#191
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Bottle holder
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 3:05:03 PM UTC-4, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Monday, May 20, 2019 at 8:21:55 AM UTC-4, AK wrote: I want to get a bottle holder for my bike. It has no pre-drilled holes for the holder. I found some that clamp on but not sure if they would work with the wide tube that I would need to mount it to. https://www.dropbox.com/s/llqwef4nym...71257.jpg?dl=0 Andy Bringing this thread back to the topic of bottle holders. On some really long rides when the weather is quite hot and humid I'll use a spare toe strap to hold a water bottle under my seat tube and another spare toe strap to hold a water bottle to my handlebar. To hold the bottle to the handlebar the strap goes over the handlebar, then under the stem then back over the handlebar and around the bottle. Heck, I've even used the handlebar mount strap to hold a cup of coffee. Cheers Addendum. Here are two images I took on today's ride to show how I use a toestrap to mount a spare bottle to my handlebar. This is my 1980's MIELE MTB converted to dropbar, cyclocross levers and V-brakes. https://flic.kr/p/2g3cWtj and https://flic.kr/p/2g3cWvJ Cheers |
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#192
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Bottle holder
On 5/26/2019 6:36 PM, John B. wrote:
On Sun, 26 May 2019 10:11:47 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 26 May 2019 13:18:43 +0700, John B. wrote: On Sat, 25 May 2019 21:13:36 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Fri, 24 May 2019 15:22:12 +0700, John B. wrote: Different strokes for different folks, I guess. But sharpening drills is just two passes across the grinding wheel and a chain saw has a multitude of teeth :-) Sharpening chain saw cutters is much easier than sharpening a drill bit. I have enough chain saws and spare chains that knowing how to sharpen the chains is an economic requirement. http://www.learnbydestroying.com/jeffl/pics/chainsaw/chain-saws-02.jpg (I no longer own the 3 Homelite EZ saws in the first two rows). Sharpening chains is mostly a matter of knowing how to use a file guide, doing symmetrical cuts from both sides of the bar, and occasionally using the depth gauge to check raker height. I have a fancy guide: https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200308557_200308557 but prefer a simple file guide: https://www.homedepot.com/p/Oregon-3-16-in-File-Guide-with-File-25896/307730637 I find chain saw sharpening much easier than drill bit sharpening. My father's older brother was crippled - had polio when he was a senior in high school. Being a typical New England family he expected to work and because he couldn't get around he started filing saws - this was back in the days when carpenters used hand saws - and I remember him filing one tooth at a time until he worked all the way down the saw blade and then flipping the saw in the vise and starting back. I asked him once about some sort of grinding machine and he said that yes, he had tried that but hand filing was better. I don't expect that you can get that sort of hand work in the U.S. any more... nor over here either. Probably still being done in very rural areas, but not in the cities. However, there's hope. There are many videos on YouTube demonstrating how to sharpen rip and crosscut saws by hand: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=sharpen+hand+saw Well just looking at the pictures the first two selections are wrong :-) and it is probably a sign of old age but multiple youtube movies to show the initiated how to do something that should be almost intuitive, or at least intuitive as soon as one examined the cutting edge of a wood saw. Way back in the early 1960's, we had a "knife sharpener" make the rounds of the factories in downtown Smog Angeles offering to sharpen anything that might need sharpening. I don't recall if that included saws, but I suspect he would sharpen one if asked. My father owned a lingerie factory and this sharpener would do all his scissors, raffle cutters, drills, etc. He had an amazing push cart that was literally crammed full of hand tools or all types. I wish I had photos. No electricity was used. All his grinding wheels were hand or foot powered. Something like this but bigger and with cabinets full of hand tools: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GD0snLGV-Q https://www.google.com/search?q=knife+sharpening+push+cart&bm=isch He had various polishing stones for hand sharpening. Most everything was done by hand which produced perfect edges (depending on application). I didn't really appreciate the skills involved until I later tried to sharpen a few things myself. There used to be an old fellow that came around on a bicycle sharpening knives, etc. He is long gone now but he had rigged up his bicycle with a grinding wheel mounted above the rear wheel and by putting the bike up on its stand and lowering the grinding wheel attachment he could pedal the bike standing beside it and have a high speed grinder. For many, many years Chuck Harris was a feature of many cycling events around Ohio. He was famous for his overloaded VW Bus, his super-capacity homemade derailleurs, his fenders recycled from 2 liter pop bottles, etc. etc. But he was most famous for his custom made eyeglass mirrors. He did a lot of the mirror work while pedal-powering a grinder he cobbled together from a bike frame. I don't know if this link will work. (I hate Facebook): https://www.facebook.com/43469530324...8544875197047/ Chuck died in 2012. He was a very interesting guy. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#193
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Bottle holder
On Sun, 26 May 2019 15:23:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann
wrote: On Sun, 26 May 2019 14:17:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Handlebar mounted water bottles lost favor with fashionable cyclists due to competition from other devices that are hung on the handlebars. (...) What to do if you run out of space on your handlebars: https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar.jpg https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar2.jpg https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar3.jpg https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/light-mounts.php Might be some room left for water bottles. More on Rivnuts: http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut. Yup, that's one. If I had my camera I could post you a photo of a bike that must be 15 years old now with rivnuts in the down and seat tubes. No failure yet. But never mind the rivnuts the damned front fork broke, and the rims, and what appears to be the bottom bracket. They just don't make them like they used to. -- cheers, John B. |
#194
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Bottle holder
On Sun, 26 May 2019 18:59:09 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote: On 5/26/2019 6:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: On Sun, 26 May 2019 14:17:51 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: Handlebar mounted water bottles lost favor with fashionable cyclists due to competition from other devices that are hung on the handlebars. (...) What to do if you run out of space on your handlebars: https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar.jpg https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar2.jpg https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/images/products/Lights/nitto-light-bar3.jpg I don't see a reason you couldn't "daisy chain" these things. Fit one after another, cascading all the way down to the front wheel. Or actually, front fender, because such a bike would certainly have fenders. Then you could easily mount a front water bottle cage - or a few! Or maybe we could get rich building water bottles with tiny little wheels on. They could be towed behind the bicycle thus eliminating the need for those dangerous rivnuts. One could built 2 wheel, 4 wheel, even six and eight wheels. Think of the prestige, "Oh, mine is an eight wheeler". -- cheers, John B. |
#195
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Bottle holder
On 5/26/2019 3:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
snip More on Rivnuts: http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut. No one disputes that Rivnuts weaken a frame, it's just a question of how much. It's unclear if that example involved factory install Rivnuts or Rivnuts installed afterward. The latter is much more prone to failure of course, though in most cases you can get away with it, depending on the frame material and how well the drilling and installation was done. The fact that people get away with drilling and installing Rivnuts does not mean that it's a great idea to do it. People do really stupid stuff all the time and get away with it, but that's not proof of anything. As Jobst stated, "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." The other issue is that it voids your lifetime frame warranty. As we've seen just in this group, people do occasionally take advantage of that lifetime frame warranty. |
#196
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Bottle holder
On Sunday, May 26, 2019 at 8:41:44 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
On 5/26/2019 3:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip More on Rivnuts: http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut. No one disputes that Rivnuts weaken a frame, it's just a question of how much. It's unclear if that example involved factory install Rivnuts or Rivnuts installed afterward. The latter is much more prone to failure of course, though in most cases you can get away with it, depending on the frame material and how well the drilling and installation was done. The fact that people get away with drilling and installing Rivnuts does not mean that it's a great idea to do it. People do really stupid stuff all the time and get away with it, but that's not proof of anything. As Jobst stated, "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." The other issue is that it voids your lifetime frame warranty. As we've seen just in this group, people do occasionally take advantage of that lifetime frame warranty. You are so full of bull**** it keeps coming out of your mouth/fingers and ends up on this newsgroup. RIVNUTS are NOT difficult to install onto a bicycle frame tube nor do they seriously weaken the frame to do so. Heck man, many even use RIVNUTS on their FRONT FORKS to mount either a low rider rack or water bottles and those don't fail. Cheers |
#197
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Bottle holder
On Sun, 26 May 2019 17:41:38 -0700, sms
wrote: On 5/26/2019 3:23 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote: snip More on Rivnuts: http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut. No one disputes that Rivnuts weaken a frame, it's just a question of how much. It's unclear if that example involved factory install Rivnuts or Rivnuts installed afterward. The latter is much more prone to failure of course, though in most cases you can get away with it, depending on the frame material and how well the drilling and installation was done. The fact that people get away with drilling and installing Rivnuts does not mean that it's a great idea to do it. People do really stupid stuff all the time and get away with it, but that's not proof of anything. As Jobst stated, "I don't know many riders who believe that drilling a hole in a frame tube is a reasonable concept." Yes and Jobst argued that one needed a special tool to install "quick links" even after a number of people informed him that they were able to install and remove quick links with their hands. Your unspoken assertion that somehow someone installing rivnuts on their bike frame are wrong, despite the fact that many factory made bikes come with rivnuts already installed. which is apparently, from your remarks, perfectly all right. The problem with this theory is that the people that make tubes for building bicycle frames don't seem to make special tubes for rivnuts and other tubes for use when rivnuts are not installed. Columbus, for example, in business for a hundred years this year, makes, oh say, SL Niobium, tubes, (Steel triple butted tubes for competition frames). They make a 25.4 top tube, a 28.6 down tube and a 28.6 seat tube, and of course the stays and head tube. That's it. No special tubes to install rivnuts or any warnings about not installing rivnuts. So, is your assertion that one cannot, upon fear of failure, install a rivnut in a Columbus tube frame? And yes, I realize that you have taken your stand, that rivnuts are bad, bad, bad, and believe that it might be a" loss of face" for you to admit that you were wrong, in spite of all the proof supplied that you were, in fact, wrong. But tell me, which is the more stupid act, to agree that you were in the wrong? Or to continue to argue that you were right regardless of how much proof is furnished to the contrary? The other issue is that it voids your lifetime frame warranty. As we've seen just in this group, people do occasionally take advantage of that lifetime frame warranty. Ah yes, a warranty. I can only comment that I have been buying things for a lot of years and I have yet to have to creep back to the maker with a woeful story about how this thing just broke and I want a new one. "Honest mister, I was just standing there and (you'll never believe it) it just broke". -- cheers, John B. |
#198
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Bottle holder
On Mon, 27 May 2019 07:24:56 +0700, John B.
wrote: On Sun, 26 May 2019 15:23:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: More on Rivnuts: http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut. Yup, that's one. If I had my camera I could post you a photo of a bike that must be 15 years old now with rivnuts in the down and seat tubes. No failure yet. The problems start when you drill a hole for Rivnuts on the bottom of the top tube. All the tubes on a bicycle are both in tension and compression depending on weight distribution. However, the down tube sees the most tension which is why it's often a larger diameter than the others. If a Rivnut hole were drilled on the top half of the down tube, the hole would be mostly in compression. As long as there are no sharp burrs around the hole, the Rivnut should be strong enough to resist compression. If there were any failure here, it would be due to buckling, which is unlikely. However, a hole drilled on the bottom of the down tube sees more tension, which tends to create or open cracks along the circumference. The strength of the Rivnut does nothing because there is no pressure on the Rivnut when the down tube is in tension. For strength, the Rivnut might as well be absent. Once a tear or crack starts, it's just a matter of time before the down tube fails at the hole. Fortunately, most water bottle mounts are attached on the inside of the main frame triangle, which is the part that is mostly in compression. What holes in frame tubes under tension do is decrease or remove the safety factor designed into the various tubes. The safety factor varies with class of service. If low weight is paramount, the safety factor will be quite low. If safety and structural integrity is paramount, such as in children's bicycles, the safety factor will be very high. When holes are drilled in such structures, the resultant structures are usually strong enough to support themselves and the rider, but with a lower safety factor. A hard landing or repetitive impacts might exceed this lower safety factor and cause a failure. These will survive if treated gently: http://bicyclepatents.com/a-bad-case-of-drillium/1293/ But never mind the rivnuts the damned front fork broke, and the rims, and what appears to be the bottom bracket. They just don't make them like they used to. For every advancement in bicycle material science, finite element modeling, assembly methods, and testing, there is an equal and opposite tendency to build bicycles as close to the point of failure as possible. The design goal is for everything to fail simultaneously. Otherwise, the surviving components will be deemed "over-built" with an excessive safety margin. -- Jeff Liebermann 150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558 |
#199
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Bottle holder
On 5/26/2019 9:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
The problems start when you drill a hole for Rivnuts on the bottom of the top tube. All the tubes on a bicycle are both in tension and compression depending on weight distribution. However, the down tube sees the most tension which is why it's often a larger diameter than the others. If a Rivnut hole were drilled on the top half of the down tube, the hole would be mostly in compression. As long as there are no sharp burrs around the hole, the Rivnut should be strong enough to resist compression. If there were any failure here, it would be due to buckling, which is unlikely. However, a hole drilled on the bottom of the down tube sees more tension, which tends to create or open cracks along the circumference. Actually, it's not just tension and compression. The down tube, especially, has torsional stresses. That's the real reason for the increased diameter. I'll point out that the only Rivnut failure shown so far had a 45 degree failure line. That's perfectly characteristic of torsion. -- - Frank Krygowski |
#200
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Bottle holder
On 5/26/2019 8:55 PM, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 27 May 2019 07:24:56 +0700, John B. wrote: On Sun, 26 May 2019 15:23:41 -0700, Jeff Liebermann wrote: More on Rivnuts: http://www.pardo.net/bike/pic/fail-001/FAIL-178.html Frame failed at water bottle boss. This is an aluminum frame with a crimp-in "Riv-Nut"-style threaded boss. The frame is drilled and the boss installed; the hole slightly weakens the frame and the crimping creates some local stresses. A typical alternative is to weld in a boss. In some cases, the weakening and stress-riser effects of welding and of the boss section may weaken the frame more than drilling a hole and using a Riv-Nut. Yup, that's one. If I had my camera I could post you a photo of a bike that must be 15 years old now with rivnuts in the down and seat tubes. No failure yet. The problems start when you drill a hole for Rivnuts on the bottom of the top tube. All the tubes on a bicycle are both in tension and compression depending on weight distribution. However, the down tube sees the most tension which is why it's often a larger diameter than the others. If a Rivnut hole were drilled on the top half of the down tube, the hole would be mostly in compression. As long as there are no sharp burrs around the hole, the Rivnut should be strong enough to resist compression. If there were any failure here, it would be due to buckling, which is unlikely. However, a hole drilled on the bottom of the down tube sees more tension, which tends to create or open cracks along the circumference. The strength of the Rivnut does nothing because there is no pressure on the Rivnut when the down tube is in tension. For strength, the Rivnut might as well be absent. Once a tear or crack starts, it's just a matter of time before the down tube fails at the hole. Fortunately, most water bottle mounts are attached on the inside of the main frame triangle, which is the part that is mostly in compression. What holes in frame tubes under tension do is decrease or remove the safety factor designed into the various tubes. The safety factor varies with class of service. If low weight is paramount, the safety factor will be quite low. If safety and structural integrity is paramount, such as in children's bicycles, the safety factor will be very high. When holes are drilled in such structures, the resultant structures are usually strong enough to support themselves and the rider, but with a lower safety factor. A hard landing or repetitive impacts might exceed this lower safety factor and cause a failure. These will survive if treated gently: http://bicyclepatents.com/a-bad-case-of-drillium/1293/ But never mind the rivnuts the damned front fork broke, and the rims, and what appears to be the bottom bracket. They just don't make them like they used to. For every advancement in bicycle material science, finite element modeling, assembly methods, and testing, there is an equal and opposite tendency to build bicycles as close to the point of failure as possible. The design goal is for everything to fail simultaneously. Otherwise, the surviving components will be deemed "over-built" with an excessive safety margin. None of that's wrong but the torsional cyclic forces on a downtube are significant whether the anomaly is top or bottom. -- Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org/ Open every day since 1 April, 1971 |
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