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A Sustrans dilemma



 
 
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  #61  
Old September 6th 05, 04:42 PM
MartinM
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Default A Sustrans dilemma


Al C-F wrote:

It's not just the paths created by SusTrans but the paths put in by
Local Authorities who are following their lead. So much separation
leads to abuse from motorists who complain when one chooses not to stay
in the lane / use the path.


I think some of the comments made about Sustrans on this thread are
undeserved; to put it into context they started off as a body
converting old railways which in the main they have done an excellent
job of (I used many of them before Sustrans took them over). Somewhere
along the line the remit does seems to have changed a bit into as you
say creating an artificial alternative network, often where it is
simply not practical. This may have involved local authorities and road
safety officers. Much like parallel cycling farcilities to roads a
minimum standard needs to be defined and met, and not the "paint a bike
on the pavement/canal towpath etc." syndrome. And there needs to be a
bit more cohesion, we now have an alternative NCN (the National
Greenway) when they should all be working together.

Ads
  #62  
Old September 6th 05, 04:55 PM
Mike K Smith
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Default A Sustrans dilemma



MartinM wrote:
And there needs to be a
bit more cohesion, we now have an alternative NCN (the National
Greenway) when they should all be working together.


Do you mean the National Byway? The National Bicycle Greenway seems to
be a US initiative.

spotter
Unless you were referring to the Leyland Bus.
/spotter

I'll get my anorak...

  #63  
Old September 6th 05, 07:25 PM
Danny Colyer
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Default A Sustrans dilemma

tom wrote:
Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear. I'm not pro-barriers per se, but I can see
the reasoning for them being there. Personally I'd like to see (and I'd be
interested to see more info in this subject..) barriers which do work, ie
which could allow more utility accessories you mention, as well as other
path users (tandem, trike etc.).


I'm not sure how much we can blame Sustrans for barriers that are put in
by local authorities. Current Sustrans guidelines actually state:
"It is important ... to open all the controls ... so that a recumbent
cyclist, for instance, does not get part way along and find their way
barred..."
URL:http://www.sustrans.org/webfiles/Info%20sheets/ff22.pdf

and:
"There should be a presumption against the use of any access barriers on
a shared use path because of the difficulties they can cause users."
URL:http://www.sustrans.org/webfiles/Info%20sheets/ff04.pdf

The Sustrans guidelines changed a few years ago, though. Prior to that
they were all in favour of the sort of barriers that prevent legitimate
users from using the path. We are still left with the legacy of those
guidelines, in the form of barriers that were installed years ago, and I
wouldn't be surprised if some local authorities are still working with
the old guidelines.

Most of the barriers along the Bath-Bristol path were modified a few
years ago, making them easier to get through. There are still 3 that I
can't get through towing a trailer. They all have RADAR gates
alongside, so I expected going out for a family ride to become easier
once I acquired a RADAR key. Unfortunately the gates were rusted shut,
so the key made no difference - until, a couple of weeks after I
happened to mention the Disability Discrimination Act in an e-mail to
the council, the gates received some much needed maintenance. Riding to
Bath with the kids is now a lot easier.

BTW, another Sustrans guidance sheet states that RADAR gates:
"are unlikely to be acceptable under the [Disability Discrimination] Act
since many disabled people find them impossible or extremely difficult
to use. Consequently they should not be considered to be a 'reasonable'
alternative.
URL:http://www.sustrans.org/webfiles/scotland/FF42%20-%20Making%20traffic%20free%20paths%20more%20access ible.pdf

The ideal situation is more policing, which would be excellent.


Unfortunately that would mean that the police would actually have to do
some work to justify the year-on-year increases in funding that they
request from our council tax. I can't see it happening, somehow :-(

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
  #64  
Old September 6th 05, 07:25 PM
Danny Colyer
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Default A Sustrans dilemma

Audrey wrote (of cyclepath barriers):
IME they don't stop the kids on motorbikes.


and Tom responded:
No, but they discourage them. If you are a kid on a motorbike and you see
a nice looking track coming straight off a road with nothing to stop you
getting on it, you're going to get on it - right? Where you can zoom
around to your hearts content without getting into trouble.


They don't seem to discourage them round here. The kids don't ride
along the road and suddenly think "Ooh, there's a nice looking
cyclepath". They know the path's there, they now the ways to get round
the barriers and they go out with the specific intention of riding on
the cyclepath. I don't believe the barriers make the slightest difference.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
  #65  
Old September 6th 05, 07:25 PM
Danny Colyer
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Default A Sustrans dilemma

Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
I'd suggest that if the tracks were fully used, then the motorbikes would
not be on them anyway.


The Bath-Bristol path is very heavily used. Doesn't stop the motorbikes.

A few weeks ago I met a TV journalist and cameraman on the cyclepath at
rush hour. There were _a lot_ of cyclists and peds around. Shortly
after interviewing me, the cameraman got good shots of two motorcyclists
weaving around peds and cyclists at speed. They weren't bothered about
the path being busy.

--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
  #66  
Old September 6th 05, 07:30 PM
Danny Colyer
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Default A Sustrans dilemma

tom wrote:
the Bristol - Bath path is a very busy
one, with traffic flowing in both directions.


The Bristol-Bath path was created by Cyclebag, before it became
Sustrans. I believe their goals have changed since then - perhaps not
by a huge amount, but by enough to be significant. The contrast with
some of the newer paths is very noticeable.

Although I think many of the problems with Sustrans routes are due more
to local authorities than to Sustrans, still ISTM that Sustrans have
fallen into the trap of putting quantity before quality when providing
cycle routes.

And their habit of referring to "traffic free" routes really irritates
me, especially when routes such as the Bath-Bristol are often heaving
with cycle and pedestrian traffic.


--
Danny Colyer (the UK company has been laughed out of my reply address)
URL:http://www.speedy5.freeserve.co.uk/danny/
"He who dares not offend cannot be honest." - Thomas Paine
  #67  
Old September 6th 05, 07:31 PM
MartinM
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Default A Sustrans dilemma


Mike K Smith wrote:
MartinM wrote:
And there needs to be a
bit more cohesion, we now have an alternative NCN (the National
Greenway) when they should all be working together.


Do you mean the National Byway? The National Bicycle Greenway seems to
be a US initiative.


Err yes


spotter
Unless you were referring to the Leyland Bus.
/spotter


no that was called an Allegro ;-)

  #68  
Old September 6th 05, 07:56 PM
Mike Sales
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Default A Sustrans dilemma

Perhaps Sustrans and its lousy routes would be acceptable if it and they
were marketed as an organisation providing routes for children, beginners
and the timid. Noone provides special segregated roads for learner drivers.
The clear implication of there being a special organisation to provide
special routes, which has been given a big sum of lottery money and much
cooperation and funding by local government is that cyclists need seperation
from "real traffic".
The alternative to cycle routes, if cycling should be encouraged, and if
there is a difficulty with cycling on general roads, is to improve the
conditions an all roads. There are many good reasons why this would be much
preferable, if it were possible. ( Some reasons. Roads go everywhere. Many
people intimidated by traffic are not cyclists, these include many
pedestrians, parents of potential pedestrian children, older drivers, less
assertive drivers of any age. Traffic speeds make many residential areas
unpleasant etc.) The big problem with this idea ( making roads less
intimidating) is that it is not acceptable to many drivers, and for many
people so far outside the possible that it is literally unthinkable.
Sustrans ideology functions as an alternative to improving road
conditions. It also makes road conditions worse for cyclists, (except,
perhaps, beginners and children). I do not see how traffic free routes help
people learn how to deal with traffic.
Personally, I find Sustrans routes generally rather worse than the road,
and though a few are acceptable for leisure use, I would give every cycle
"facility" I have ever seen or heard of if it were made mandatory for local
authority cycle officers to be regular cyclists.( Not that this would be a
universal panacea, just that it would do more good)

Mike Sales


  #69  
Old September 6th 05, 08:03 PM
Ambrose Nankivell
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Default A Sustrans dilemma

Danny Colyer wrote:
Ambrose Nankivell wrote:
I'd suggest that if the tracks were fully used, then the motorbikes
would not be on them anyway.


The Bath-Bristol path is very heavily used. Doesn't stop the
motorbikes.
A few weeks ago I met a TV journalist and cameraman on the cyclepath
at rush hour. There were _a lot_ of cyclists and peds around. Shortly
after interviewing me, the cameraman got good shots of two
motorcyclists weaving around peds and cyclists at speed. They
weren't bothered about the path being busy.


OK, so I'm optimistic. But I'd hope the more a path is used, the more the
motorbikes are discouraged.

Also, I'd suggest legislation that allowed confiscation of the bikes, but
that may be difficult. A few well targetted ASBOs would certainly make a
propoganda difference, though.


--
Ambrose

  #70  
Old September 6th 05, 08:21 PM
vernon
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Default How much pain is involved in doing a Grimpeur?

I signed up for the Bransdale 115 Audax starting from Wiggington this
weekend because it had a 0.5 AAA rating on the Audax site and I fancied a
more challenging 100k Audax. Now that I have received the route details,
it has an AAA rating of 1.25 for the middle 51k because there is 1234m of
climbing though it's too short to qualify but permission has been granted
for the bronze grimpeur badge to be awarded. Does this make the ride a
gruelling one?

Route details can be seen at
http://www.amkirby.demon.co.uk/NYDA/Events/R050910A.htm

I'm glad that i didn't chose the 170km ride - it includes a 3rd cat, a 2nd
cat and two 1st cat climbs one of which is Rosedale Chimney, gulp.......

cheers

Vernon
not an ounce lighter after LEJOG but acquired thighs like anvils



 




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