Police behaviour on January's Critical Mass, London

Hello,

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the most recent Critical Mass on the
group. It was my first CM, and certainly an interesting experience.
However, it was very stop-start and slow, in part down to the actions of
the police. They issued at least 2 on-the-spot fines for red light jumping
and were warning people about not having lights. I'm told there were other
tickets issued as well, including at least 3 for not having lights.

The odd thing was that later on, they were waving people through red
lights, and I even heard the megaphone on the police van telling people to
move through.

Is this normal? I thought that the mass was meant to go through red lights
if the "head" of it went through on green - it keeps it all together (for
safety) and keeps it flowing (for minimal impact on other traffic). Surely
there should be either a policeman on every red light directing traffic
("stop here" or "go on through"), or a consistent policy - either "stop at
all lights/go through all lights" or "stop unless told otherwise"/"go
unless told otherwise".

Personally I have two lights both front and back, and have recently fitted
a rear reflector (I'm not getting a £30 fine for the sake of a reflector)
that my local bike shop kindly gave to me free. I was so pleased I bought
an inner tube from them on the spot. Anyway, I thought I would bring it up
to stimulate some discussion.

--
Alex Pounds (Creature) .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^

In article , Creature
says...
Hello,

I'm surprised nobody has mentioned the most recent Critical Mass on the
group. It was my first CM, and certainly an interesting experience.
However, it was very stop-start and slow, in part down to the actions of
the police. They issued at least 2 on-the-spot fines for red light jumping
and were warning people about not having lights. I'm told there were other
tickets issued as well, including at least 3 for not having lights.

The odd thing was that later on, they were waving people through red
lights, and I even heard the megaphone on the police van telling people to
move through.

Is this normal? I thought that the mass was meant to go through red lights
if the "head" of it went through on green - it keeps it all together (for
safety) and keeps it flowing (for minimal impact on other traffic). Surely
there should be either a policeman on every red light directing traffic
("stop here" or "go on through"), or a consistent policy - either "stop at
all lights/go through all lights" or "stop unless told otherwise"/"go
unless told otherwise".

Personally I have two lights both front and back, and have recently fitted
a rear reflector (I'm not getting a £30 fine for the sake of a reflector)
that my local bike shop kindly gave to me free. I was so pleased I bought
an inner tube from them on the spot. Anyway, I thought I would bring it up
to stimulate some discussion.


It's always illegal to go through a red light unless the light is faulty
or you are instructed to do so by a police officer (or you're letting an
emergency services vehicle through), so I don't know why you're
surprised at that. It's always illegal to ride at night without lights,
so any CM participants who do so are clearly plonkers. What worthwhile
discussion can be had?

Creature wrote on 28/01/2007 12:48 +0100:

Is this normal? I thought that the mass was meant to go through red lights
if the "head" of it went through on green - it keeps it all together (for
safety) and keeps it flowing (for minimal impact on other traffic). Surely
there should be either a policeman on every red light directing traffic
("stop here" or "go on through"), or a consistent policy - either "stop at
all lights/go through all lights" or "stop unless told otherwise"/"go
unless told otherwise".


Do you expect a line of cars to go through on red just because the first
one has? Do you expect every traffic light to have a policeman on
during rush hour to direct traffic? Either Critical Mass is a
spontaneous event, as participants try to claim, in which case riders
should look after themselves and obey the laws or its an organised event
in which case the organisers will have notified the police so
appropriate policing can be done. You can't have it both ways.


Personally I have two lights both front and back, and have recently fitted
a rear reflector (I'm not getting a £30 fine for the sake of a reflector)
that my local bike shop kindly gave to me free. I was so pleased I bought
an inner tube from them on the spot. Anyway, I thought I would bring it up
to stimulate some discussion.


No discussion needed.

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:03:51 -0000, Rob Morley wrote:
It's always illegal to go through a red light unless the light is faulty
or you are instructed to do so by a police officer (or you're letting an
emergency services vehicle through), so I don't know why you're
surprised at that.

I'm surprised because I thought the idea was to keep it in one big, moving
group as much as possible. I understood that the front of the mass was
meant to obey traffic signals, but if a green light changed to red than
the group should follow it through. That way impact on car traffic is
minimised and the group stays together, making it easier to manage, safer,
and quicker.

My main issue is with conflicting signals from the police. They were
stopping some junctions and waving people through, and expecting people to
obey others. At one point I saw a policewoman waving people through some
lights while another police rider was stopped and waiting for them to
change. With conflicting signals like that, what are you supposed to do?


What worthwhile discussion can be had?

Some suggestions:

* Is this the right way for the police to tackle these issues?
* Are there better areas for the police to focus their attention?
* Is it right to tackle some people for this behaviour and not others?
* Should some people receive a warning only, and others a ticket?
* Should the police be more tolerant or should CM change its behaviour?
* Can CM change its behaviour, given that there are no leaders?
* Is CM a good thing or a bad thing? Why?
* Is CM worth bothering with? Why?
* Does this represent a chance in tactics for the police with regards to
Critical Mass? If so, does it matter, and is it warranted?

Maybe you can come up with your own ideas. Or not, if the topic bores you.

As mentioned, I had not been on a critical mass before. I wasn't sure if
it was for me, or if it would be fun, or if it was even a good idea. I'm
still undecided. Thus I don't feel right opining on the issue, but other
people with more experience and different viewpoints may have something
interesting to say.

--
Alex Pounds (Creature) .~. http://www.alexpounds.com/
/V\ http://www.ethicsgirls.com/
// \\
"Variables won't; Constants aren't" /( )\
^`~'^

Creature wrote on 28/01/2007 13:36 +0100:

My main issue is with conflicting signals from the police. They were
stopping some junctions and waving people through, and expecting people to
obey others. At one point I saw a policewoman waving people through some
lights while another police rider was stopped and waiting for them to
change. With conflicting signals like that, what are you supposed to do?


Not conflicting at all. The law says you stop at a red light unless
instructed otherwise by a police officer. So stop at the red lights
unless there is a police officer there telling you to do otherwise.
Quite simple really and just like the rest of the time.

--
Tony

"...has many omissions and contains much that is apocryphal, or at least
wildly inaccurate..."
Douglas Adams; The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

Creature typed:

They issued at least 2 on-the-spot fines
for red light jumping and were warning people about not having
lights. I'm told there were other tickets issued as well, including
at least 3 for not having lights.

Which is fair enough as they are legal requirements.

The odd thing was that later on, they were waving people through red
lights, and I even heard the megaphone on the police van telling
people to move through.

Is this normal?

Yup. Red light means stop, unless instructed otherwise by the Police.

I thought that the mass was meant to go through red
lights if the "head" of it went through on green

You thought wrong.

Just 'cos you think something should be done doesn't mean it will be.
CM is supposed to be a 'spontaneous event' so can't really be expected
to be organised fully. Any rider who joins ought to be aware that an
event like this will attract Police attention so it's prety damn stupid
to do something illegal, especially something as simple as lights ...

--
Paul - xxx

Upon the miasma of midnight, a darkling spirit identified as Creature
gently breathed:
On Sun, 28 Jan 2007 13:03:51 -0000, Rob Morley wrote:
It's always illegal to go through a red light unless the light is faulty
or you are instructed to do so by a police officer (or you're letting an
emergency services vehicle through), so I don't know why you're
surprised at that.

I'm surprised because I thought the idea was to keep it in one big, moving
group as much as possible. I understood that the front of the mass was
meant to obey traffic signals, but if a green light changed to red than
the group should follow it through. That way impact on car traffic is
minimised and the group stays together, making it easier to manage, safer,
and quicker.

Where does this idea come from - is it stated by the police? Are there
any organisers for the events who state this? If it's a disorganised
mass of cyclists all riding the same route, then they should act as
individuals and stop when the lights change. Yes, that breaks things
up, but it also more effectively demonstrates to non-cyclists that
cyclists are traffic just like cars are. The broken up clumps will
mostly join back up again later on anyway.

--
- DJ Pyromancer, Black Sheep, Leeds. http://www.sheepish.net

Broadband, Dialup, Domains = http://www.wytches.net = The UK's Pagan ISP!
http://www.inkubus-sukkubus.co.uk http://www.revival.stormshadow.com

"Rob Morley" wrote in message
t...
In article , Creature
says...

Snip

It's always illegal to go through a red light unless the light is faulty
or you are instructed to do so by a police officer (or you're letting an
emergency services vehicle through), so I don't know why you're
surprised at that. It's always illegal to ride at night without lights,
so any CM participants who do so are clearly plonkers. What worthwhile
discussion can be had?

I seem to recall that drivers have been fined for crossing red lights to let
an emergency vehicle through.

Ken.

In article , Creature
says...
I'm surprised because I thought the idea was to keep it in one big, moving
group as much as possible. I understood that the front of the mass was
meant to obey traffic signals, but if a green light changed to red than
the group should follow it through. That way impact on car traffic is
minimised and the group stays together, making it easier to manage, safer,
and quicker.

What bit of "It's always illegal to go through a red light unless the
light is faulty or you are instructed to do so by a police officer" did
you not understand?

My main issue is with conflicting signals from the police. They were
stopping some junctions and waving people through, and expecting people to
obey others. At one point I saw a policewoman waving people through some
lights while another police rider was stopped and waiting for them to
change. With conflicting signals like that, what are you supposed to do?

If a police officer tells you to cross against the light then you do,
otherwise you don't. That's hardly rocket science is it?

What worthwhile discussion can be had?

Some suggestions:

snip

Maybe you can come up with your own ideas. Or not, if the topic bores you.

I already did, but you didn't seem to understand them (or the Highway
Code).

As mentioned, I had not been on a critical mass before. I wasn't sure if
it was for me, or if it would be fun, or if it was even a good idea. I'm
still undecided. Thus I don't feel right opining on the issue, but other
people with more experience and different viewpoints may have something
interesting to say.

What issue? You expressed surprise that people were cautioned/ticketed
for doing illegal things, and that a large group of people on bikes
couldn't ignore other road users. The only thing that possibly merits
discussion is why you were surprised that these things are not
acceptable.

"Creature" wrote

I'm surprised because I thought the idea was to keep it in one big,
moving
group as much as possible. I understood that the front of the mass was
meant to obey traffic signals, but if a green light changed to red than
the group should follow it through.

Hmmm.
Interesting concept. We could make a new rule of the road - you can
continue past a red light as long as the vehicle in front hasn't cleared
the junction.