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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels.
The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Deacon Mark |
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
Op zaterdag 26 september 2020 om 22:26:29 UTC+2 schreef :
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels. The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Deacon Mark CF rims are about aero without the weight penalty. Running 38 mm CF rims is silly in that regard. Braking using rim brakes is about 30% of aluminum rims when dry and even less in the wet. You have to use CF specific pads. I use 50 mm and they are OK in cross winds, but you have to keep your hands on the handlebar. I use CF rims on my aero bike with rim brakes only on the flats and when dry and on my gravel bike (road use) with disk brakes in the wet and dry. The two CF wheel sets (ZIPP) stay ridiculous true for years now. Lou |
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels. The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier. When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see. Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less. Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear. |
#4
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote: I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels. The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides.. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier. When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see. Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less. Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear. Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts? Deacon Mark |
#5
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote:
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote: I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels. The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier. When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see. Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less. Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear. Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts? It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would you want to do that? If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha! Take that!" to a friend. If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle. If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just ask your sponsor to buy them for you. Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form of mammon. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#6
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:37:53 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote: I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels. The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier. When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see. Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less. Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear. Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts? It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would you want to do that? If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha! Take that!" to a friend. If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle. If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just ask your sponsor to buy them for you. Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form of mammon. CF has its place, but not with rim brakes, IMO. You can get a fine aluminum wheel with most of the same characteristics at the same or even lower weight. I got the CF version of a mid-aero wheel, the Roval C38 -- because it had a better hub (cheap from my son, too), and I appreciate the stiffness. Its on a disc bike. My son traded away his CF rim-brake wheels and got a nice aluminum pair from his friend the Mavic rep. He has CF Rovals on his disc bikes. -- Jay Beattie. |
#7
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
Am Sat, 26 Sep 2020 19:37:48 -0400 schrieb Frank Krygowski
: On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote: [...] It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. He is trying to find a balance between handfull for parameters, wear, braking performance, rolling resistance (?) and last but not least, cost, for tires. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would you want to do that? As you elaborate, it depends on whether one tries to optimize for competetive reasons, cost be dammed, or whether one tires to optimise for performance, while keeping cost down. Unfortunately, the latter problems is somewhat undefined. My approach is to optimize for performance, restricting cost in two ways - have an upper limit - look for a point where the cost functions has a kink upwards. With other words, where cost sunddenly starts to explode, with diminishing returns. I replace tires when necessary, don't care for lightweight tubes and buy what is available when I need it. Fun fact: we currently have three different tires on our race bikes: Grand Prix 4 seasons, Ultra Sport on my wifes bike, Grand Prix 4000 and Ultra Sport on mine, all Continental, marked 23 mm. On my bike, both tires are exactly 25 mm wide, on my wifes I measure 24 mm and 25 mm. There is no noticeable difference in performance, at least there is nothing I can feel or measure. So I just don't care, as long as the next tire doesn't get noticeably worse. Wrt. riding competitively or not, I'm neither riding competitively, nor trying to impress some friends or my wife. But I'm trying to increase the radius of achievable targets, given a somewhat fixed time and stength budget. I live in Germany, in a densely populated area, where many streets are covered with mandatory cycle paths, which I try to avoid like the proverbial plague. In effect, there is not much choice where to ride, or to state it differently, a large chunk of my round trip is just getting to where I like to cycle and back again. I'd rather do that as fast as I can. :-) -- Wir danken für die Beachtung aller Sicherheitsbestimmungen |
#8
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote: I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels. The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier. When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see. Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less. Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear. Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts? It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would you want to do that? If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha! Take that!" to a friend. If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle. If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just ask your sponsor to buy them for you. Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form of mammon. -- - Frank Krygowski Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims. Lou |
#9
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
On Sunday, September 27, 2020 at 5:41:44 AM UTC-5, wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote: I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels. The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier. When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see. Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less. Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear. Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts? It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would you want to do that? If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha! Take that!" to a friend. If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle. If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just ask your sponsor to buy them for you. Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form of mammon. -- - Frank Krygowski Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims. Lou Well I pretty much expected that the answer is no not really any better. I am normally a solo rider and I do appreciate brakes that work well. My rim brakes do a fine job unless it is wet but even then they do work fine. I was just getting a bit antsy. Personally I am thinking about going to a disk brake road bike and have been looking at Lynskey R300. Not the lightest animal on the planet but nothing beats them in the price. Going to a disk brake with a bit wider tires for me would a huge change at least I think. I still run 23's but they are fine on the roads I ride. The wider stuff would make some roads easier. I guess what I appreciate more than anything is a real smooth quiet riding bike it that makes sense. I notice I road my Wilier GT last week 3 times and what really was apparent was that it is noisier than the TI Habanero by far. The CF seems to pick up the wind currents and the cables make noise shifting. I went back to my Habby and to me a pretty big difference. Deacon Mark |
#10
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Carbon Fiber wheels and braking
On 9/27/2020 6:41 AM, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op zondag 27 september 2020 om 01:37:53 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski: On 9/26/2020 7:07 PM, Mark Cleary wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 4:00:26 PM UTC-5, wrote: On Saturday, September 26, 2020 at 1:26:29 PM UTC-7, wrote: I have always road basic aluminum clincher wheels. Every once in awhile I get an urge to try CF wheels. First of all is that a bad idea do they really do much better. Then there is the issue of needing to use the rim brake pad that is specific for carbon fiber wheels. The big question is if the braking performance is a good a traditional AL rims? Anyone here running CF wheels with CF braking tracks and what do you think? In some ways maybe some aero wheels would be slightly better for the flatlands where I live but maybe not in the mountains of big hill rides. Would 38mm rims blow me all around it sure seems like 50 and above would. Campagnolo makes some carbon fiber compatible brake shoes that you can put in your high end brakes and they brake almost as good as aluminum brakes and standard shoes. Now that sort of makes me nervous about the long term effects on carbon wheel brake track. But the Chinese brake shoes have pretty bad braking in comparison to aluminum. You get used to it and don't much notice that you're braking earlier. When buying deep aero wheels do NOT get "tubeless" rims. Always get clincher only and not "bi" rims (supposedly either tubeless or clincher compatible). 50 mm aero rims do give you a noticeably longer coasting. So I guess the aero part is real. I'm now playing around with tires again so that I don't get flats. While Gatorskins have always protected me from flats they do have a wooden ride. I like Michelin Pro 4's but you can't get them right now I suppose because of the bike boom. So I am going to try Continental 4 Seasons which supposedly have as much flat protection as Gatorskins with a better ride. We'll see about that since I mounted a pair and they didn't seem that different to me. They are on my Lemond which is waiting for parts so I'll see. Continental GP5000's wear really fast I suppose because they have such great traction. But that traction also had my bikes wandering all over the road with the changes in camber and road surface. This was bad enough that a section of road I used to descend at about 30, I was slowing to 25 or less. Vittoria Corsa 2+ are very nice tires but they, like 4 Seasons, are frightfully expensive. So presently I am trying out the Michelin Power Endurance which is supposed to be a balance of traction and wear. Lou seems to be telling me they are ****ty braking and therefore I need to simply get a disk brake bike right? Does that solve the problem or am I complete nuts? It's not clear to me what problem you're trying to solve. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it sounds like most of your riding is solo. If so, are you trying to spend less time doing your favorite routes? Carbon rims won't help that very much - maybe a couple percent. But why would you want to do that? If you're riding with friends and want to beat them to the next telephone pole or whatever, those rims may somewhat increase the number of such sprints you win. But it's a pretty expensive way to say "Ha! Take that!" to a friend. If you're road racing at an amateur level, it's much the same - an expensive way to slightly increase your odds of winning a water bottle. If you're racing at a higher level than that, don't worry about it. Just ask your sponsor to buy them for you. Don't worship technology for technology's sake. It's just another form of mammon. -- - Frank Krygowski Mark asked some questions he liked answers to. He don't need a lecture from someone who has no experience with CF rims. Lou, I notice you get very testy any time I imply that the newest and fastest and most advertised bike components may not be the best. Are you on commission? -- - Frank Krygowski |
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