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#1 flaw in hydrogen future
Loved the Hydrogen Economy Out of Reach Article - Thanks Jack.
I forgot where I read it, but the following is what I see as why a "hydrogen future" just doesn't make sense. 1. The most valuable form of energy is electricity. That is why we burn oil (an incredible raw material for manufacturing) to make electricity. 2. Turning electricity into hydrogen (or vice-versa), wastes at least a fourth of this energy each way. So making electricity into hydrogen and back again loses nearly half the energy, not including all the losses of building and maintaining a hydrogen transportation system, or building and maintaining the vehicles, and their streets, support services, etc. Or you could just use the electricity to power streetcar networks. By the way, you could construct an urban micro rail system (think bumper cars, only bigger) that emulates the private auto. Base it on Europe's Stratauto neighborhood rental system. You punch up a screen on your cell phone and order up a car of choice. It pulls up to meet you at the corner, and off you go. You and your passengers punch in and share - being charged by the minute. I say by the minute instead of the mile because this provides a disincentive to travel during rush hours. This also eliminates all the energy, money and space wasted on 200 million cars sitting around 23 hours a day rusting. There are lots of answers, but they all involve using 80% less energy to build and maintain vehicles and get around. Translate this as less money for industry. The real lesson is carrying 100 kilo people around individually in 2,000 kilo vehicles isn't sustainable. As to the fact that wind power (the only truly viable alternative) is isolated in northern and coastal areas, it would be more efficient to build solar panels there and ship them south. -- Robert Haston Satellite Beach, FL |
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It is the most explosive gas known.
The flame is invisible. To store it at a Gas station, it must be liquefied, -253 degree C. A small spark at a station would take out the Block in less than a second. "Robert Haston" wrote in message .net... Loved the Hydrogen Economy Out of Reach Article - Thanks Jack. I forgot where I read it, but the following is what I see as why a "hydrogen future" just doesn't make sense. 1. The most valuable form of energy is electricity. That is why we burn oil (an incredible raw material for manufacturing) to make electricity. 2. Turning electricity into hydrogen (or vice-versa), wastes at least a fourth of this energy each way. So making electricity into hydrogen and back again loses nearly half the energy, not including all the losses of building and maintaining a hydrogen transportation system, or building and maintaining the vehicles, and their streets, support services, etc. Or you could just use the electricity to power streetcar networks. By the way, you could construct an urban micro rail system (think bumper cars, only bigger) that emulates the private auto. Base it on Europe's Stratauto neighborhood rental system. You punch up a screen on your cell phone and order up a car of choice. It pulls up to meet you at the corner, and off you go. You and your passengers punch in and share - being charged by the minute. I say by the minute instead of the mile because this provides a disincentive to travel during rush hours. This also eliminates all the energy, money and space wasted on 200 million cars sitting around 23 hours a day rusting. There are lots of answers, but they all involve using 80% less energy to build and maintain vehicles and get around. Translate this as less money for industry. The real lesson is carrying 100 kilo people around individually in 2,000 kilo vehicles isn't sustainable. As to the fact that wind power (the only truly viable alternative) is isolated in northern and coastal areas, it would be more efficient to build solar panels there and ship them south. -- Robert Haston Satellite Beach, FL |
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It is the most explosive gas known.
=v= Gasoline isn't exactly unexplosive. Hydrogen at least goes up, whereas gasoline vapors are heavy and spreads flames around. _Jym_ |
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"Jym Dyer" wrote in message ... It is the most explosive gas known. =v= Gasoline isn't exactly unexplosive. Hydrogen at least goes up, whereas gasoline vapors are heavy and spreads flames around. _Jym_ A common misperception. Hydrogen goes up when in a balloon. When released as a gas, it mixes instantly with air spreading outward, with some upward. This is very fast as the molecule is the smallest of the gasses. They fully tested Hydrogen as a fuel in the early 80's, and found that it was simply too dangerous for the general public to handle. Good for fuel cells on the space shuttle. |
#5
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"tellex" writes:
"Jym Dyer" wrote in message ... It is the most explosive gas known. =v= Gasoline isn't exactly unexplosive. Hydrogen at least goes up, whereas gasoline vapors are heavy and spreads flames around. _Jym_ A common misperception. Hydrogen goes up when in a balloon. When released as a gas, it mixes instantly with air spreading outward, with some upward. This is very fast as the molecule is the smallest of the gasses. They fully tested Hydrogen as a fuel in the early 80's, and found that it was simply too dangerous for the general public to handle. Good for fuel cells on the space shuttle. Apparently some people disagree with you. See http://www.hydrogenus.com/newsletter/ad32btob.htm http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/codes/ http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/hysafety/hysafety.htm http://energy.inel.gov/fossil/hydrogen/pdf/h2safetyreport.pdf Note that most of the above are links to government sites. BTW, one of these URLs claims that hydrogen is less dangerous to handle than propane. -- My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB |
#6
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"Bill Z." wrote in message ... "tellex" writes: "Jym Dyer" wrote in message ... It is the most explosive gas known. =v= Gasoline isn't exactly unexplosive. Hydrogen at least goes up, whereas gasoline vapors are heavy and spreads flames around. _Jym_ A common misperception. Hydrogen goes up when in a balloon. When released as a gas, it mixes instantly with air spreading outward, with some upward. This is very fast as the molecule is the smallest of the gasses. They fully tested Hydrogen as a fuel in the early 80's, and found that it was simply too dangerous for the general public to handle. Good for fuel cells on the space shuttle. Apparently some people disagree with you. See http://www.hydrogenus.com/newsletter/ad32btob.htm http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/codes/ http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/hysafety/hysafety.htm http://energy.inel.gov/fossil/hydrogen/pdf/h2safetyreport.pdf Note that most of the above are links to government sites. BTW, one of these URLs claims that hydrogen is less dangerous to handle than propane. You should read the links you posted,especially the last link, Table 1-1 Preliminary hazards list for hydrogen, is 4 pages long. Good luck, it is a long way off. |
#7
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"tellex" writes:
"Bill Z." wrote in message ... "tellex" writes: Apparently some people disagree with you. See http://www.hydrogenus.com/newsletter/ad32btob.htm http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/codes/ http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/hysafety/hysafety.htm http://energy.inel.gov/fossil/hydrogen/pdf/h2safetyreport.pdf Note that most of the above are links to government sites. BTW, one of these URLs claims that hydrogen is less dangerous to handle than propane. You should read the links you posted,especially the last link, Table 1-1 Preliminary hazards list for hydrogen, is 4 pages long. Good luck, it is a long way off. Try page 69, which says, "With proper precautions, hydrogen can be handled safely. No safety issues are forsee that would warrant cessation of hydrogen use as a vehicle fuel." Maybe you should read the damn thing before making a fool of yourself by speculating on other individuals' reading habits. -- My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB |
#8
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Bill Z. wrote:
"tellex" writes: "Bill Z." wrote in message ... "tellex" writes: Apparently some people disagree with you. See http://www.hydrogenus.com/newsletter/ad32btob.htm http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/codes/ http://www.hydrogenhighway.ca.gov/hysafety/hysafety.htm http://energy.inel.gov/fossil/hydrogen/pdf/h2safetyreport.pdf Note that most of the above are links to government sites. BTW, one of these URLs claims that hydrogen is less dangerous to handle than propane. You should read the links you posted,especially the last link, Table 1-1 Preliminary hazards list for hydrogen, is 4 pages long. Good luck, it is a long way off. Try page 69, which says, "With proper precautions, hydrogen can be handled safely. No safety issues are forsee that would warrant cessation of hydrogen use as a vehicle fuel." Maybe you should read the damn thing before making a fool of yourself by speculating on other individuals' reading habits. No kidding, NASA has been using this as a vehicular fuel for decades and they've had only a few accidents. I'm sure this can be made foolproof to the degree that even teens couldn't screw it up, if they put their best effort into it. Jack Dingler |
#9
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"Jack Dingler" wrote in message newsM3bd.249418$3l3.23020@attbi_s03... No kidding, NASA has been using this as a vehicular fuel for decades and they've had only a few accidents. And I have seen three of them WOW! We clear the launch zones via helicopter and hold a couple of miles off the pads. Actually, the solid fuels are far more impressive - imagine minivan - sized chunks falling 1500 feet or so, and exploding upon impact. Liquid hydrogen sucks up lots of energy when it evaporates. Its great for cooling nozzles, but really dampens the show. The real bummer is when they don't blow up until they are way up and have dropped their boosters. Two billion bucks gone and no light show - double****! Robert Haston |
#10
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Diesel is the fuel of the future. It can be made from vegetable oil (biodiesel) or from the newly developed "bio-digester" which can tur almost anything into oil, oil suitable as diesel fuel after treating. You get far more energy out than you put in with diesel. Not so wit hydrogen, alcohol or methane -- Weisse Luft |
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