, you wrote up the bill of sale) lasted
less than 2 years before it failed. Yes, I was replaced under
warranty, but quite frankly, I was charged $45 shipping for a very
different frame I didn't want, never selected, and told to go packing
by TREK.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

"Mike Jacoubowsky" writes:

I think that the main reason to get a custom bicycle is that you can
get something of much higher quality and durability. Your desire
might be aesthetic, e.g. if you have an eye for artistry, or a sense
of mojo developed in your brain by marketing when you were very young.

A lot of people feel left out in the cold by the recent trend towards
fast-food / mcdonalds bicycle frames (e.g. eat them up, then pitch
them out, gotta get a new one every 5-10 years, we are under the spell
of the greedy marketeers from bicycle companies! ! !)

I'm not sure why you feel this is the case. Yes, you can get something new
every few years if you wish, but that's a choice, not a requirement. Road
bikes have the advantage of being relatively-durable goods, vs mountain
bikes, where it's obsolete when it first hits the trail because it doesn't
have the latest fork or rear suspension.

Mike, be careful where you aim your "soft sell beam."

The TREK 2300 frame I bought from YOU PERSONALLY (yes, you wrote up
the bill of sale, i still have it) lasted less than 2 years and 5k
miles before it failed, stupidly. Yes, it was replaced under
warranty, but quite frankly, I was charged $45 shipping for a very
different frame I didn't want, never selected, and told to go packing
by TREK. If that's "getting a new frame based upon choice" then i'll
be damned.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Donald Gillies wrote:
"Mike Jacoubowsky" writes:

I think that the main reason to get a custom bicycle is that you can
get something of much higher quality and durability. Your desire
might be aesthetic, e.g. if you have an eye for artistry, or a sense
of mojo developed in your brain by marketing when you were very young.

A lot of people feel left out in the cold by the recent trend towards
fast-food / mcdonalds bicycle frames (e.g. eat them up, then pitch
them out, gotta get a new one every 5-10 years, we are under the spell
of the greedy marketeers from bicycle companies! ! !)

I'm not sure why you feel this is the case. Yes, you can get something new
every few years if you wish, but that's a choice, not a requirement. Road
bikes have the advantage of being relatively-durable goods, vs mountain
bikes, where it's obsolete when it first hits the trail because it doesn't
have the latest fork or rear suspension.

Mike, be careful where you aim your "soft sell beam."

The TREK 2300 frame I bought from YOU PERSONALLY (yes, you wrote up
the bill of sale, i still have it) lasted less than 2 years and 5k
miles before it failed, stupidly. Yes, it was replaced under
warranty, but quite frankly, I was charged $45 shipping for a very
different frame I didn't want, never selected, and told to go packing
by TREK. If that's "getting a new frame based upon choice" then i'll
be damned.


I'm curious, what frame did Trek supply as a replacement? And, FWIW,
charging you for shipping in what seems to be a clear case of a
defective product, seems out of bounds. (Let's be clear: I'm not
suggesting that the dealer should "eat" the shipping charge, but Trek
clearly should.)

Mike, be careful where you aim your "soft sell beam."

The TREK 2300 frame I bought from YOU PERSONALLY (yes, you wrote up
the bill of sale, i still have it) lasted less than 2 years and 5k
miles before it failed, stupidly. Yes, it was replaced under
warranty, but quite frankly, I was charged $45 shipping for a very
different frame I didn't want, never selected, and told to go packing
by TREK. If that's "getting a new frame based upon choice" then i'll
be damned.

- Don Gillies

No problem, I can take the heat! I cannot tell you why you were charged
shipping; we certainly wouldn't have done so unless we really screwed up.
Looking at your purchase history in our Redwood City store, looks like the
only transaction here took place in April of 2000. I don't have ready access
to the Los Altos store... well, actually, yes I do. Just logged on to see,
and don't find any more info there. My guess is that you moved to San Diego
and had it taken care of down there?

If anyone told you to "go packing" I sure wish you'd gotten in contact with
me (obviously, I'm opening up a big opportunity to look stupid here, in case
you did!). When a frame fails and it's deemed a warranty issue, the customer
*does* have choices, particularly with newer models. If a color is
unacceptable, a frame can be snagged from warranty stock and painted a
current color choice. If a frame of the same sort is no longer available,
there are options to be presented. In no instance is a frame automatically
dispatched without some contact with the shop. Beyond that, a credit can be
issued which can be applied to a new bike if desired.

Clearly (to me), things were handled neither in the normal way or
appropriately. Since I sold the bike, I still retain a sense of ownership in
it, and any problems it might have, regardless of where someone's moved. Was
this something I was involved in at all, or was it taken care of entirely
elsewhere?

This may seem like airing dirty laundry in public, but that's OK, I'm pretty
darned transparent.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Donald Gillies" wrote in message
...
"Mike Jacoubowsky" writes:

I think that the main reason to get a custom bicycle is that you can
get something of much higher quality and durability. Your desire
might be aesthetic, e.g. if you have an eye for artistry, or a sense
of mojo developed in your brain by marketing when you were very young.

A lot of people feel left out in the cold by the recent trend towards
fast-food / mcdonalds bicycle frames (e.g. eat them up, then pitch
them out, gotta get a new one every 5-10 years, we are under the spell
of the greedy marketeers from bicycle companies! ! !)

I'm not sure why you feel this is the case. Yes, you can get something new
every few years if you wish, but that's a choice, not a requirement. Road
bikes have the advantage of being relatively-durable goods, vs mountain
bikes, where it's obsolete when it first hits the trail because it doesn't
have the latest fork or rear suspension.

Mike, be careful where you aim your "soft sell beam."

The TREK 2300 frame I bought from YOU PERSONALLY (yes, you wrote up
the bill of sale, i still have it) lasted less than 2 years and 5k
miles before it failed, stupidly. Yes, it was replaced under
warranty, but quite frankly, I was charged $45 shipping for a very
different frame I didn't want, never selected, and told to go packing
by TREK. If that's "getting a new frame based upon choice" then i'll
be damned.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

" wrote:

I was perfectly happy with my bike when I got it in June.

I sold it half price three months later and was perfectly happy with my
bike when I got it in September.

Then I changed the stem.

Then I changed the handlebars.

Then I changed the handlebars back.

Then I changed the pedals.

Now I'm thinking about lowering the handlebars, and maybe raising the
seat a little.

But I'm perfectly happy with my bike exactly the way it is.

-M



Heh. You sly dog, Marian.

--
Ted Bennett

"Mike Jacoubowsky" writes:

Mike, be careful where you aim your "soft sell beam."

The TREK 2300 frame I bought from YOU PERSONALLY (yes, you wrote up
the bill of sale, i still have it) lasted less than 2 years and 5k
miles before it failed, stupidly. Yes, it was replaced under
warranty, but quite frankly, I was charged $45 shipping for a very
different frame I didn't want, never selected, and told to go packing
by TREK. If that's "getting a new frame based upon choice" then i'll
be damned.

- Don Gillies

No problem, I can take the heat! I cannot tell you why you were charged
shipping; we certainly wouldn't have done so unless we really screwed up.
Looking at your purchase history in our Redwood City store, looks like the
only transaction here took place in April of 2000. I don't have ready access
to the Los Altos store... well, actually, yes I do. Just logged on to see,
and don't find any more info there. My guess is that you moved to San Diego
and had it taken care of down there?

I should apologize because my message was not clear. I was not told
to "go packing" by Chain Reaction bicycles. I have the highest
respect for that shop and for Mike Jacoubowsky in particular. I was
treated this way by my local TREK dealer (UC Cyclery) here in San
Diego. Chain Reaction is a very high-quality operation.

I was trying to express how it feels to have a high-tech frame go
south on you for no apparent reason. Honestly, it feels like a crook
came and stole the frame from you. Yes, you can get another one from
the dealer, and if you're super lucky you might be able to get the
right color or even one that looks similar. In my case, TREK had gone
through 3 generations of frames and the replacement frame that I got
was arguably "even higher tech" ( Red Scandium with carbon rear stays
) than what I lost ( 3 tubes Gold carbon with cast aluminum rear
triangle ).

However, I take a long time ( 1 month ) to purchase expensive items
and I don't think that I would have selected the scandium / carbon
stayed bike based upon ride quality or the integrated headset. So, in
general, it left a bad taste in my mouth to lose my old friend, the
1992-1998 2300 3-tubes carbon bike.

I honestly would have preferred a used frame - or any ugly welded seat
cluster - as a warranty replacement / remedy.

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Zix wrote:
Hi folks,

There's a local bike frame maker, a small shop,
where they make custom frames for people
based on body dimensions. I once was told by
an obsessive rider that doing this really does help.

I don't think my body is especially oddly dimensioned
per se, but I do somewhat feel that if I'm going to
invest in a good bike, costing over US$1000,
I might as well pay something extra for the custom job
in part because I'm done growing (long ago) and
whatever I buy will most likely fit me like a glove for life.
Plus, if there is someone who can do it well,
it might be nice to support a craftsman.

My question for you all is, what do you feel
(or know) would be an appropriate surcharge
for such a thing. I ask this especially because
for years I've been trying to find the time to take
a welding course ($300 perhaps), so if the answer
were a very large number I would just do that
and start planning to make my own frame.

Thanks.

I was lucky enough in the USN to go to Hong Kong more than once. I am a
pretty standard 42L suit kinda guy, I can buy a suit, when I needed to
wear those things, pretty easy at Men's Warehouse but it sure was nice
to go to Mr Manning on the Kowloon side and have him make me suits,
sport jackets and shirts, custom made. Same for a bicycle frame. Sure
there are lots of standard frames out there that will fit and work and
be fine and dandy but having one made for you by a reputable buiolder
sure is nice.

David wrote:

snipped

I can only think of 2 main reasons why people go for custom..

1, Asthetics (the art, the lugs, the paint job and ofcourse your name
painted on or laser engraved stamped and clear coated on the top tube
or chain stays!)

2, Proportionate geometry. This is especially useful for small and
short women or men.


Perhaps there are other reasons, as well. If you look at the production
bicycle market today, what do you get for spending more than, say $2000
(Yes, this is arbitrary. Feel free to pick another figure, higher or
lower)? Probably just some minimal weight savings (6 seconds per pound
up a long, steep hill!), the appearence of "higher tech", and, maybe,
components with more "prestige" that really do not function any better
than the next group down the line.

Now, what does that CFRP wonder become in, say, 5-10 years? "Obsolete"
,"Yesterday's news", etc.

OTOH, with a custom frame, you have a bike made *for* you, with input
*from* you, painted in the color of *your* choice, free from garish,
over-size logos plastered all over the frame, and built with the exact
parts of your choice.

And, 5-10 years from now, it will still be a hand-crafted bicycle, made
by a craftsman, and not popped out of a mold somewhere.

IMHO, YMMV, etc.,etc., etc.

OTOH, with a custom frame, you have a bike made *for* you, with input
*from* you, painted in the color of *your* choice, free from garish,
over-size logos plastered all over the frame, and built with the exact
parts of your choice.


That's a rather bold statement. In reality, I had been in the industry
for so long and had seen some people who bought into the custom bike
myth usually ending up hating their bikes. This was true with either
inexperienced and experienced riders.

The people who buy into the custom bike myth is usually the same people
who strive for perfection. They don't want to make a single mistake in
bike fit and that's understable. $2000 + for a custom bike -- you
better like it. It's not a mistake most of us can afford to make. But
I think, bike fit is being oversold by a lot of the custom bike makers.
In reality, many stock frame makers are now making sizes available for
people who usually don't fit the normal mold of things. Custom paint
is also being oversold by a lot of makers too. Yes, nice paint job
certainly look nice. I remember that in the 80s, colored suits and
clothes were the fad at the time. Remember what Don Johnson of Miami
Vice wore at the time? Cool then, but pretty cheesy now. What is hit
then is not necessarily cool today. If you try wearing 80s wear today,
you'll probably be greeted by a lot of strange looks.
Yes, cool paint jobs are great to look at, but color is like fashion.
What's popular today is old fashion by tommorrow.

So what if they buy into this myth that they believe, the $2000 + bike
will last them for a lifetime. Most of the time, I see them
hibernating in their garage after 5 or so years. The problem is, most
custom bikes are made by traditional means and materials. There is
nothing wrong with that, except there are mass production bike
companies like Guru for instance which also use traditional means to
build modern bikes that are lighter, cooler to look at and sometimes
provide a nicer ride. I had seen way too many people who left their
custom bikes in pursuit of those nicer Optimo or Carbone framed bikes
with fancy boutique paired spokes wheels. You know, peer pressure in
mass riders can sometimes get the best of some of us, plus their riding
style and posture may have changed too.

To me, the key to buying a custom frame is that, it must fit "BETTER"
than any available STOCK frame sold in the market today. If it does
provide the same fit as a stock frame, then why go custom?

David.

David wrote:

To me, the key to buying a custom frame is that, it must fit "BETTER"
than any available STOCK frame sold in the market today. If it does
provide the same fit as a stock frame, then why go custom?

This is something I deal with on a regular basis... many potential
customers
approach me for a "custom" frame. I'd guess that I try to talk at
least half
of them OUT of going custom, simply because it becomes evident that
they
would gain nothing by going custom, since they would fit on a stock
frame
with a "normal" stem and seat post.

Others want to go the custom route to incorporate other changes - like
a
sloping top tube or longer chainstays or fender/rack mount bosses, etc.
For others, it's not a fit issue, but one of matching the bike to the
type of
riding they'll be doing by altering the geometry - perhaps steepening
the
head tube angle or lowering the bottom bracket height.

Others are just detail-oriented enough to want odd things like S-shaped
seatstays and straight chainstays (or vice versa).

But most are just looking for the right fit, and for most of us
relatively
normal* people that doesn't require a custom frame.

* fit-wise - there are very few "normal people" around here....

Mark Hickey
Habanero Cycles
http://www.habcycles.com
Home of the $795 ti frame