A March on Washington... on Bicycle?

KingOfTheApes wrote:

One question, one characteristic that hints at a jungle is GATED
COMMUNITIES, where the Rich and Powerful isolate themselves in
relative safety, and then let the world fall prey to the Law of the
Jungle.

Is the UK like that? How often you find them in Europe for that
matter?

There's one just around the corner from me. Since we're in a very
un-troubled neighbourhood the consensus around where I live is it's a
complete waste of time for those who've bought houses in there.

So they're not isolating themselves in relative safety, they're just
isolating themselves. Their problem, not mine, rather than the other
way about.

You seem obsessed that you're living in a jungle. While I'm sure there
are parts of our respective nations that conform to the description I've
not seen much that suggests it's the rule rather than the exception.
Certainly not the case that it's a fair generalisation, yet that's what
you will persist in doing.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Nov 20, 11:41*am, Peter Clinch wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
One question, one characteristic that hints at a jungle is GATED
COMMUNITIES, where the Rich and Powerful isolate themselves in
relative safety, and then let the world fall prey to the Law of the
Jungle.

Is the UK like that? How often you find them in Europe for that
matter?

There's one just around the corner from me. *Since we're in a very
un-troubled neighbourhood the consensus around where I live is it's a
complete waste of time for those who've bought houses in there.

So they're not isolating themselves in relative safety, they're just
isolating themselves. *Their problem, not mine, rather than the other
way about.

You seem obsessed that you're living in a jungle. *While I'm sure there
are parts of our respective nations that conform to the description I've
not seen much that suggests it's the rule rather than the exception.
Certainly not the case that it's a fair generalisation, yet that's what
you will persist in doing.


Are you watching too many American shows? That may account for an
excess in SUVs and gated communities.

They are here everywhere, so they must mean something. Actually, I
think they mean the same as in Mexico or Costa Rica...

"about the EU and gated communities. I have not seen one. You can find
certain suburban towns where poverty is higher than the norm..
Certainly precautions such as bullet proof glass, I have yet to
find... What I notice.. No trailer parks.. Trailer parks are often sub
income and in a state of squalor.. It's rare to find such an invention
thourghout the EU.. Why. For the most part, you go to the biggest
towns we have extensively walked about town centers and not felt
unsafe. Places such as Barcelona, you might find your pockets picked,
but you are safe. So why a need for gated communities."

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread.php?t=488100

"KingOfTheApes" wrote in message
...
[...]
Are you watching too many American shows? That may account for an
excess in SUVs and gated communities.

They are here everywhere, so they must mean something. Actually, I
think they mean the same as in Mexico or Costa Rica...

Yes, I think it does mean the same thing. As civilization breaks down, those
with the wherewithal seek safety above all else. They will not only move to
gated communities, but they will fortify their homes with walls in the end.
Go to any third world country and you will see what I mean.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

In rec.bicycles.misc Peter Clinch wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

Now the question is how many decades we will take to make drivers, who
are used to the law of the jungle, more civilized?

It takes time, but it can (and does) happen. For example, not too
long ago in the UK "one for the road" was perfectly acceptable
amongst the general population. Nowadays drink driving is a pretty
major no-no for the general public.

Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.

That's what I've observed for myself. That the thing that really
motivates most poeple is when the cost to their pocketbook rises. This
is especially true if it's a rapid rise. Inconveinence in the form of
traffic jams, poor parking and other things help also. But cost seems
to be a big driver (no pun intended) of people's change in behaviour.

--
Dane Buson -
"Never draw fire; it irritates the people around you."

On Nov 20, 2:24*pm, Dane Buson wrote:
In rec.bicycles.misc Peter Clinch wrote:

KingOfTheApes wrote:

Now the question is how many decades we will take to make drivers, who
are used to the law of the jungle, more civilized?

It takes time, but it can (and does) happen. *For example, not too
long ago in the UK "one for the road" was perfectly acceptable
amongst the general population. *Nowadays drink driving is a pretty
major no-no for the general public.

Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.

That's what I've observed for myself. *That the thing that really
motivates most poeple is when the cost to their pocketbook rises. *This
is especially true if it's a rapid rise. *Inconveinence in the form of
traffic jams, poor parking and other things help also. *But cost seems
to be a big driver (no pun intended) of people's change in behaviour.


Yeah, that's why I get so depressed... the price of oil is going
down.

But then I remember that we are in the middle of a huge economic
crisis and that the Big Three are trying to survive after producing so
many fat SUVs, and finally I get happy.

KingOfTheApes wrote:

Are you watching too many American shows? That may account for an
excess in SUVs and gated communities.

They are here everywhere, so they must mean something.

It means they're a popular fashion accessory, not that you're living in
a jungle. I used to date a US resident and visited many times so my
outlook on the country isn't entirely confined to TV.

"about the EU and gated communities. I have not seen one."

So you didn't bother with the fact that I live around the corner from one?

find... What I notice.. No trailer parks.. Trailer parks are often sub
income and in a state of squalor.. It's rare to find such an invention
thourghout the EU..

Instead you get much more in the way of traveller communities (aka
gypsies), effectively the same but the trailers remain mobile and move
from place to place. AFAICT far more of that in the EU than in the US.

Why. For the most part, you go to the biggest
towns we have extensively walked about town centers and not felt
unsafe. Places such as Barcelona, you might find your pockets picked,
but you are safe. So why a need for gated communities."

The need is perception over reality. Not entirely unlike the need for
bike paths, in that respect.

Town centres is one think, sink areas in suburbs quite another. I can
take you places in most towns in the UK where you won't feel safe. I
wouldn't do that, simply because I wouldn't feel safe either.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

On Nov 21, 3:14*am, Peter Clinch wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
Are you watching too many American shows? That may account for an
excess in SUVs and gated communities.

They are here everywhere, so they must mean something.

It means they're a popular fashion accessory, not that you're living in
a jungle. *I used to date a US resident and visited many times so my
outlook on the country isn't entirely confined to TV.

Well, again, you may have visited only the beautiful areas.


"about the EU and gated communities. I have not seen one."

So you didn't bother with the fact that I live around the corner from one?

I'm not saying you are lying, but the UK is NOT continental Europe,
and there seems to be a lot of resistance to the EU.

Is my friend lying?


find... What I notice.. No trailer parks.. Trailer parks are often sub
income and in a state of squalor.. It's rare to find such an invention
thourghout the EU..

Instead you get much more in the way of traveller communities (aka
gypsies), effectively the same but the trailers remain mobile and move
from place to place. *AFAICT far more of that in the EU than in the US.

Why. For the most part, you go to the biggest
towns we have extensively walked about town centers and not felt
unsafe. Places such as Barcelona, you might find your pockets picked,
but you are safe. So why a need for gated communities."

The need is perception over reality. *Not entirely unlike the need for
bike paths, in that respect.

So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...

Book Review: Economic Apartheid in America

A startling new book by co-founders of United for a Fair Economy
highlights the downfalls of an economic boom that has left millions of
Americans behind.

SocialFunds.com -- Concern about the South African practice of
apartheid, forced segregation and discrimination against the black
majority, sparked the growth of socially responsible investing in the
1970s and 1980s. A new book raises the specter of apartheid closer to
home in the U.S., only this time the inequality is not based on race,
but on income.

http://www.socialfunds.com/news/arti...fArticleId=342


Town centres is one think, sink areas in suburbs quite another. *I can
take you places in most towns in the UK where you won't feel safe. *I
wouldn't do that, simply because I wouldn't feel safe either.

Are the authorities so vigilant as they are toward terrorism? Perhaps
they don't care, huh?

In article ,
Peter Clinch writes:

Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.

Drivers taking to bikes doesn't necessarily change attitudes.
I think a lot of sidewalk riders are erstwhile drivers who
used to yell: "Get on the [expletive] sidewalk" at adjacent
cyclists. Drivers freshly upon bicycles will bring drivers'
attitudes, P'sOV and styles to bear.

They will behave as they previously desired & expected
cyclists to behave, thinking they're doing the right things.
It'll take them a while for them to realize they've
been humbled.

It'll take a while longer for them to realize they haven't
been humbled at all.

It'll take even longer for them to realize that while they
haven't be humbled, they haven't necessarily been exalted --
they're just people among many, on the streets & roads of
the world.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca

KingOfTheApes wrote:

I'm not saying you are lying, but the UK is NOT continental Europe,
and there seems to be a lot of resistance to the EU.

Is my friend lying?

I am saying you are confusing anecdotal data with useful statistical
data. You quote anecdotes to support what you say, but my point in
pushing an anecdote back is to show you anecdotes don't realluy mean
much. But you appear to rely on them. "Here is a web log saying
someone thinks such and such, so that proves it!" It doesn't.

The need is perception over reality. Not entirely unlike the need for
bike paths, in that respect.

So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...

er, what? I never said anything like that, so don't jump to such a
conclusion. I said the /need/ for geted communities is largely one of
perception. Which is nothing to do with economic apartheid.

You really do need to stop and read what people write, rather than just
ignoring what they write and printing something irrelevant you happen to
want to say as an "answer".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

In article ,
Peter Clinch writes:
KingOfTheApes wrote:

So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...

er, what? I never said anything like that, so don't jump to such a
conclusion. I said the /need/ for geted communities is largely one of
perception. Which is nothing to do with economic apartheid.

You really do need to stop and read what people write, rather than just
ignoring what they write and printing something irrelevant you happen to
want to say as an "answer".


Hello Peter :-)

Your debating adversary shall not heed your advice,
for he is an anti-bicycling (upon public roads and
streets) propagandist, through and through.

I'm sure he does stop and read what people write/say,
but changing the subject is one of his favourite
tactics.

It is futile to discuss his remarks & statements
at the ostensible level. That just provides him
with opportunities to spew more propaganda. I
suggest aiming straight for the (metaphorical)
heart or the brain.

Commandant Klink here is simply out to dissuade people
from riding upon public streets & roads and thereby
requiring of drivers the effort of thought. His
strategy is to frighten bicyclists "out of the ways"
of drivers such as himself. It is time to deal with
him at a strategic rather than a tactical level.

Any effort to dumb-down operating a motor vehicle
is pernicious. But that is his ultimate goal.
His posting history proves that.

Beware the fifth column.


cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca