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  #41  
Old April 27th 19, 03:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Belt drive

On 2019-04-26 16:24, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 15:48, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:


[...]



It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something
out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery
powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats
me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

Probably because if your using the bike differently to others, my commute
bike though a hardtail is closer to that set up with panniers and a barbag
as I found the weight on the rear effected the handling though with the
weight spread even fully Laden the bike can be some fun in the woods if one
wants.

But for the Nice MTB I don’t need to take so much gear and as a leisure
rather than transport it’s a much nicer ride unladen.



Even during fun rides I carry a full tool kit, a big lock, some spare
parts and most of all water. The water alone can be north of a gallon in
summer because many MTB trails have no opportunity to refill (safely).

How often or likely is a full tool kit needed? Personally I do take some
Allen keys but can’t remember the last time they where needed.


You could have asked the guy whose shifter cable snapped and the limit
screws had Allen heads so were not adjustable via Swiss Army knife.
That's a wee problem far from any roads in hilly turf. Or the rider I
towed after the drive gear was throughly pretzeled. Yes, on the road
bike and sometimes on the MTB I carry a tow rope. Or li'l Henry who
crashed his scooter out in the boonies, was bleeding and his grabndma
didn't have anything in terms of first aid supplies. Or the kids who
hiked a trail in the scorching sun and had absolutely no water left.

Heck, I even "overpacked" on long hikes and got some people out of the
wilderness by supplying and helping them. Including one who had laid
himself down in the bushes off the trail and only mumbled to please let
him die. He also made it back, thanks to my "excessive" baggage.


For a fun ride lock generally isn’t needed, ...



It was yesterday. Parking a bike outside the building in an industrial
district with some hobos milling about isn't an option. Might be gone
when you come back out and an hour later it's all parted out. Another
guy didn't have a lock and he sure was glad mine fit around both bikes.

https://patch.com/img/cdn20/users/23....jpg?width=705

I see that kind of chop shop or remnants thereof during many rides.


... and even riding 20 miles 7k up
at above 30’C two water bottles was fine, 8 bottles is just over kill to
put it mildly.



My rides are usually much longer than 20 miles. On some routes there is
no potable water anywhere and temps in the summer are more around 40C.
Lack of hydration can be toughed out for a day but it makes the ride
less fun and is not healthy. It can end in a "dehdration-bonk" and I had
two of those. Talk to a medical professional about that topic,
preferably one that deals with hiker rescues.

I bought the MTB mostly because it allows me to ride out into nature far
away from what man calls civilization.


It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads.
Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.

To be honest I haven’t found anything breaks with high mileage even on
rough surfaces, bar bolts the old hardtail was about 10 years old when I
pressed it into commuting service, and fitted panniers and what not, but
found that various bolts/attachments over the bike took it in turn to fail
over a few months.


I like to be able to take rocky trails and a HT would just not work for
me there, partially on account of some lower back issues. IMO any
bicycle should be able to carry a load in order to provide a practical
mode of transportation. For example, one client and a software engineer
are located along a rough singletrack. A trail where a HT bike isn't fun.

By the time you have that much weight, which is probably well over what the
suspension is rated for plus the thick tyres, inner tubes the ride is
likely to be fairly poor. I’ve swapped out some Marathon plus Touring for
some big apples and much better ride, particularly when heavily laden.



It rides like a truck but comfy. Build up a little more leg muscle and
it's fine. I want my vehicles to be rated for practical use and that
does include occasionally carrying substantial cargo.

I use tires made in Asia, mostly in Thailand, which have beefy
sidewalls, are the only once that held up so far and are remarkably low
cost. With the usual higher-priced name brand stuff I had too many
sidewall failures.

[...]

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
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  #42  
Old April 27th 19, 03:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
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Posts: 6,016
Default Belt drive

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.



No flats in 20 years?


I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"



A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

I plain don't get flats anymore. The last failure in that domain was
several years ago and wasn't really a flat. Was a bit too fast for that
trail section, the MTB became slightly airborne, landed, a loud bang,
followed by a barely controllable stop. A big chunk of tire was ...
gone. It had taken some other bike parts with it. Unfortunately I did
not carry a spare tire, so ...

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
  #43  
Old April 27th 19, 11:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Belt drive

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:27:33 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:20, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:40:39 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:27, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 12:22:41 -0700, Joerg
wrote:


[...]


It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy loads.
Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.

The carbon-fiber bicycles are so popular is because they are light :-)

I doubt that marketing a bike because it is heavier than all the rest
would be a real smart marketing move :-)


No, it has to be marketed as sturdier than the others. That gets
customers. Why do you think heavy SUVs sell so well in some areas?


The reason that USV's were invented was to circumvent U.S.
regulations about fuel economy (if I remember correctly). By building
a vehicle on a truck chassis and classifying it as a truck the fuel
consumption limits for automobiles didn't apply.



That sounds like fake news. My SUV is classified as a passenger vehicle,
else it would require a different kind of license plate like the pickup
truck of a neighbor does. He also has to pay more tax on it.


No it isn't. I was alive and well when the SUV's were "invented" and
it was common knowledge then. the first vehicle stated to be a SYV
seems to have been the International Harvester Travelall in 1956
(credited as being the first full-size SUV).

Even the Wiki seems to know why the term and model came about,
"For example, Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) regulations
previously included "permit greater cargo-carrying capacity than
passenger carrying volume" in the definition for trucks, resulting in
SUVs being classified as light trucks.

This classification as trucks allowed SUVs to be regulated less
strictly than passenger cars under the Energy Policy and Conservation
Act for fuel economy, and the Clean Air Act for emissions.

Even a casual look would have let you in on the secret .

--
cheers,

John B.

  #44  
Old April 27th 19, 11:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Belt drive

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:54:56 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:24, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 15:48, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:


[...]



It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure something
out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and central-battery
powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build it all myself. Beats
me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

Probably because if your using the bike differently to others, my commute
bike though a hardtail is closer to that set up with panniers and a barbag
as I found the weight on the rear effected the handling though with the
weight spread even fully Laden the bike can be some fun in the woods if one
wants.

But for the Nice MTB I don’t need to take so much gear and as a leisure
rather than transport it’s a much nicer ride unladen.


Even during fun rides I carry a full tool kit, a big lock, some spare
parts and most of all water. The water alone can be north of a gallon in
summer because many MTB trails have no opportunity to refill (safely).

How often or likely is a full tool kit needed? Personally I do take some
Allen keys but can’t remember the last time they where needed.


You could have asked the guy whose shifter cable snapped and the limit
screws had Allen heads so were not adjustable via Swiss Army knife.


Err... the five Allan wrenches that I carry allow me to tighten or
loosen every threaded fastener on the bike and weigh considerably less
than a "Swiss Army Knife". But of course I can't fight off a raging
mountain lion with my Allan wrench....

--
cheers,

John B.

  #45  
Old April 27th 19, 11:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
jOHN b.
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 2,421
Default Belt drive

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?


I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"


A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with
your bare hands.
--
cheers,

John B.

  #46  
Old April 28th 19, 12:46 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Belt drive

On Saturday, April 27, 2019 at 12:24:19 AM UTC+1, Roger Merriman wrote:

How often or likely is a full tool kit needed?


My tool kit weighs 68 grammes. With it I can do everything on the bike that doesn't require a large specialist tool. Never been called on with my current bike, which celebrated it's tenth birthday this year.

Back home each of my bikes has full toolkit of its own, kept near it in a wheeled aluminium pilot's case. I open the relevant case once a year when the bike is serviced.

Bike frames and components are much superior today to what they were a generation ago, say in 1990, or perhaps it is just that I've been buying better bikes over time, with more knowledge and experience of what to look for and specify.

Andre Jute
Who's a curmudgeon, then?
  #47  
Old April 28th 19, 12:54 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Andre Jute[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,422
Default Belt drive

On Friday, April 26, 2019 at 5:26:42 PM UTC+1, Chalo wrote:
Since nobody else has pointed it out yet: Toothed belts must have tension on them to work correctly, without skipping or gnawing their teeth away. Such tension is unhealthy for bottom bracket and hub bearings, and downright destructive to freewheels and freehubs.


I consider Hebie's Chainglider a superior solution to a Gates belt to the desire to have clean pants' bottoms when you cycle in street clothes, as I normally do, so I don't have a belt drive bike and am not likely to get one.

But I find it interesting that Rohloff, who admonishes users that the chain on their gearbox must be slack, officially permit the fitting of a belt drive which depends on its tension not just to work well but to work at all. There's an odd contradiction here.

Andre Jute
RTFM
  #48  
Old April 28th 19, 07:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
SMS
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 9,477
Default Belt drive

On 4/27/2019 7:27 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

That sounds like fake news. My SUV is classified as a passenger vehicle,
else it would require a different kind of license plate like the pickup
truck of a neighbor does. He also has to pay more tax on it.


In California you used to have to register pickup trucks as commercial
vehicles but that's no longer required.

In San Francisco there was an advantage of registering as a commercial
vehicle because there are parking spaces designated for commercial vehicles.
  #49  
Old April 28th 19, 02:11 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
news18
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,131
Default Belt drive

On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 23:59:47 -0700, sms wrote:

On 4/27/2019 7:27 AM, Joerg wrote:

snip

That sounds like fake news. My SUV is classified as a passenger
vehicle,
else it would require a different kind of license plate like the pickup
truck of a neighbor does. He also has to pay more tax on it.


In California you used to have to register pickup trucks as commercial
vehicles but that's no longer required.

In San Francisco there was an advantage of registering as a commercial
vehicle because there are parking spaces designated for commercial
vehicles.


No such commercial vehicle rego for ute/pickup/light truck here and SUV
is just another version of passenger vehicle. When we had a van(aka
courier van as bicycle trip support vehicle), we could park it in
"loading zones". Even kept crates and boxes of stuff in it so it looked
the part. Only ever had to watch out for timed zones.

  #50  
Old April 28th 19, 03:46 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joerg[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 6,016
Default Belt drive

On 2019-04-27 15:55, John B. wrote:
On Sat, 27 Apr 2019 07:59:25 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-26 16:12, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 26 Apr 2019 07:27:05 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 16:32, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 25 Apr 2019 14:16:28 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2019-04-25 14:03, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, April 25, 2019 at 3:22:36 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-25 11:00, Roger Merriman wrote:
Joerg wrote:
On 2019-04-12 07:27, db wrote:
My son is set on getting a belt drive for the bike he is
building. What is good about them? You have to have the exact
length for your bike, and if it breaks, it is very expensive
to replace.

So, why?


Dad gave him too much money :-)

Now, a shaft drive, that would be great.


Imagine it would be much heavier and complicated, they have been
tried and used on MTB but don’t seem to have been cracked, I
think generally the extra weight/cost though a E-MTB would
mitigate that?


Motorcycle manufacturers have figured it out, most of all BMW.
That company should also build MTB, they know how it's done. Weight
doesn't always matter, especially not for many MTB riders. We just
want less wear and most importanly not have to clean and lube the
chain every 50 miles.

It often takes the bicycle industry decades longer to figure
something out. Such as decent heavy-duty rack space on FS MTB and
central-battery powered lighting where, no surprise, I had to build
it all myself. Beats me why one still cannot buy this:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Muddy5.JPG

It's lasted many thousand hard miles now which included heavy
loads. Yeah, that bike is heavy but it never breaks down anymore.


Given a choice I’d love a belt drive bike for the commute as I
clock up fairly respectable distances per day which does chew
though the drive chain.


I'd be careful ...

https://www.thelocal.se/20180524/ike...-lead-to-falls



--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Weight of an MTB doesn't matter? What a crock full of El Toro Poo
Poo! Maybe weight doesn't matter in your world but it sure does to a
LOT of other MTB users. I keep telling you Joerg; your best bet to
get the durability that you say YOU need is to buy a small gasoline
powered dirt motorcycle and convert it to pedal power. After all,
weight doesn't matter to you.


Within reason, of course. There are people who rather ride a bicycle
that weighs 10lbs more than customary but in contrast to others they
generally arrive at their destinations on time, due to a lack of
breakdowns. I happen to be one of those.

The only times during the last years (!) that I didn't arrive on time
were when I assisted others during repairs. Because they didn't have
thorn-resistant tubes et cetera.

But Joerg, I ride a conventional steel frame bicycle and I haven't had
a breakdown, or even something that came loose so I couldn't ride, in
20 years or more. In fact, in thinking back I can't even remember a
time that my bike broke and I couldn't ride it.


No flats in 20 years?

I didn't say anything about flat tires but I don't judge a flat tire
to be a "breakdown" or "came loose"


A flat tire without any tools _is_ a breakdown. He get to hoof it out of
the wilderness for then next 10-20 miles.

But in all the years I've been riding a bicycle I have NEVER had a
flat tire that I couldn't fix in a matter of minutes. Way back in the
old "sew-up" tire days you didn't even need any tools. Fix it with
your bare hands.



Now try that with a Gatorskin or a Vee Rubber 700c 25mm. Yeah, it can be
done but you won't be able to feel some of your fingertips for a while.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/
 




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