Compressionless brake housing?

On Wed, 26 Feb 2020 22:17:41 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 2/26/2020 8:35 PM, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/26/2020 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 2:42:59 PM UTC-8, Mark Cleary wrote:
Is this stuff better than regular brake housing. I ask because rear
brakes are at times spongy on some bikes. My Wilier has buried cables
and the brake housing rear does not go all the way. At the rear exit to
the brake the housing sits in the hole. The hole is too small for
ferrule and housing just squeezed in. Makes for less than perfection
not critical but given the ****ty weather i look for things to get
perfect. If you can ride this stuff comes to mind.

Deacon mark cleary

And while we're at it - these smaller outer cables also do not cut as
easily as the older cables did. I had the perfect outer cutter that cut
the cable perfectly clean. Not so with the cutters on the market these
days. After several tries the Park Tool Cutter seems to be the best of a
bad lot. They tend to crush a portion of the outer spring wound cable
leaving a portion in the way of the inner cable unless you can get the
cutter in under that piece and sheer it off. The other tools couldn't do
that properly but the Park Tool cutters seem able to do that.

I tried cutting them with Brand X and then grinding the ends down but
that turns out to be a great deal more difficult than you would think
using a power grinder.

So getting in under the bent piece and sheering it off appears to work best.


For wires and linear gear casing, use a V-shaped cutter or
ideally an actual Felco cutter:
https://www.felco.com/us_en/our-prod.../felco-c7.html

For spiral brake casing you want a simple edge like this:
https://www.channellock.com/product/357/

The wire V-cutter mangles brake casing.


I’ve used a diamond cutoff wheel in a Dremel with pretty good results. You
just need to jam something through the inner liner after you cut and before
the plastic cools to ensure it doesn’t deform too much.

+1

I think a diamond wheel might be a bit too much. I think my first
choice would be an abrasive cutoff wheel - I've been using those 1mm
thick wheels to cut steel quite successfully.

But I'll confess, for the cables housing I just cut them off with a
pair of cutters as Andrew suggested and than touch the ends to a bench
grinder to "square" the end and get rid of any bent and mashed wires.

Something I read somewhere and it works. When cutting the inner wire
it sometimes unravels, just slather a bit of "magic glue" on the cable
before cutting, wait a moment, and presto! no more problems :-)
--
cheers,

John B.

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:51:45 PM UTC-8, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
[1]Terminology: If by 'compressionless' you meant 'gear
casing', don't do that. If you meant 'spiral and liner
double layer', that's expensive but does work equally well
for either.

I think he's referring to Jagwire's KEB-SL housing, or something like it. It's like gear casing, but with a layer of braided kevlar to contain it from bursting.

https://jagwire.com/products/housing...-brake-housing
https://thecyclemechanic.co.uk/compr...s-a-difference


I'm not convinced that it's really any better and in fact feel a little wary about it.


It looks like there's others on the market that I hadn't come across before.

Yokozuna has a variant which appears to use spiralled metal ribbon where Jagwire has their kevlar weave. I feel more comfortable with this than Jagwire's approach.

http://www.yokozunausa.com/recasy.html

-Luns

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 5:07:49 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/26/2020 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 2:42:59 PM UTC-8, Mark Cleary wrote:
Is this stuff better than regular brake housing. I ask because rear brakes are at times spongy on some bikes. My Wilier has buried cables and the brake housing rear does not go all the way. At the rear exit to the brake the housing sits in the hole. The hole is too small for ferrule and housing just squeezed in. Makes for less than perfection not critical but given the ****ty weather i look for things to get perfect. If you can ride this stuff comes to mind.

Deacon mark cleary

And while we're at it - these smaller outer cables also do not cut as easily as the older cables did. I had the perfect outer cutter that cut the cable perfectly clean. Not so with the cutters on the market these days. After several tries the Park Tool Cutter seems to be the best of a bad lot. They tend to crush a portion of the outer spring wound cable leaving a portion in the way of the inner cable unless you can get the cutter in under that piece and sheer it off. The other tools couldn't do that properly but the Park Tool cutters seem able to do that.

I tried cutting them with Brand X and then grinding the ends down but that turns out to be a great deal more difficult than you would think using a power grinder.

So getting in under the bent piece and sheering it off appears to work best.


For wires and linear gear casing, use a V-shaped cutter or
ideally an actual Felco cutter:
https://www.felco.com/us_en/our-prod.../felco-c7.html

For spiral brake casing you want a simple edge like this:
https://www.channellock.com/product/357/

The wire V-cutter mangles brake casing.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

How are you proposing that you cut using that flat front cutter? You use the V-cutter and then trim it with the Channel lock?

I had a V-cutter from somewhere that make a perfect cut of the spiral wound brake cables but it disappeared. Since I have a habit of setting tools on top of the car in the garage I suspect that is what I did and drove off with a tool on the car and lost it.

I bought a Pedro and it doesn't work nearly as well. The Park Tool works a little better but still leaves a crushed partial outer wire. But with the Park you can lift it up and get under it and cut it off clean.

Now BC Bicycle works made a $20 cutter that is supposedly made to but outer covers as well and the inner cables. I'm thinking about that since I do rebuild bikes enough to need a good tool.

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 5:35:47 PM UTC-8, Ralph Barone wrote:
AMuzi wrote:
On 2/26/2020 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 2:42:59 PM UTC-8, Mark Cleary wrote:
Is this stuff better than regular brake housing. I ask because rear
brakes are at times spongy on some bikes. My Wilier has buried cables
and the brake housing rear does not go all the way. At the rear exit to
the brake the housing sits in the hole. The hole is too small for
ferrule and housing just squeezed in. Makes for less than perfection
not critical but given the ****ty weather i look for things to get
perfect. If you can ride this stuff comes to mind.

Deacon mark cleary

And while we're at it - these smaller outer cables also do not cut as
easily as the older cables did. I had the perfect outer cutter that cut
the cable perfectly clean. Not so with the cutters on the market these
days. After several tries the Park Tool Cutter seems to be the best of a
bad lot. They tend to crush a portion of the outer spring wound cable
leaving a portion in the way of the inner cable unless you can get the
cutter in under that piece and sheer it off. The other tools couldn't do
that properly but the Park Tool cutters seem able to do that.

I tried cutting them with Brand X and then grinding the ends down but
that turns out to be a great deal more difficult than you would think
using a power grinder.

So getting in under the bent piece and sheering it off appears to work best.


For wires and linear gear casing, use a V-shaped cutter or
ideally an actual Felco cutter:
https://www.felco.com/us_en/our-prod.../felco-c7.html

For spiral brake casing you want a simple edge like this:
https://www.channellock.com/product/357/

The wire V-cutter mangles brake casing.


I’ve used a diamond cutoff wheel in a Dremel with pretty good results. You
just need to jam something through the inner liner after you cut and before
the plastic cools to ensure it doesn’t deform too much.

That's what they make toothpicks for.

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:51:45 PM UTC-8, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
[1]Terminology: If by 'compressionless' you meant 'gear
casing', don't do that. If you meant 'spiral and liner
double layer', that's expensive but does work equally well
for either.

I think he's referring to Jagwire's KEB-SL housing, or something like it. It's like gear casing, but with a layer of braided kevlar to contain it from bursting.

https://jagwire.com/products/housing...-brake-housing
https://thecyclemechanic.co.uk/compr...s-a-difference


I'm not convinced that it's really any better and in fact feel a little wary about it.

-Luns

The actual brake runs on the Trek are so short that it is the frame that is bracing the inner brake wire and not the outer cables.

The problem I've had with Jagwire is that they often sneak in steel in places you really want stainless. Inner shift wires for instance. They will cover it with some sort of dark plastic that hides the true material. But the plastic end pieces and the outer cables are pretty good stuff.

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 9:45:03 PM UTC-8, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 6:51:45 PM UTC-8, Luns Tee wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 3:08:30 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
[1]Terminology: If by 'compressionless' you meant 'gear
casing', don't do that. If you meant 'spiral and liner
double layer', that's expensive but does work equally well
for either.

I think he's referring to Jagwire's KEB-SL housing, or something like it. It's like gear casing, but with a layer of braided kevlar to contain it from bursting.

https://jagwire.com/products/housing...-brake-housing
https://thecyclemechanic.co.uk/compr...s-a-difference


I'm not convinced that it's really any better and in fact feel a little wary about it.


It looks like there's others on the market that I hadn't come across before.

Yokozuna has a variant which appears to use spiralled metal ribbon where Jagwire has their kevlar weave. I feel more comfortable with this than Jagwire's approach.

http://www.yokozunausa.com/recasy.html

-Luns

That looks good. I added it to my catalog.

On 2/27/2020 12:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 5:07:49 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/26/2020 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 2:42:59 PM UTC-8, Mark Cleary wrote:
Is this stuff better than regular brake housing. I ask because rear brakes are at times spongy on some bikes. My Wilier has buried cables and the brake housing rear does not go all the way. At the rear exit to the brake the housing sits in the hole. The hole is too small for ferrule and housing just squeezed in. Makes for less than perfection not critical but given the ****ty weather i look for things to get perfect. If you can ride this stuff comes to mind.

Deacon mark cleary

And while we're at it - these smaller outer cables also do not cut as easily as the older cables did. I had the perfect outer cutter that cut the cable perfectly clean. Not so with the cutters on the market these days. After several tries the Park Tool Cutter seems to be the best of a bad lot. They tend to crush a portion of the outer spring wound cable leaving a portion in the way of the inner cable unless you can get the cutter in under that piece and sheer it off. The other tools couldn't do that properly but the Park Tool cutters seem able to do that.

I tried cutting them with Brand X and then grinding the ends down but that turns out to be a great deal more difficult than you would think using a power grinder.

So getting in under the bent piece and sheering it off appears to work best.


For wires and linear gear casing, use a V-shaped cutter or
ideally an actual Felco cutter:
https://www.felco.com/us_en/our-prod.../felco-c7.html

For spiral brake casing you want a simple edge like this:
https://www.channellock.com/product/357/

The wire V-cutter mangles brake casing.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

How are you proposing that you cut using that flat front cutter? You use the V-cutter and then trim it with the Channel lock?

I had a V-cutter from somewhere that make a perfect cut of the spiral wound brake cables but it disappeared. Since I have a habit of setting tools on top of the car in the garage I suspect that is what I did and drove off with a tool on the car and lost it.

I bought a Pedro and it doesn't work nearly as well. The Park Tool works a little better but still leaves a crushed partial outer wire. But with the Park you can lift it up and get under it and cut it off clean.

Now BC Bicycle works made a $20 cutter that is supposedly made to but outer covers as well and the inner cables. I'm thinking about that since I do rebuild bikes enough to need a good tool.


Not sure I understand your question but I've been using a
ChanneLock brand American made end cutter for spiral casing
for 49 years[1] without incident. Nice clean cut with the
occasional second snip to get a flat face. I switched from
VAR[2] V cutters to Felco[3] in the middle 1980s for wires
and shortly thereafter for linear gear casing. Also no
problem with either.

But hey I'm just reporting, use what you like.

[1]Not the exact same cutter - they do wear and they get
abuse too. But these are readily available, not very
expensive, well made and durable.

[2]Best thing of its era but below our modern standards for
longevity. Whether material or temper, the edge wears too fast.

[3] No idea how Felco stays in business. Damned things last
just forever despite much abuse. Material, temper, finish
are all overkill, and priced like it too, but you won't
replace it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 11:42:59 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:
Is this stuff better than regular brake housing. I ask because rear brakes are at times spongy on some bikes. My Wilier has buried cables and the brake housing rear does not go all the way. At the rear exit to the brake the housing sits in the hole. The hole is too small for ferrule and housing just squeezed in. Makes for less than perfection not critical but given the ****ty weather i look for things to get perfect. If you can ride this stuff comes to mind.

Deacon mark cleary

I tried once those housing with all those aluminum links which allows small curves. They were awful (creaking) and ridiculous expensive. I didn't notice improvement in sponginess. Just use normal good quality housings and install them careful:
- use a good cutter,
- I grind them flat and square with a belt sander,
- open squeezed housing and liner with a small metal pricker toothpick size,
- don't use ridiculous large loops.
- squeeze the brake lever hard before doing the final adjustment to seat the housing properly.

It doesn't get better than this, except using hydraulics of course. I am always surprised how lazy people are replacing cables. They live with brake cables that have a lot of friction because of pollution/worn liners for a long time. A popular birthday present I give club members is a new cable set including a 'voucher' for installing them. My presents are always bike related.

Lou

On Thursday, February 27, 2020 at 11:42:18 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/27/2020 12:08 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 5:07:49 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 2/26/2020 5:04 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 2:42:59 PM UTC-8, Mark Cleary wrote:
Is this stuff better than regular brake housing. I ask because rear brakes are at times spongy on some bikes. My Wilier has buried cables and the brake housing rear does not go all the way. At the rear exit to the brake the housing sits in the hole. The hole is too small for ferrule and housing just squeezed in. Makes for less than perfection not critical but given the ****ty weather i look for things to get perfect. If you can ride this stuff comes to mind.

Deacon mark cleary

And while we're at it - these smaller outer cables also do not cut as easily as the older cables did. I had the perfect outer cutter that cut the cable perfectly clean. Not so with the cutters on the market these days. After several tries the Park Tool Cutter seems to be the best of a bad lot. They tend to crush a portion of the outer spring wound cable leaving a portion in the way of the inner cable unless you can get the cutter in under that piece and sheer it off. The other tools couldn't do that properly but the Park Tool cutters seem able to do that.

I tried cutting them with Brand X and then grinding the ends down but that turns out to be a great deal more difficult than you would think using a power grinder.

So getting in under the bent piece and sheering it off appears to work best.


For wires and linear gear casing, use a V-shaped cutter or
ideally an actual Felco cutter:
https://www.felco.com/us_en/our-prod.../felco-c7.html

For spiral brake casing you want a simple edge like this:
https://www.channellock.com/product/357/

The wire V-cutter mangles brake casing.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

How are you proposing that you cut using that flat front cutter? You use the V-cutter and then trim it with the Channel lock?

I had a V-cutter from somewhere that make a perfect cut of the spiral wound brake cables but it disappeared. Since I have a habit of setting tools on top of the car in the garage I suspect that is what I did and drove off with a tool on the car and lost it.

I bought a Pedro and it doesn't work nearly as well. The Park Tool works a little better but still leaves a crushed partial outer wire. But with the Park you can lift it up and get under it and cut it off clean.

Now BC Bicycle works made a $20 cutter that is supposedly made to but outer covers as well and the inner cables. I'm thinking about that since I do rebuild bikes enough to need a good tool.


Not sure I understand your question but I've been using a
ChanneLock brand American made end cutter for spiral casing
for 49 years[1] without incident. Nice clean cut with the
occasional second snip to get a flat face. I switched from
VAR[2] V cutters to Felco[3] in the middle 1980s for wires
and shortly thereafter for linear gear casing. Also no
problem with either.

But hey I'm just reporting, use what you like.

[1]Not the exact same cutter - they do wear and they get
abuse too. But these are readily available, not very
expensive, well made and durable.

[2]Best thing of its era but below our modern standards for
longevity. Whether material or temper, the edge wears too fast.

[3] No idea how Felco stays in business. Damned things last
just forever despite much abuse. Material, temper, finish
are all overkill, and priced like it too, but you won't
replace it.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Well, my question addressed the problem that end cutters can only cut from the end of a cable only an in or so longer than you are fitting. This means that you have to use the V-cutters to cut the piece off of the roll and then use the end cutters to trim it to size and make a clean cut on the end. I'll get a channel lock end cutter from your recommendation.

On 2/28/2020 2:57 AM, wrote:
On Wednesday, February 26, 2020 at 11:42:59 PM UTC+1, Mark Cleary wrote:
Is this stuff better than regular brake housing. I ask because rear brakes are at times spongy on some bikes. My Wilier has buried cables and the brake housing rear does not go all the way. At the rear exit to the brake the housing sits in the hole. The hole is too small for ferrule and housing just squeezed in. Makes for less than perfection not critical but given the ****ty weather i look for things to get perfect. If you can ride this stuff comes to mind.

Deacon mark cleary

I tried once those housing with all those aluminum links which allows small curves. They were awful (creaking) and ridiculous expensive. I didn't notice improvement in sponginess. Just use normal good quality housings and install them careful:
- use a good cutter,
- I grind them flat and square with a belt sander,
- open squeezed housing and liner with a small metal pricker toothpick size,
- don't use ridiculous large loops.
- squeeze the brake lever hard before doing the final adjustment to seat the housing properly.

It doesn't get better than this, except using hydraulics of course. I am always surprised how lazy people are replacing cables. They live with brake cables that have a lot of friction because of pollution/worn liners for a long time. A popular birthday present I give club members is a new cable set including a 'voucher' for installing them. My presents are always bike related.


+1

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971