Melbourne, eat your heart out: "Hunter could be the cycling capitalof Australia"

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 4:58:50 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:

I can't wait for the tide to recede because I'm sick of the bicycle traffic. This ain't no Amsterdam, but it's still a f****** conga line of bicycles on some mornings

[If you're} ... riding the speed of traffic. You should not have to be in the bike lane -- or pretend like you're "passing" (bobbing in and out of the bike lane) -- when you're going the speed of traffic.

Old-time Peugeot 10-speed relicts, and modern roadies, don't really want other Americans to cycle unless they can keep up 25mph, i.e. automobile traffic speed. It ain't gonna happen because most wouldbe cyclists can't manage it. And it aint gonna happen because it is pandering to motorized bullies.

It's a valid viewpoint for those who hold it, but it won't promote the cause of cycling.

In civilized countries like The Netherlands, cycle traffic moves at about 15kph/10mph. Quite a bit of German cycle legislation, including the lighting regs, are predicated on a speed of 15kph, said to be a good speed for a housewife with her child and her shopping on the bike.

Andre Jute

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 12:20:12 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 4:58:50 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:



I can't wait for the tide to recede because I'm sick of the bicycle traffic. This ain't no Amsterdam, but it's still a f****** conga line of bicycles on some mornings



[If you're} ... riding the speed of traffic. You should not have to be in the bike lane -- or pretend like you're "passing" (bobbing in and out of the bike lane) -- when you're going the speed of traffic.



Old-time Peugeot 10-speed relicts, and modern roadies, don't really want other Americans to cycle unless they can keep up 25mph, i.e. automobile traffic speed. It ain't gonna happen because most wouldbe cyclists can't manage it. And it aint gonna happen because it is pandering to motorized bullies..



It's a valid viewpoint for those who hold it, but it won't promote the cause of cycling.



In civilized countries like The Netherlands, cycle traffic moves at about 15kph/10mph. Quite a bit of German cycle legislation, including the lighting regs, are predicated on a speed of 15kph, said to be a good speed for a housewife with her child and her shopping on the bike.



Andre Jute

If I was forced by law to ride at a maxinum speed of only 15 kph, I'd move to another are where such a stupid law didn't exist.

I once had a white van try to force me off the road (high curb there though) because it was rush hour and the twit wanted to go faster than the posted 40 KPH limit. I stopped, let him by and then accelerated and used the gentle downward to slope to quickly get to 60 KPH I passed him on his left and he accelrated to pass me. Unfortunately for him as he was gaiing on me the nice police officer in tthe cruiser pulled him over for speeding. The van blocked the officer's view of me which was good because here a police office will ticket a speeding bicyclist. So the driver was doing in excess of 60 KPH in a 40 KPH zone thus I suspect he had a hefty fine and got some demerit points too. Demerit points can cause your insurance rates to go up quite a bit.

I've seen bicyle paths with signs posted saying 20 KPH and I avoid them for that very reason. Leave them to the 'dawdlers" to ride.

Cheers

Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/1/2014 11:01 PM, James wrote:


I caught a young gun at a pedestrian light last week. I got going again
after the lights went green and thought I was going ok at about
35-38km/h. He had a backpack on, so I didn't expect him to blast by me
at near 45km/h to do a turn... but he did.

I was fine sitting on, but wasn't looking forward to doing a comparable
turn of pace. Then lady luck smiled on me. As he stood up for a small
rise, a banana leapt from his back pack and he stopped to go back for it.

I kept going and put some distance between us. Thankfully he never
caught up to me.

I led a ride last week that had a 1.5 mile steep hill. (Well, maybe 6%
grade.) At my age, I decided it was best to just take it easy - or at
least, easier than I used to. One guy motored past me, but downshifted
when the grade increased. It was pleasant to grind on past him, and
pleasant to be 3rd to the top out of about a dozen riders.

But there's no doubt I'm slowing significantly. I can remember helping
one rider, years ago, by pushing her up a long hill. She's now well known
as an excellent climber. It's about time for her to return that favor!

(I'm tempted to remove my 3 pound Carradice bag for the hilly rides. I
think it might get my bike's weight down to 30 pounds.)

30 pounds? For that weight I can take a whole spare bike in my saddle bag
:-). You have to raise your standards Frank.

http://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-sL...G_2338-001.JPG

http://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-9a...G_2337-001.JPG



--
Lou

On 9/2/2014 11:58 AM, jbeattie wrote:

You'll love this morning's conflict: I'm in the traffic lane, and there's a bike lane
next to me that is about to end. I'm passing the conga line of
cyclists. When the
lane ends, the riders in the bike lane just cut to the left and
practically in to me.
Then I jam on my brakes because some pedestrian has dipped his toe in to
traffic, and
all the cars stopped (mid block, not at a light -- we have all these
mid-block cross
walks for no apparent reason). Some cyclist behind me tells me to watch
out. I figure
that I'm in the lane; the bike lane is ending, and cyclists have to
merge like any other
traffic, and I'm traffic.

I understand. I think there are lots of cyclists who think that with
enough facilities, bikes in use, or whatever, all will be peace, love
and perfect harmony. They think that despite the experiences we've all
had on MUPs, or the experiences you've had in PDX.

There are many who tout the "8 to 80" principle of bike facilities,
claiming that facilities will be so wonderful that daydreaming kids and
doddering grandparents can use them with ease. But ISTM that most
facilities I've seen actually add to the complexity of road
interactions. For example:

The June 2013 (#23) issue of Bicycling Times magazine had an article by
Carolyn Szczepanski titled "Staying Safe in Protected Bike Lanes."
The author is Communications Director for the League of American
Bicyclists.

She began by describing her serious crash with a pedestrian in a
Washington DC cycletrack. Eventually, the article went on to list
caution after caution for cyclists using these "safer" facilities:

Slow down at any place pedestrians may be tempted to cross;
Slow down at intersections, because you're often "outside the position
cars might expect me on the road";
Use bright colors to make yourself as visible as possible;
Cover your brakes to be ready to stop at any intersection;
Look all around you - including backwards to the right - at any
intersection;
Never disobey any traffic signal [even those that give bikes a red
when all other traffic has a green];
If the signals are confusing, look for a sign telling you what to do;
Use "box turns" [two stage turns] when they are easiest;
Give other cyclists a safe berth;
And don't try to get anywhere fast. "If you're intent on racing home
as quickly as possible, choose a different route."

Well, I can agree with the final tip, if it means "avoid using the
cycle track."

If the promised facilities nirvana does ever arrive, we'll have to
evolve a whole new set of rules and social customs to survived it!


Who knows, though -- because we have to look at the rules applicable to over-taking
vehicles (me), which I'm too lazy to read this morning.

One problem with our bike lane law is that you have to be in the bike lane unless
your passing another bike or some other exception applies, which doesn't
including
riding the speed of traffic. You should not have to be in the bike lane
-- or pretend
like you're "passing" (bobbing in and out of the bike lane) -- when
you're going
the speed of traffic.

I heartily agree. Incidentally, I think that same logic should apply to
the general "as far right as practicable" provision in almost all
states' vehicle codes. If I'm as fast as other vehicles, or if I'm the
only vehicle around, why should I stay AFRAP?


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 9/2/2014 2:19 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

I've seen bicyle paths with signs posted saying 20 KPH and I avoid
them for that very reason. Leave them to the 'dawdlers" to ride.

We've got one MUP that's labeled "Bicycle Speed Limit 10 mph." This is
a section of park roadway, 18 feet wide, closed off to motor vehicles.

It's kind of interesting that the speed limit doesn't apply to
rollerbladers or runners, both of whom can easily exceed it.

For a while, the park police actually set up radar. I knew a guy who
they tried to pull over, using their little scooter car. Not only did
he refuse to pull over, he outran the cop's little car and rode away.

Not that I condone such scofflaw behavior, of course! ;-)


--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 7:19:38 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 12:20:12 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 4:58:50 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:







I can't wait for the tide to recede because I'm sick of the bicycle traffic. This ain't no Amsterdam, but it's still a f****** conga line of bicycles on some mornings







[If you're} ... riding the speed of traffic. You should not have to be in the bike lane -- or pretend like you're "passing" (bobbing in and out of the bike lane) -- when you're going the speed of traffic.







Old-time Peugeot 10-speed relicts, and modern roadies, don't really want other Americans to cycle unless they can keep up 25mph, i.e. automobile traffic speed. It ain't gonna happen because most wouldbe cyclists can't manage it. And it aint gonna happen because it is pandering to motorized bullies.







It's a valid viewpoint for those who hold it, but it won't promote the cause of cycling.







In civilized countries like The Netherlands, cycle traffic moves at about 15kph/10mph. Quite a bit of German cycle legislation, including the lighting regs, are predicated on a speed of 15kph, said to be a good speed for a housewife with her child and her shopping on the bike.







Andre Jute



If I was forced by law to ride at a maxinum speed of only 15 kph, I'd move to another are where such a stupid law didn't exist.

No, Ridealot, I didn't say anything about the Dutch or the Germans being forced to ride at 15kph. What I said was that many German laws/rules/regulations as their underlying assumption contain a (well-found) belief that folk left to themselves will progress at a median speed of 15kph on their bicycles.

The people on RBT are outliers, man.

I once had a white van try to force me off the road (high curb there though) because it was rush hour and the twit wanted to go faster than the posted 40 KPH limit. I stopped, let him by and then accelerated and used the gentle downward to slope to quickly get to 60 KPH I passed him on his left and he accelrated to pass me. Unfortunately for him as he was gaiing on me the nice police officer in tthe cruiser pulled him over for speeding. The van blocked the officer's view of me which was good because here a police office will ticket a speeding bicyclist. So the driver was doing in excess of 60 KPH in a 40 KPH zone thus I suspect he had a hefty fine and got some demerit points too. Demerit points can cause your insurance rates to go up quite a bit.

Good for you!

I've seen bicyle paths with signs posted saying 20 KPH and I avoid them for that very reason. Leave them to the 'dawdlers" to ride.

We have a multiuse path on the track of an old railroad but cyclists are not required to use it. I generally do, for the excellent views you don't get on the main drag below it, but I slow down over it becasue there are always pedestrians walking their dogs. It won't be a fun ride for roadies, I don't think.

Andre Jute

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 11:39:53 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2014 11:58 AM, jbeattie wrote:



You'll love this morning's conflict: I'm in the traffic lane, and there's a bike lane

next to me that is about to end. I'm passing the conga line of

cyclists. When the

lane ends, the riders in the bike lane just cut to the left and

practically in to me.

Then I jam on my brakes because some pedestrian has dipped his toe in to

traffic, and

all the cars stopped (mid block, not at a light -- we have all these

mid-block cross

walks for no apparent reason). Some cyclist behind me tells me to watch

out. I figure

that I'm in the lane; the bike lane is ending, and cyclists have to

merge like any other

traffic, and I'm traffic.



I understand. I think there are lots of cyclists who think that with

enough facilities, bikes in use, or whatever, all will be peace, love

and perfect harmony. They think that despite the experiences we've all

had on MUPs, or the experiences you've had in PDX.



There are many who tout the "8 to 80" principle of bike facilities,

claiming that facilities will be so wonderful that daydreaming kids and

doddering grandparents can use them with ease. But ISTM that most

facilities I've seen actually add to the complexity of road

interactions. For example:



The June 2013 (#23) issue of Bicycling Times magazine had an article by

Carolyn Szczepanski titled "Staying Safe in Protected Bike Lanes."

The author is Communications Director for the League of American

Bicyclists.



She began by describing her serious crash with a pedestrian in a

Washington DC cycletrack. Eventually, the article went on to list

caution after caution for cyclists using these "safer" facilities:



Slow down at any place pedestrians may be tempted to cross;

Slow down at intersections, because you're often "outside the position

cars might expect me on the road";

Use bright colors to make yourself as visible as possible;

Cover your brakes to be ready to stop at any intersection;

Look all around you - including backwards to the right - at any

intersection;

Never disobey any traffic signal [even those that give bikes a red

when all other traffic has a green];

If the signals are confusing, look for a sign telling you what to do;

Use "box turns" [two stage turns] when they are easiest;

Give other cyclists a safe berth;

And don't try to get anywhere fast. "If you're intent on racing home

as quickly as possible, choose a different route."



Well, I can agree with the final tip, if it means "avoid using the

cycle track."



If the promised facilities nirvana does ever arrive, we'll have to

evolve a whole new set of rules and social customs to survived it!





Who knows, though -- because we have to look at the rules applicable to over-taking

vehicles (me), which I'm too lazy to read this morning.



One problem with our bike lane law is that you have to be in the bike lane unless

your passing another bike or some other exception applies, which doesn't

including

riding the speed of traffic. You should not have to be in the bike lane

-- or pretend

like you're "passing" (bobbing in and out of the bike lane) -- when

you're going

the speed of traffic.



I heartily agree. Incidentally, I think that same logic should apply to

the general "as far right as practicable" provision in almost all

states' vehicle codes. If I'm as fast as other vehicles, or if I'm the

only vehicle around, why should I stay AFRAP?

That exception is in Oregon's VC, but not one of the listed exceptions to the bicycle lane law. So, it's O.K. to be traveling the speed of traffic in traffic when there is no bike lane, but not when there is a bike lane -- unless you're passing or some other exception applies (hazards, preparing to turn, etc.).

-- Jay Beattie.

Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 7:19:38 PM UTC+1, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 12:20:12 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 4:58:50 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:







I can't wait for the tide to recede because I'm sick of the bicycle
traffic. This ain't no Amsterdam, but it's still a f****** conga line
of bicycles on some mornings







[If you're} ... riding the speed of traffic. You should not have to be
in the bike lane -- or pretend like you're "passing" (bobbing in and
out of the bike lane) -- when you're going the speed of traffic.







Old-time Peugeot 10-speed relicts, and modern roadies, don't really
want other Americans to cycle unless they can keep up 25mph, i.e.
automobile traffic speed. It ain't gonna happen because most wouldbe
cyclists can't manage it. And it aint gonna happen because it is
pandering to motorized bullies.







It's a valid viewpoint for those who hold it, but it won't promote the cause of cycling.







In civilized countries like The Netherlands, cycle traffic moves at
about 15kph/10mph. Quite a bit of German cycle legislation, including
the lighting regs, are predicated on a speed of 15kph, said to be a
good speed for a housewife with her child and her shopping on the bike.







Andre Jute



If I was forced by law to ride at a maxinum speed of only 15 kph, I'd
move to another are where such a stupid law didn't exist.

No, Ridealot, I didn't say anything about the Dutch or the Germans being
forced to ride at 15kph. What I said was that many German
laws/rules/regulations as their underlying assumption contain a
(well-found) belief that folk left to themselves will progress at a
median speed of 15kph on their bicycles.

The people on RBT are outliers, man.

I once had a white van try to force me off the road (high curb there
though) because it was rush hour and the twit wanted to go faster than
the posted 40 KPH limit. I stopped, let him by and then accelerated and
used the gentle downward to slope to quickly get to 60 KPH I passed him
on his left and he accelrated to pass me. Unfortunately for him as he
was gaiing on me the nice police officer in tthe cruiser pulled him over
for speeding. The van blocked the officer's view of me which was good
because here a police office will ticket a speeding bicyclist. So the
driver was doing in excess of 60 KPH in a 40 KPH zone thus I suspect he
had a hefty fine and got some demerit points too. Demerit points can
cause your insurance rates to go up quite a bit.

Good for you!

I've seen bicyle paths with signs posted saying 20 KPH and I avoid them
for that very reason. Leave them to the 'dawdlers" to ride.

We have a multiuse path on the track of an old railroad but cyclists are
not required to use it. I generally do, for the excellent views you don't
get on the main drag below it, but I slow down over it becasue there are
always pedestrians walking their dogs. It won't be a fun ride for roadies, I don't think.


Hey some roadies like nice views too. We have Le Petit Train du Nord trail
here.
http://gobiking.ca/p-tit-train/

The bottom half is gravel and is tough with a road bike but the top half is
paved.



--
duane

Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 12:20:12 PM UTC-4, Andre Jute wrote:
On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 4:58:50 PM UTC+1, jbeattie wrote:



I can't wait for the tide to recede because I'm sick of the bicycle
traffic. This ain't no Amsterdam, but it's still a f****** conga line
of bicycles on some mornings



[If you're} ... riding the speed of traffic. You should not have to be
in the bike lane -- or pretend like you're "passing" (bobbing in and
out of the bike lane) -- when you're going the speed of traffic.



Old-time Peugeot 10-speed relicts, and modern roadies, don't really want
other Americans to cycle unless they can keep up 25mph, i.e. automobile
traffic speed. It ain't gonna happen because most wouldbe cyclists can't
manage it. And it aint gonna happen because it is pandering to motorized bullies.



It's a valid viewpoint for those who hold it, but it won't promote the cause of cycling.



In civilized countries like The Netherlands, cycle traffic moves at
about 15kph/10mph. Quite a bit of German cycle legislation, including
the lighting regs, are predicated on a speed of 15kph, said to be a good
speed for a housewife with her child and her shopping on the bike.



Andre Jute

If I was forced by law to ride at a maxinum speed of only 15 kph, I'd
move to another are where such a stupid law didn't exist.

I once had a white van try to force me off the road (high curb there
though) because it was rush hour and the twit wanted to go faster than
the posted 40 KPH limit. I stopped, let him by and then accelerated and
used the gentle downward to slope to quickly get to 60 KPH I passed him
on his left and he accelrated to pass me. Unfortunately for him as he was
gaiing on me the nice police officer in tthe cruiser pulled him over for
speeding. The van blocked the officer's view of me which was good because
here a police office will ticket a speeding bicyclist. So the driver was
doing in excess of 60 KPH in a 40 KPH zone thus I suspect he had a hefty
fine and got some demerit points too. Demerit points can cause your
insurance rates to go up quite a bit.

I've seen bicyle paths with signs posted saying 20 KPH and I avoid them
for that very reason. Leave them to the 'dawdlers" to ride.

Cheers

All bike paths in Quebec have 20kph limits but the vehicle code
specifically states that their usage isn't mandatory. So in effect they
keep slower riders off the road.

BTW had a nice Labor Day ride in eastern Toronto. If you get a chance to
visit Champlain L'Orignal area you should try it.
--
duane

On Tuesday, September 2, 2014 11:49:04 AM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 9/2/2014 2:19 PM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:



I've seen bicyle paths with signs posted saying 20 KPH and I avoid

them for that very reason. Leave them to the 'dawdlers" to ride.



We've got one MUP that's labeled "Bicycle Speed Limit 10 mph." This is

a section of park roadway, 18 feet wide, closed off to motor vehicles.



It's kind of interesting that the speed limit doesn't apply to

rollerbladers or runners, both of whom can easily exceed it.



For a while, the park police actually set up radar. I knew a guy who

they tried to pull over, using their little scooter car. Not only did

he refuse to pull over, he outran the cop's little car and rode away.



Not that I condone such scofflaw behavior, of course! ;-)


One MUP I take has a posted limit: http://tinyurl.com/pcsmxjw The sign facing away notes a 10mph limit -- no enforcement, except by irate runners (running four abreast with six dogs, three baby joggers -- and all with earbuds and iPods (including the babies and dogs)). I take that MUP when I'm sick of every other commute route option, and usually during fall/winter, when the runners have retreated to the gym. It is on the far end of another "state of the art" bicycle facility in South Waterfront, where it is possible to get in to a collision with another cyclist, pedestrian, train, bus and aerial tram -- all at the same time. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2HpCGyr61Do

-- Jay Beattie.