Who Are The Velonews Mystery Pros?

In article ,
Bob Schwartz wrote:

B Lafferty wrote:
I take it you haven't seen it, Asshole.

Well, that would explain why no one followed up your question,
wouldn't it?

Bob "Doesn't do hard copy cycling journalism anymore" Schwartz


I'm glad Brian likes me.

He must, otherwise he'd have called you "Mr. Asshole".

--
tanx,
Howard

Butter is love.

remove YOUR SHOES to reply, ok?

Bob Schwartz wrote:
I'm glad Brian likes me.

Howard Kveck wrote:
He must, otherwise he'd have called you "Mr. Asshole".

And he hugged you to. He hasn't even hugged Kunich or Kurgan yet.

"Tom Kunich" wrote in message
ink.net...
"B Lafferty" wrote in message
nk.net...

"Bob Schwartz" wrote in message
...
B Lafferty wrote:
I take it you haven't seen it, Asshole.

Well, that would explain why no one followed up your question,
wouldn't it?

Bob "Doesn't do hard copy cycling journalism anymore" Schwartz


I'm glad Brian likes me.

But I do. Hug. :-)

Here's a clue to the clueless - I don't do "Velonews" since the little
problem they had with anything that had the name "Velo" in it anywhere.

Like I care?

"Donald Munro" wrote in message
news
Bob Schwartz wrote:
I'm glad Brian likes me.

Howard Kveck wrote:
He must, otherwise he'd have called you "Mr. Asshole".

And he hugged you to. He hasn't even hugged Kunich or Kurgan yet.

My Buddha nature says to hug them but I'm not quite there yet.

wrote:
Bill C wrote:
Blah blah blah and some more of the usual blah blah blah

Bill,
Why don't you get off the computer and get on a bike so you can burn
some of those excess calories.

Sincerely,
Your motorcycle

Need to do both kinds of bike, but we're due for another damn foot of
snow in the next day or two. Lotsa cool new racing related **** going
on that doesn't include me training though. Lots of cool news that just
hasn't been finalized yet. Looks like it could be a really busy season
if things work out.
Bill C

Bill C wrote:
It's just too bad that the consequences to people's lives aren't
unreal. We can say it's just cycling as long as we want, but as long as
people care deeply about the sport and are convinced the only way to
win regularly is to dope we will just have to keep picking up the
pieces of shattered lives. I know that a large percentage of you want
to just ignore this, or justify it by saying everyone does it, or say
their stupid to care so much and get what they deserve, but the fact
that we have a shortage of people who really care is a big part of the
problem.


And what do you propose we do about this?

Your problem statement is greatly in error. There is no shortage
of people that give a **** about the problems of the sport. What
is in short supply is viable options for doing anything about
them.

Dope is not a new problem. Cheating in athletic competitions
predates the sport of cycling.

Don't mistake a refusal to bang one's head against a wall with
you to be a lack of caring. If you want to keep kid's lives from
being shattered by doping in sport the thing to do is to be
honest with them about the nature of sport and the place it
should have in their lives, so that they make the right choices
when choices are presented. I am not going to lose sleep over
a lack of opportunity to pursue a career in bike racing under
the conditions we might consider best. Especially since there
isn't really anything to be done about it. Life is full of stuff
like that. Why should we expect bike racing to be any different?

My wife once had a guy from Kenya in her lab. He made an
interesting observation about Americans that we had an
unreasonable expectation of fairness. Life was never fair for
him, and he had no expectation that anything would be fair.

Bob Schwartz

Bob Schwartz wrote:
Bill C wrote:
It's just too bad that the consequences to people's lives aren't
unreal. We can say it's just cycling as long as we want, but as
long as
people care deeply about the sport and are convinced the only way
to
win regularly is to dope we will just have to keep picking up the
pieces of shattered lives. I know that a large percentage of you
want
to just ignore this, or justify it by saying everyone does it, or
say
their stupid to care so much and get what they deserve, but the
fact
that we have a shortage of people who really care is a big part of
the
problem.


And what do you propose we do about this?

Your problem statement is greatly in error. There is no shortage
of people that give a **** about the problems of the sport. What
is in short supply is viable options for doing anything about
them.

Dope is not a new problem. Cheating in athletic competitions
predates the sport of cycling.

Don't mistake a refusal to bang one's head against a wall with
you to be a lack of caring.

Right now the only reason this is even being discussed is that a
handfull of people have decided to make it a crusade, primarily in
France and Italy. No I don't have any quick solutions, but I do see it
getting swept way behind the back burner unless people like you and me
keep speaking out. Once the riders themselves decide they've hadd
enough and start turning dopers in things will improve, but nothing is
going to change at all if we don't keep "beating our heads in the wall"
until the wall caves in.

If you want to keep kid's lives from
being shattered by doping in sport the thing to do is to be
honest with them about the nature of sport and the place it
should have in their lives, so that they make the right choices
when choices are presented. I am not going to lose sleep over
a lack of opportunity to pursue a career in bike racing under
the conditions we might consider best. Especially since there
isn't really anything to be done about it. Life is full of stuff
like that. Why should we expect bike racing to be any different?

I refuse to just tell the kids "It's all dirty, everyones cheating,
life sucks live with it." Brian has called me a Pollyanna on more than
one occasion, but if we just quit when it looked like there was no way
to gain on the problem we'd still be a segregated society, and women
wouldn't be voting. It took a handfull of people working over a long
time to beat those walls down, but it happened. Cycling is nowhere near
that important to life, but it is important to the people in it. If I
took your negative outlook I wouldn't spend ****loads of hours every
year trying to be a better official, officiating, helping out with
races, running kids races, or trying to expand the kids stuff. Maybe
some cool news soon on that subject.

My wife once had a guy from Kenya in her lab. He made an
interesting observation about Americans that we had an
unreasonable expectation of fairness. Life was never fair for
him, and he had no expectation that anything would be fair.

Given the state of Kenya and it's history, it's no surprise that he
saw things that way.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4249679.stm
But there are people there willing to risk their lives to make things
more fair, and less corrupt.
There's a bunch of **** out there that I know that I'll never live to
see corrected, but I don't see any reason to quit trying for that
reason. Life isn't fair and that's reality, but there's no reason not
to try and give everyone equal opportunity to succeed.
Besides I like lost causes because sometimes you get lucky and pull
one out.
Bob Schwartz

Bill C

Bob Schwartz wrote:

My wife once had a guy from Kenya in her lab. He made an
interesting observation about Americans that we had an
unreasonable expectation of fairness. Life was never fair for
him, and he had no expectation that anything would be fair.

Bob Schwartz

The remedy to this is a nun who barely speaks English walking down the
aisle randomly smacking kids with a ruler. Reward and punishment (on
this earth?)are not necessarily linked to deeds. It is capricious and
decidedly NOT fair. We all need to get over it. Worked for me.

Bill C wrote:

Right now the only reason this is even being discussed is that a
handfull of people have decided to make it a crusade, primarily in
France and Italy. No I don't have any quick solutions, but I do see it
getting swept way behind the back burner unless people like you and me
keep speaking out. Once the riders themselves decide they've hadd
enough and start turning dopers in things will improve, but nothing is
going to change at all if we don't keep "beating our heads in the wall"
until the wall caves in.

Look at Decanio, he's exhibit A. He's right about an awful lot
of stuff and an awful lot of people.

And it doesn't matter. A strategy where you 'out' people just
leads to ****ing contests. He's off the deep end on too much
stuff to be credible even when he's right. But it wouldn't
matter if he wasn't crazy. A ****ing contest is still a
****ing contest. His being nuts just increases the flow and
odor. Urine is not a cleaning solution. And it splatters on
everyone.

But at the core he's doing what he's doing because working
within the system is ineffective. So he targets reputations
because that's a reachable goal and because he's willing to
accept some collateral damage.

Maybe in the age of small digital cameras riders will turn
each other in via pictures and video clips of needles in
asses but short of that I don't see the point.

Cops could make a dent like they are in Europe but there is
no way to justify that given the other stuff they could be
doing.

I refuse to just tell the kids "It's all dirty, everyones cheating,
life sucks live with it." Brian has called me a Pollyanna on more than
one occasion, but if we just quit when it looked like there was no way
to gain on the problem we'd still be a segregated society, and women
wouldn't be voting. It took a handfull of people working over a long
time to beat those walls down, but it happened. Cycling is nowhere near
that important to life, but it is important to the people in it. If I
took your negative outlook I wouldn't spend ****loads of hours every
year trying to be a better official, officiating, helping out with
races, running kids races, or trying to expand the kids stuff. Maybe
some cool news soon on that subject.

Bill, you do it because of the majority of riders that have
their heads screwed on right about the sport. That's why I
do it.

I don't see this in as narrow a context as bike racing
anymore. People cheat and do dishonest things and nasty,
unethical **** in the workplace. Bike racing is no different.
A huge part of our social structure involves the composition
of rules and their enforcement. We constantly balance the
costs of enforcement vs the benefits. And remember, this
isn't just monetary cost, there is the cost of a false
conviction. Something has to change the economics of the
transaction for there to be change. Or for things to get
worse. But we don't have cops busting people for jaywalking
because there isn't much benefit.

Decanio changes his view of the economics of enforcement by
accepting a generous splatter factor. That doesn't work for
me. And in the end, he will not be effective. ****ing
contests are not a force for change.

At some point my kid and I will talk about dope in bike
racing. And we'll talk about the SOB that dad used to work
for that saw nothing wrong with making **** up about people
and sticking it in their personnel histories as a way to
engineer dismissals. Or the miserable **** that hired him
to squeeze expense out of operations. Both are a part of
life. Every workplace has it's issues.

Bob Schwartz

Bob Schwartz wrote:
Bill C wrote:

Right now the only reason this is even being discussed is that a
handfull of people have decided to make it a crusade, primarily in
France and Italy. No I don't have any quick solutions, but I do see
it
getting swept way behind the back burner unless people like you and
me
keep speaking out. Once the riders themselves decide they've hadd
enough and start turning dopers in things will improve, but nothing
is
going to change at all if we don't keep "beating our heads in the
wall"
until the wall caves in.

Look at Decanio, he's exhibit A. He's right about an awful lot
of stuff and an awful lot of people.

And it doesn't matter. A strategy where you 'out' people just
leads to ****ing contests. He's off the deep end on too much
stuff to be credible even when he's right. But it wouldn't
matter if he wasn't crazy. A ****ing contest is still a
****ing contest. His being nuts just increases the flow and
odor. Urine is not a cleaning solution. And it splatters on
everyone.

But at the core he's doing what he's doing because working
within the system is ineffective. So he targets reputations
because that's a reachable goal and because he's willing to
accept some collateral damage.

Maybe in the age of small digital cameras riders will turn
each other in via pictures and video clips of needles in
asses but short of that I don't see the point.

Cops could make a dent like they are in Europe but there is
no way to justify that given the other stuff they could be
doing.

I refuse to just tell the kids "It's all dirty, everyones cheating,
life sucks live with it." Brian has called me a Pollyanna on more
than
one occasion, but if we just quit when it looked like there was no
way
to gain on the problem we'd still be a segregated society, and
women
wouldn't be voting. It took a handfull of people working over a
long
time to beat those walls down, but it happened. Cycling is nowhere
near
that important to life, but it is important to the people in it. If
I
took your negative outlook I wouldn't spend ****loads of hours
every
year trying to be a better official, officiating, helping out with
races, running kids races, or trying to expand the kids stuff.
Maybe
some cool news soon on that subject.

Bill, you do it because of the majority of riders that have
their heads screwed on right about the sport. That's why I
do it.

Bob, here's where we differ and I think it's the critical difference.
I'd guess, and it's nothing more than a guess, that the majority of the
pros are doping in some form. I'd bet that it's almost universal for
the top 15-20% of the pro peleton, both here and in Europe.


I don't see this in as narrow a context as bike racing
anymore. People cheat and do dishonest things and nasty,
unethical **** in the workplace. Bike racing is no different.
A huge part of our social structure involves the composition
of rules and their enforcement. We constantly balance the
costs of enforcement vs the benefits. And remember, this
isn't just monetary cost, there is the cost of a false
conviction. Something has to change the economics of the
transaction for there to be change. Or for things to get
worse. But we don't have cops busting people for jaywalking
because there isn't much benefit.

I don't think we need to involve the cops other than for major doping
dealers and rings which should be treated just like any other drug
ring. Cycling isn't generalised society though, it's a rigorously
structured subset of it with clear and solid rules. Life is very open
ended. Cycling needs to enforce the rules it has a whole lot better
than it does. This would be a whole lot simpler by removing about half
the **** from the doping list, because even in massive doses a lot of
the stuff is only going to provide a marginal performance boost.


Decanio changes his view of the economics of enforcement by
accepting a generous splatter factor. That doesn't work for
me. And in the end, he will not be effective. ****ing
contests are not a force for change.
He's far from the only pro who knows a lot of who's doing what. Plenty
of others have said things, only anonymously. Do you have any idea how
close bodybuilding came to being an Olympic sport. It made it to
demonstration status and the Weider brothers were giving Samaranch
enough perks and favors to get it in. What sent it back to sideshow
status was the doping and drugs. That's where I see cycling headed
unless they get serious about doping. Bodybuilding is doing fine as a
drug infested niche sport, and so would cycling for the most part
albeit a whole lot smaller since cycling requires convincing towns to
loan us public resources. That's not going to be easy when the whole
sport is perceived as a travelling drug carnival. We've already got
people ****ing on church lawns and running around nude in the parking
lot, now all we need to add to it is needles and IV bags.

At some point my kid and I will talk about dope in bike
racing. And we'll talk about the SOB that dad used to work
for that saw nothing wrong with making **** up about people
and sticking it in their personnel histories as a way to
engineer dismissals. Or the miserable **** that hired him
to squeeze expense out of operations. Both are a part of
life. Every workplace has it's issues.
Yeah and you speak up and do something about it. The guy and company
your talking about could be my old man, but this sounds like it's a lot
more legit than he is. I'd bet I've cost my old man $10,000,000 in work
and development deals because he's a lying theiving no good SOB and
I've said so, pointed people to other companies he screwed and solid
sources for what his behavior is like. Needless to say we haven't
spoken in about 15 years, but I still have billing reports he falsified
to cover my ass if I ever need them. I cost myself control over at
least two of his companies and my inheritance because I literally
wouldn't sign off on how he does business. I object to having **** I
sign falsified, and most of the other things he does. So we scramble to
pay the bills like everyone else, but at least I can look in the
mirror. Scary part is so can he because he thinks it's only right to
take anything you can if the other people aren't smart enough, or nasty
enough to stop you from doing it.

We can't control the rules to life it's too big a picture. Cycling is
small enough that if they really wanted to they could make it a whole
lot cleaner than it is.


Bob Schwartz


Bill C