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#561
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Steel frames and le Tour
Tom Sherman wrote:
What is going on here has nothing to do with weight of bicycles. That should be obvious to RBT regulars, but likely not to RBR regulars who do not follow RBT. I was wondering how global warming affects climbing speed. |
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#562
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Jul 19, 10:15*pm, wrote:
On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:56:40 -0700, Howard Kveck wrote: In article , wrote: On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:04:33 -0700, Howard Kveck wrote: In article , On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:30:32 -0700, Howard Kveck wrote: In article , wrote: The rest of the "heavier" feeling was probably due to all the extra attention that I paid (does it feel heavier? lighter? how does it normally feel?), plus the unavoidable knowledge that there were _seven_ whole pounds sitting right there in plain sight whenever I looked down at the speedometer. * One point I haven't seen made, Carl: this isn't exactly a blind test, is it? If you really wanted to seriously test this, I think you'd have to devise a way to do it so you were unaware of when the bike had the extra weight on it when you went out on the road. Dear Howard, Here's the relevant post: * No, Carl, you state in your above post "the unavoidable knowledge that there were _seven_ whole pounds sitting right there in plain sight." That pretty much defines it as *not* a blind test. Dear Howard, Er, where did I argue with you? The relevant post that I quoted in full makes it plain as sin that it wasn't a blind test. * The point was that doing a blind test is the proper scientific way. Doing it so you know the condition of the bike ("I can see the extra weight") makes the results of minimal value. For fun, tell us how you would "seriously test" for the speed and acceleration effects of a 7-lb bicycle weight increase and what blinding procedures you'd use. * I'd think it would be obvious that you need to have a bike with a package on it that is enclosed. You have someone other than yourself either fill the package with seven pounds or not fill it. Then you ride it, not knowing the condition (standard weight or seven extra pounds). Dear Howard, The rider would probably notice the extra weight if he tips the familiar bike slightly sideways or just rolls it out the garage, so we have to be awfully careful to get him to sit on it. If he stood up, he might well notice the extra weight as the bike tipped from side to side. On a reasonable paved road, he might notice the vibration damping of the extra 7 pounds. Of course, you'd have to go to a lot of trouble to have someone else insert an extra 7 pounds on a random basis. The steel rods were handy, exactly the right weight, and didn't involve awkward wind drag questions or boxes. In any case, blind testing would be far more trouble than it's worth. In Newton's world we don't need a blind test to figure out the effect on acceleration or cruising speed when we add 7 pounds to a bicycle and rider of known mass--it's so trivial that it will be lost in the ordinary real-road variations of wind and rider power. Anyone can log times for a 15 mile ride for a week and see how much the time varies. Incidentally, it was John Tomlinson who kept demanding that I add the weight, apparently unable to understand how little difference it would make. He wanted it added for a year, an even less rigorous test. After all, my power output next year is likely to be lower, given my age. So far, no one has wondered out loud what the obvious effect of paying more attention would be and whether it would be likely to outweigh (sorry, couldn't resist it) the effect of a 4% weight increase. Cheers, Carl Fogel Carl (Dear?) I think I know what the problem is. I have a similar problem with wine. To me, if the wine doesn't taste like pure alcohol, or like vinegar, I cannot distinguish between a $15 bottle of wine and a $150 bottle of wine. I am merely casual wine drinker and will never be a pro wine taster. With bicycles, it is the same. Maybe we are casual cyclists that cannot distinguish between materials or weighs. JT and jb are more likely the professional sort that have their bodies so fine tuned to bicycles as wine taster have their tongues tuned for wine. TDF riders, being pros, are even more sensitive to this subtle differences being able to distinguish bb types, composition of chainstays, seatstays, integrated headsets, carbon vs alloy cranks, and even age of the bicycle. So, even though I can down a bottle of wine like the more sophisticated wine taster, and ride a fairly good distance at good speed like some of the sensitive cycling types, I certainly have not developed the subtle sense necessary to distinguish the fruity flavors, the oak, the chocolate, the age, the carbon seatstays, the oversize bb, the carbon brifters, etc. So, maybe you and I are of the less sophisticated kind for whom aromatherapy will not work for recovery. Not sure if this is an advantage or a disadvantage. Advantage wise, I am happy with my inexpensive bikes and with my $10-$15 bottles of wine. However, maybe I am not truly enjoying some of the subtleties of life. (XOXOXO?) Andres |
#563
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Steel frames and le Tour
In article
, " wrote: I think I know what the problem is. I have a similar problem with wine. To me, if the wine doesn't taste like pure alcohol, or like vinegar, I cannot distinguish between a $15 bottle of wine and a $150 bottle of wine. I am merely casual wine drinker and will never be a pro wine taster. Pure alcohol tastes better. The most important part of a purchasing decision is quantity of alcohol/$. You can calculate this quite easily: ABV*vol/$. After that, maybe sweetness codes, -- Ryan Cousineau http://www.wiredcola.com/ "In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls." "In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them." |
#564
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Steel frames and le Tour
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#565
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Steel frames and le Tour
Donald Munro wrote:
Tom Sherman wrote: What is going on here has nothing to do with weight of bicycles. That should be obvious to RBT regulars, but likely not to RBR regulars who do not follow RBT. I was wondering how global warming affects climbing speed. Yes, the hot air being generated in this thread will certainly contribute to global warming. -- Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia "People who had no mercy will find none." - Anon. |
#566
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Steel frames and le Tour
In article ,
Bret Wade wrote: John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:12:18 -0600, Bret Wade wrote: I've been using CF levers on my cross bikes for years and crashed many times with no damage. O M G Bike weight is important on in a cross race what with all the lifting, especially for those of us with bad backs. Yes, that 22 grams must be the critical difference. Perhaps less so if your brake levers snap off on a descent... |
#567
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Steel frames and le Tour
On Sun, 20 Jul 2008 08:14:25 -0700 (PDT), "
wrote: On Jul 19, 10:15*pm, wrote: On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 20:56:40 -0700, Howard Kveck wrote: In article , wrote: On Sat, 19 Jul 2008 01:04:33 -0700, Howard Kveck wrote: In article , On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:30:32 -0700, Howard Kveck wrote: In article , wrote: The rest of the "heavier" feeling was probably due to all the extra attention that I paid (does it feel heavier? lighter? how does it normally feel?), plus the unavoidable knowledge that there were _seven_ whole pounds sitting right there in plain sight whenever I looked down at the speedometer. * One point I haven't seen made, Carl: this isn't exactly a blind test, is it? If you really wanted to seriously test this, I think you'd have to devise a way to do it so you were unaware of when the bike had the extra weight on it when you went out on the road. Dear Howard, Here's the relevant post: * No, Carl, you state in your above post "the unavoidable knowledge that there were _seven_ whole pounds sitting right there in plain sight." That pretty much defines it as *not* a blind test. Dear Howard, Er, where did I argue with you? The relevant post that I quoted in full makes it plain as sin that it wasn't a blind test. * The point was that doing a blind test is the proper scientific way. Doing it so you know the condition of the bike ("I can see the extra weight") makes the results of minimal value. For fun, tell us how you would "seriously test" for the speed and acceleration effects of a 7-lb bicycle weight increase and what blinding procedures you'd use. * I'd think it would be obvious that you need to have a bike with a package on it that is enclosed. You have someone other than yourself either fill the package with seven pounds or not fill it. Then you ride it, not knowing the condition (standard weight or seven extra pounds). Dear Howard, The rider would probably notice the extra weight if he tips the familiar bike slightly sideways or just rolls it out the garage, so we have to be awfully careful to get him to sit on it. If he stood up, he might well notice the extra weight as the bike tipped from side to side. On a reasonable paved road, he might notice the vibration damping of the extra 7 pounds. Of course, you'd have to go to a lot of trouble to have someone else insert an extra 7 pounds on a random basis. The steel rods were handy, exactly the right weight, and didn't involve awkward wind drag questions or boxes. In any case, blind testing would be far more trouble than it's worth. In Newton's world we don't need a blind test to figure out the effect on acceleration or cruising speed when we add 7 pounds to a bicycle and rider of known mass--it's so trivial that it will be lost in the ordinary real-road variations of wind and rider power. Anyone can log times for a 15 mile ride for a week and see how much the time varies. Incidentally, it was John Tomlinson who kept demanding that I add the weight, apparently unable to understand how little difference it would make. He wanted it added for a year, an even less rigorous test. After all, my power output next year is likely to be lower, given my age. So far, no one has wondered out loud what the obvious effect of paying more attention would be and whether it would be likely to outweigh (sorry, couldn't resist it) the effect of a 4% weight increase. Cheers, Carl Fogel Carl (Dear?) I think I know what the problem is. I have a similar problem with wine. To me, if the wine doesn't taste like pure alcohol, or like vinegar, I cannot distinguish between a $15 bottle of wine and a $150 bottle of wine. I am merely casual wine drinker and will never be a pro wine taster. With bicycles, it is the same. Maybe we are casual cyclists that cannot distinguish between materials or weighs. JT and jb are more likely the professional sort that have their bodies so fine tuned to bicycles as wine taster have their tongues tuned for wine. TDF riders, being pros, are even more sensitive to this subtle differences being able to distinguish bb types, composition of chainstays, seatstays, integrated headsets, carbon vs alloy cranks, and even age of the bicycle. So, even though I can down a bottle of wine like the more sophisticated wine taster, and ride a fairly good distance at good speed like some of the sensitive cycling types, I certainly have not developed the subtle sense necessary to distinguish the fruity flavors, the oak, the chocolate, the age, the carbon seatstays, the oversize bb, the carbon brifters, etc. So, maybe you and I are of the less sophisticated kind for whom aromatherapy will not work for recovery. Not sure if this is an advantage or a disadvantage. Advantage wise, I am happy with my inexpensive bikes and with my $10-$15 bottles of wine. However, maybe I am not truly enjoying some of the subtleties of life. (XOXOXO?) Andres Dear Andres, Actually, "sophisticated" wine tasters may be just as happy as you, but they're mostly fooling themselves. The same is probably true for many of our more indignant posters, who believe (in good faith) that their bicycling shorts can detect speed and acceleration differences in the range of ~2%. Wine tasting lends itself to much easier testing than adding weight to bicycles. (Luckily, Newton can tell us what happens with the weights, so it's no big deal in the bicycle world.) Wine-tasting claims have never survived real testing: "Expectations also affect your perception of taste. In 1963 three researchers secretly added a bid of red food color to white winest of it the bluse of a rose. They then asked a group of experts to rate its sweetness in comparison with the untinted wine. The experts perceived the fake rose as sweeter than the white, according to their expectation. Another group of researchers gave a group of oenology students two wine samples. Both samples contained the same white wine, but to one was added a tasteless grape anthocyanin dye that made it appear to be red wine. The students also perceived differences betwee the red and the white corresponding to their expectations. . . . " [What would riders "detect" if they rode two identical bikes lacking cyclocomputers, but were told that one bike weighed 2.2 or 4.4 pounds less?] "Wine tasters are also often fooled by the flip side of the expectancy bias: a lack of context. Holding a chunk of horseradish under your nostril, you'd probably not mistake it for a clove of garlic . . . But if you sniff clear liquid scents, all bets are off. At least that what happened when two researchers presented experts with a series of sixteen random odors: the experts misidentified about 1 ouit of every 4 scents." [What would riders "detect" about their speed and acceleration if they rode an unfamiliar generic white-painted bike for a week with a small fake black electronics box, ostensibly to test gear-shifting and braking habits or lean angles or whatever--but they weren't told that the box merely held 1 to 7 pounds of lead weights, depending on the day of the week?] "Given all these reasons for skepticism, scientists designed ways to measure wine experts' taste discrimination directly. One method is to use a wine triangle. It is not a physical triangle but a metaphor: each expert is given three wines, two of which are identical. The mission: to choose the odd sample. In a 1990 study, the experts identified the odd sample only two-thirds of the time, which means that in 1 out of 3 taste challenges these wine gurus couldn't distinguish a pinot noir with, say, 'an exuberant nose of wild strawberry, luscious blackberry, and raspberry,' from one with the scent of distinctive dried plums, yellow cherries, and silky cassis.' In the same study an ensemble of experts was asked to rank a series of wines based on 12 componets, such as alcohol content, the presence of tannins, sweetness, and fruitiness. The experts disagreed significantly on 9 of the 12 components. Finally, when asked to match wines with the descriptions provided by other experts, the subjects were correct only 70 percent of the time." [Three identical bikes, all with two black water bottles. Get on and ride down the block. Which one had a two full water bottle? Or did two have two full water bottles? Or did all three have one full water bottle, two full water bottles, or no water at all?] "Wine critics are conscious of all these difficulties. 'On many levels .. . . [the ratings system] is nonsensical,' says the editor of 'Wine and Spirits Magazine'. And according to a former editior of 'Wine Enthusiast', 'The deeper you get into this the more you realize how misguided and misleading this all is.'" ["Bicycling" magazine has to rate new bikes every month, whether they can actually detect any difference at all. Otherwise, they have nothing to print. As Ryan Cousineau has pointed out, magazines rate bicycles on a scale of 4 to 5.] --"Drunkard's Walk," Mlodinow, p. 132-133 I omit Mlodinow's scurrilous comment that Coke and Pepsi partisans, asked to confrim their preference by a taste-test, were fooled (21 out of 30 times) because the testers had put Coke in the Pepsi bottle and vice-versa. Giving people Pepsi to drink instead of Coke crosses the line between decent science and unethical abuse. Cheers, Carl Fogel |
#568
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Steel frames and le Tour
Tim McNamara wrote:
In article , Bret Wade wrote: John Forrest Tomlinson wrote: On Fri, 18 Jul 2008 23:12:18 -0600, Bret Wade wrote: I've been using CF levers on my cross bikes for years and crashed many times with no damage. O M G Bike weight is important on in a cross race what with all the lifting, especially for those of us with bad backs. Yes, that 22 grams must be the critical difference. Perhaps less so if your brake levers snap off on a descent... 60 gms if you count both levers. Every little bit helps. I have no regrets about how I've built the bike up. I've raced it for years with no unusual problems and a fair amount of success. |
#569
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Steel frames and le Tour
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#570
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Steel frames and le Tour
"Paul M. Hobson" wrote in message
... Much to my surprise, he ranked all twelve vodkas correctly. And REAL(tm) wine tasters can get incredibly accurate as well. It's just that people with that fine a taste aren't common and people with fairly good taste try to pass themselves off as better. |
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