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#21
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 19:11:49 +0000, mark wrote:
Set wrote: Indeed. Some cities even plan for sidewalk riding both directions. (the sidewalks are double wide). Not very clever, imo, but still they're out there. www.vbgov.com/dept/parks/pdfs/dsgndev/bikeplanfacilitystandards.pdf (page 6) This is exactly what my town does, a double width shared use path on either side of a 4 lane thoroughfare. I ride in the roadway next to it to get to work. Well, building "bike paths" alongside a road is a good way to get TEA grants to pay for sidewalks! We have a situation like that too. More than one traffic engineer has admitted to me that they would rather have narrower sidewalks, with the extra width devoted to wide outside traffic lanes for cyclists. Matt O. |
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#22
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
Aren't sidewalks omnidirectional? Can you walk the wrong
direction on a sidewalk too? I see no problem with traveling at walking speed on the sidewalk. The problem is when one exceeds that speed one becomes a hazard. Ted. |
#23
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
"Ted" wrote: (clip) I see no problem with traveling at walking speed on the sidewalk. The problem is when one exceeds that speed one becomes a hazard. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Part of the enjoyment if posting and reading here is the exploration of hypothetical side issues. It is in that spirit that I bring this up: Would a "pedestrian" running at, say, 10 mph be breaking the law? If he ran into a little old lady, knocking her down, with resulting serious head injury, would he be guilty of a crime? Would this be worse than having a cyclist do the same thing? |
#24
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
Leo Lichtman wrote: "Ted" wrote: (clip) I see no problem with traveling at walking speed on the sidewalk. The problem is when one exceeds that speed one becomes a hazard. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Part of the enjoyment if posting and reading here is the exploration of hypothetical side issues. It is in that spirit that I bring this up: Would a "pedestrian" running at, say, 10 mph be breaking the law? Probably not breaking a specific law, in most cases. If he ran into a little old lady, knocking her down, with resulting serious head injury, would he be guilty of a crime? IMNAL, but ISTM there might be some "public endangerment" statute that could come into play, depending on the jurisdiction. Would this be worse than having a cyclist do the same thing? If both were at exactly 10 mph, it would probably be no worse - or negligibly worse. But there are differences. Part of the difference is that bikes can easily exceed the speed of runners. Thus, bike-ped impacts can easily be worse than ped-ped impacts. Another difference is that bikes are not as maneurverable as peds. A runner can stop or dodge sideways far easier than a cyclist. And those factors affect the cyclist's danger. Specifically, there are many situations where a normal-speed cyclist on a sidewalk can be hurt by a driver he's surprised. That can occur at any driveway crossing the sidewalk, or at any crosswalk the cyclist enters from the sidewalk. This doesn't mean that no cyclist can ever safely use any sidewalk. It does mean, however, that there are many cyclists thinking they're perfectly safe on the sidewalk, whereas they are actually in greater danger than if they rode properly on the street. IIRC, Wachtel, A., & Lewiston, D. (1994). Risk factors for bicycle-motor vehicle collisions at intersections. I T E Journal, 64(9), 30-35 is one paper that addresses this. - Frank Krygowski |
#25
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
On 3 Oct 2006 18:36:21 -0700, against all advice, something
compelled "Ted" , to say: I see no problem with traveling at walking speed on the sidewalk. You mean besides being rude beyond belief? |
#26
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
wrote: landotter wrote: Your girlfriend derserves every single citation she gets, even a "reckless driving" charge would be in order. Sidewalks are for *walking*. Duh. Streets are for vehicles. Brilliant way to get yourself killed is to zoom through an intersection wrong way when riding on the sidewalk. It's not funny or "aw, man, it's no biggie", nope, it's just downright stupid. It's about 5 notches of stupid above driving drunk. This is of course assuming you're over 12 years old. In many jurisdictions you may ride your "My little pony" bmx bike on the sidewalk if you're under that age, and by the sound of things you may be able to argue with a judge that you're 10--on an emotional level. Damn, give it a rest you ninnies. Sidewalk riding is no more dangerous than any other kind of riding, provided the cyclist recognizes the particular hazards involved. We all ride on sidewalks occasionally. That's part of the beauty of the bicycle, the ability to outperform in the pedestrian as well as vehicle realms. If you never ride sidewalks, you simply aren't riding enough. Scratch the surface of those who give anti-sidewalk speeches and you will find cyclists who occasionally ride sidewalks, when it is useful to them. You see, it's ok for them, the self-righteous safety ninnie, to do it, but not for anyone else. To the OP, I'm sorry you got rudely kneejerked on this newsgroup, you aren't the first. The cop was wrong, unless perhaps he observed her riding in a way that was particulary dangerous, besides her simply riding wrong way on the sidewalk, maybe he saw her cut somebody off or just looking particularly oblivious. Robert I appreciate your courtesy Robert. And perhaps I should clarify a few things. First of all I'll post a link to the most recent Minnesota Statutes on Bicycle Operations (2005): http://ros.leg.mn/stats/169/222.html Second, maybe the circumstances under which my girlfriend was pulled over. It was late at night, about 1:00am on a Monday night/Tuesday morning. There was little or no traffic on the roads, or pedestrians on the sidewalks. This area was a residential area. The sidewalk she was riding on runs parallel to a one way street. There is a bike lane on this one-way street, but it runs with the traffic. So my girlfriend was, in effect, biking on the sidewalk in the opposite direction in which the one-way street traffic is going. Hmm, maybe I can get a neat visual: __________________________________________________ ______ ------------------One Way Street -- -- -- ---------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ ______ ___________Bike Lane -- -- --____________________________ __________________________________________________ ______ __________Side Walk___________ -- -- -- My GF ___________ These were the circumstances under which my girlfriend was pulled over. And I'm pretty sure that she has not been the only one to ride her bike in this fashion. This street is near the university, and I see countles people riding their bikes, in the same fashion as my girlfriend did, in the day and night. I seriously doubt that any cyclists, if not very few, have been pulled over for these reasons. I really think the cop was bored, or ignorant, and pulled her over for the wrong reasons. Third, I would like to explain what the cop said my girlfriend should do instead of riding on the sidewalk. He said that she needed to ride on a street that ran parallel to this street, but one block to the north. Now, there isn't a bicycle path on this street, and most likely she would have to ride on the street with the cars (I believe this street goes through a business district that doesn't allow bike riding on the sidewalks, so she would have to either ride in the street, or walk her bike on the sidewalk and if she does that she might as well just walk home). Personally I don't like this. I feel much safer riding a bicycle on the sidewalk. There have been countless times when I have been riding on a bicycle lane or street and a car making a right turn pulls out in front of me and slows down to turn forcing me to break quickly or hit the car. I have also had many occasions where traffic has forced me to ride dangerously close to parked cars, and I have been clipped by a person opening their car door. It was not cool. I have not had near as many of these close calls when riding on the sidewalk, and I don't think anyone could convince me that riding on the street is safer than riding on the sidewalk. Next, I have to agree with Ted who also wrote on here (Thank you). I am pretty sure that sidewalks cannot be one-directional. It would seem silly to have one-way sidewalks. Last I would like to comment on the issue of biking at sidewalks at a walker's speed. If we did say it was ok to bike at a walker's speed, then what about the joggers (I'm agreeing with Leo here)? Would they have to jog on the road? Would there have to be speed limits put on sidewalks? I don't think any city would spend the resources for creating and enforcing city-wide sidewalk speed limits. Ok that is all I wanted to write for now. I appreciate all the responses, they have given me a lot to think about. Please comment more. This discussion has gotten me so excited, I think I want to buy a light and a bell for my bike. XD -Xtowers |
#27
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
Steve Daniels wrote:
On 3 Oct 2006 18:36:21 -0700, against all advice, something compelled "Ted" , to say: I see no problem with traveling at walking speed on the sidewalk. You mean besides being rude beyond belief? 'rude beyond belief'? Blowing snot on the donuts is rude beyond belief. Sidewalk riding is something that can be/is done safely and with consideration every day, even by those who give speeches against it. Sidewalks are extremely useful if you know how to use them. Robert |
#28
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
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#29
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
landotter wrote:
Xtowers wrote: It was kind of funny. I got a call from my girlfriend, and she told me that she was pulled over by a cop on her bike. The cop said that it was illegal to bike against traffic, which made sense to me. The thing that didn't make sense was that she was biking on a sidewalk, not the road. This got me a little interested in the bicycle operation laws of Minneapolis, Minnesota, where I live. I looked through the Minnesota statutes, which said that it is illegal to bike against traffic. However, all those laws applied to only the road, and not specifically sidewalks. My girlfriend was also biking in an area where it was o.k. to bike on the sidewalk, i.e. not a business district. So I was wondering if this is as strange to others as it is to me. I have never heard of a cop pulling over a bicyclist for biking against traffic while on a sidewalk. I'm thinking that this cop was having a slow night. I don't think I'll stop biking against traffic while on a sidewalk, and if I do get stopped I think I will bring up this issue with the peace officer who thinks I am doing wrong. I think before I do that, though, I'll have to make sure I'm up to code on all the other bicycle laws that I found out I was breaking while reading the statutes. XD Your girlfriend derserves every single citation she gets, even a "reckless driving" charge would be in order. Sidewalks are for *walking*. Duh. Streets are for vehicles. Brilliant way to get yourself killed is to zoom through an intersection wrong way when riding on the sidewalk. It's not funny or "aw, man, it's no biggie", nope, it's just downright stupid. It's about 5 notches of stupid above driving drunk. This is of course assuming you're over 12 years old. In many jurisdictions you may ride your "My little pony" bmx bike on the sidewalk if you're under that age, and by the sound of things you may be able to argue with a judge that you're 10--on an emotional level. Lighten up. If she has any smarts she pushes the button and walks the bike like a good pedestrian. I do that sometimes where the sidewalk is the safest place to be, but always under 10 MPH. Bill Baka |
#30
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Is it illegal to bike against traffic on a sidewalk?
Xtowers wrote:
wrote: landotter wrote: Your girlfriend derserves every single citation she gets, even a "reckless driving" charge would be in order. Sidewalks are for *walking*. Duh. Streets are for vehicles. Brilliant way to get yourself killed is to zoom through an intersection wrong way when riding on the sidewalk. It's not funny or "aw, man, it's no biggie", nope, it's just downright stupid. It's about 5 notches of stupid above driving drunk. This is of course assuming you're over 12 years old. In many jurisdictions you may ride your "My little pony" bmx bike on the sidewalk if you're under that age, and by the sound of things you may be able to argue with a judge that you're 10--on an emotional level. Damn, give it a rest you ninnies. Sidewalk riding is no more dangerous than any other kind of riding, provided the cyclist recognizes the particular hazards involved. We all ride on sidewalks occasionally. That's part of the beauty of the bicycle, the ability to outperform in the pedestrian as well as vehicle realms. If you never ride sidewalks, you simply aren't riding enough. Scratch the surface of those who give anti-sidewalk speeches and you will find cyclists who occasionally ride sidewalks, when it is useful to them. You see, it's ok for them, the self-righteous safety ninnie, to do it, but not for anyone else. To the OP, I'm sorry you got rudely kneejerked on this newsgroup, you aren't the first. The cop was wrong, unless perhaps he observed her riding in a way that was particulary dangerous, besides her simply riding wrong way on the sidewalk, maybe he saw her cut somebody off or just looking particularly oblivious. Robert I appreciate your courtesy Robert. And perhaps I should clarify a few things. First of all I'll post a link to the most recent Minnesota Statutes on Bicycle Operations (2005): http://ros.leg.mn/stats/169/222.html Second, maybe the circumstances under which my girlfriend was pulled over. It was late at night, about 1:00am on a Monday night/Tuesday morning. There was little or no traffic on the roads, or pedestrians on the sidewalks. This area was a residential area. The sidewalk she was riding on runs parallel to a one way street. There is a bike lane on this one-way street, but it runs with the traffic. So my girlfriend was, in effect, biking on the sidewalk in the opposite direction in which the one-way street traffic is going. Hmm, maybe I can get a neat visual: __________________________________________________ ______ ------------------One Way Street -- -- -- ---------------------------------------- __________________________________________________ ______ ___________Bike Lane -- -- --____________________________ __________________________________________________ ______ __________Side Walk___________ -- -- -- My GF ___________ These were the circumstances under which my girlfriend was pulled over. And I'm pretty sure that she has not been the only one to ride her bike in this fashion. This street is near the university, and I see countles people riding their bikes, in the same fashion as my girlfriend did, in the day and night. I seriously doubt that any cyclists, if not very few, have been pulled over for these reasons. I really think the cop was bored, or ignorant, and pulled her over for the wrong reasons. Now I am convinced the cop was just an anal asshole. The bike lane would have been against traffic too so what was she supposed to do, walk the wrong way? Third, I would like to explain what the cop said my girlfriend should do instead of riding on the sidewalk. He said that she needed to ride on a street that ran parallel to this street, but one block to the north. Now, there isn't a bicycle path on this street, and most likely she would have to ride on the street with the cars (I believe this street goes through a business district that doesn't allow bike riding on the sidewalks, so she would have to either ride in the street, or walk her bike on the sidewalk and if she does that she might as well just walk home). Personally I don't like this. I feel much safer riding a bicycle on the sidewalk. There have been countless times when I have been riding on a bicycle lane or street and a car making a right turn pulls out in front of me and slows down to turn forcing me to break quickly or hit the car. I have also had many occasions where traffic has forced me to ride dangerously close to parked cars, and I have been clipped by a person opening their car door. It was not cool. I have not had near as many of these close calls when riding on the sidewalk, and I don't think anyone could convince me that riding on the street is safer than riding on the sidewalk. If it is 1:00 in the morning I am damn well going to be on the sidewalk at all times it is possible. That is prime time for drunk drivers and the next road over would have put her on the actual pavement with them. Next, I have to agree with Ted who also wrote on here (Thank you). I am pretty sure that sidewalks cannot be one-directional. It would seem silly to have one-way sidewalks. Last I would like to comment on the issue of biking at sidewalks at a walker's speed. If we did say it was ok to bike at a walker's speed, then what about the joggers (I'm agreeing with Leo here)? Would they have to jog on the road? Would there have to be speed limits put on sidewalks? I don't think any city would spend the resources for creating and enforcing city-wide sidewalk speed limits. Ok that is all I wanted to write for now. I appreciate all the responses, they have given me a lot to think about. Please comment more. This discussion has gotten me so excited, I think I want to buy a light and a bell for my bike. XD -Xtowers I agree with you that if a slow bike ride gets her pulled over then there should be no tolerance for those ignorant wrong way joggers. Bill Baka |
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