Groupsets

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 10:16:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 9:41:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

Lou

I had to go with 11 speeds because getting 10 speed stuff was more expensive. Shimano isn't rebuildable so the 10 speed stuff is throw-away and the Campy parts to rebuild the levers was getting scarce.

The one weakness of the Shimano Dura Ace 11 appears to be that it doesn't have a cable adjuster for the front derailleur and it is a real bear to get exactly the right cable tension.

I don't get that. You can always put in an in-line barrel adjuster, no? Is there something about Dura Ace that prevents that?

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 7:26:31 PM UTC+2, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 10:16:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 9:41:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

Lou

I had to go with 11 speeds because getting 10 speed stuff was more expensive. Shimano isn't rebuildable so the 10 speed stuff is throw-away and the Campy parts to rebuild the levers was getting scarce.

The one weakness of the Shimano Dura Ace 11 appears to be that it doesn't have a cable adjuster for the front derailleur and it is a real bear to get exactly the right cable tension.

I don't get that. You can always put in an in-line barrel adjuster, no? Is there something about Dura Ace that prevents that?

-- Jay Beattie.

No, build up a bike for a friend a couple of weeks ago wit DA. The inline adjuster was included in the goupset.


Lou, had a haircut today.

Am 05.06.2020 um 17:54 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was
riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp.Â* I like that
28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears.
What's not to like?

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

Actually, 10 years ago a bike dealer strongly recommended to my wife to
put 3 x 8 rather than 3 x 9 on her quite expensive bike, due to
longevity of the chain.
The low-end gravel bike I bought last week even haS 2 x 8 (with a 450%
range form 34 - 34 to 50 - 11).

Rolf

On Friday, 5 June 2020 11:54:54 UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down.. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

And I suspect - but can't prove - that a lot of those people, if they
retained their N speed bike, would have a nagging feeling that N gears
just weren't quite enough.

I was thinking last night, I've got bikes with 1, 3, 5, 6, 7 and 9 rear
cogs (or in the case of the "3", that many internal gears). I've got
total gears ranging from 1 to 27 (not that I ride the single speed).

What matters is total gear range for a given task or terrain. Minimizing
percent change between gears is far, far less critical. But that's what
the industry has been selling for a long time.

Until, that is, they suddenly said "Hey, you need only one chainring!"

Fashion is weird and powerful.


--
- Frank Krygowski

I think t hat 9-speed for road touring is fantastic. Why? Because I can buy two different cassettes and customize them to get the EXACT gearing I want which is fairly close-spaced 7-speed with two larger bail-out gears. It's nice to have small jumps between gears so that I don't spin out when changing a gear, may cadence stays longer in the comfort zone and I still have to bail-out gears for when I'm bucking a strong headwind especially uphill.

I looked at 10+ setups but won't get one of them do to the high expense of their cogsets and chains compared to 9-speed stuff.

YMMV and usually does.

Cheers

On 6/5/2020 11:49 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 4:01:48 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 6/4/2020 5:29 PM, wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or both.


harumph.
I have a Zeus Alfa centerpull on the front of my three speed
to replace the Universal 61 destroyed when a rental truck
ran me down. It's been no trouble at all since installed,
1998 or so.



And you have wrists like Hercules trying to get a bike to stop. Even the change from the 2015 Campy brakes to the Skeleton brakes made a huge difference in hand pressure.

There is a descent I did yesterday where the road comes around a turn and comes to a stop sign with about a 16% grade. Just the carbon rim pads make it almost impossible to stop at the stop sign until I changed over to Campy Carbon pads. It made such a huge difference in hand pressure I wonder what it is going to do to brake surface life.

The aluminum rims I'm now using on the Madone are like a return to heaven.

The cantilever Brakes I was using on my cyclocross bikes make stopping under difficult conditions scary until I changed to V-brakes. The very fact that so many people have changed to disk brakes is proof that people did NOT like not having effective brakes. Not having to worry about how effective your brakes are makes a huge difference in the way people ride.

You would be wrong about that. One or two fingers are enough
for most riding and it will lock up with moderate hand
pressure (unlike the very cute but crappy performance
Sturmey drum rear).

Then again my front rim's a Red Label. On chinese carbon
wonder wheels, all bets are off.



--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

On 6/5/2020 1:16 PM, Rolf Mantel wrote:
Am 05.06.2020 um 17:54 schrieb Frank Krygowski:
Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course,
one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28
on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get
to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and
wrecked an 8 speed they never complained about, they would
buy a 9 speed to replace it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now
perhaps 12.

Actually, 10 years ago a bike dealer strongly recommended to
my wife to put 3 x 8 rather than 3 x 9 on her quite
expensive bike, due to longevity of the chain.
The low-end gravel bike I bought last week even haS 2 x 8
(with a 450% range form 34 - 34 to 50 - 11).

Rolf

We still build the occasional compact 7 and 3x7 expedition
touring bikes for the same reason- 7 chain is much more
durable and field serviceable which matters if you expect to
be beyond civilization (carrying water, fuel, food on the
bike).

For most riders, a telephone call to uber is sufficient for
the rare chain problem or tire gash.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 12:55:32 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

Wow, all my road bikes from the '70s broke or got stolen -- or both. I still have a '72 Raleigh Pro track bike, but it doesn't have shifters. I have some Campy shifters sitting around from the '70s, and I may turn them into key fobs, or I could glue them to the downtube on my commuter bike and pretend to shift. I hear that will give me superior bike handling skills. They'd probably loosen up even if I glued them on.

-- Jay Beattie.

On Friday, 5 June 2020 15:55:32 UTC-4, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 6:33:04 PM UTC-7, Radey Shouman wrote:
writes:

On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 12:30:27 AM UTC-7, Dennis Davis wrote:
In article ,
jbeattie wrote:

...

I think that the curmudgeon handbook, chapter six, has a lengthy
discussion of the benefits of DT friction shifters. IIRC,
they a (1) slow and imprecise shifting, (2) missed shifts,
(3) conspicuous contrarianism, (4) longevity like an incurable
skin condition, (5) inconvenient location, and (6) conspicuous
contrarianism. Clearly superior to any STI/Ergo like system.

A double dose of "conspicuous contrarianism" ("3" and "6"). Isn't
that overkill?

Perhaps (6) is better replaced by:

(6) Requires levels of skill not present in modern cyclists.


...I'm planning to put some Simplex Retrofriction downtube levers on
my next bike...
--
Dennis Davis

I think more accurate would be "requires total lack of skills that
modern cyclists have." Anyone that rides downtube shifters or
centerpull brakes in this day and age is either penniless or stupid or
both.

Thanks, Tom. I'm not penniless, I must be stupid.

Then explain how you have a downtube shifter bike? Unless you make a
effort to collect classic bikes you can't even find downtube shifters
anymore. I had a hard enough time getting bar ends for my touring
bike. And I've never even used it and it is sitting in the backyard

I bought one in 1978, still ride it. Some parts are new.

I can only guess that Tom either doesn't know about Google or he refuses to accept anything that Google returns that Tom doesn't agree with. Downtube shifters ARE READILY availlable.

https://www.amazon.com/downtube-shif...ntube+shifters

Jensen has downtube shifters and bar-end shifters too.

https://www.jensonusa.com/search?q=downtube+shifters

Lots of downtube shifters on Ebay.

https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from...&_sacat=177824

Lots of bar end shifters on Ebay too.

https://www.ebay.ca/sch/i.html?_from...ntube+shifters

Tom's usually wrong about just about every subject he posts on.

Cheers

On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 10:26:31 AM UTC-7, jbeattie wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 10:16:26 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 9:41:47 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, June 5, 2020 at 5:54:54 PM UTC+2, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 9:54 PM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, June 4, 2020 at 5:38:21 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 6/4/2020 6:19 PM, jbeattie wrote:

snip

DT shifters and five speed are fashion -- conspicuous contrarianism.

Really? At what point in time did my good friend, who has ridden her
Trek since the 1980s, transition from "I just love this bike" to "I'm
only doing this to be contrarian"?

I use all my 11 cassette cogs. I could give one up, but why? My little lunch ride today was our standard loop of 16 miles and 1600 feet of climbing, full speed trying to keep up with my buddy. Except for the roll into town (to see the post-riot damage), everything was some degree of up or down. I shifted my way nicely up and down the cassette, enjoying each and every cog.

I'm glad you love those cute little things, but: What did you have
before the 11? Was it a 10? Was there really a time you said "Damn, I
just hate that there are only ten cogs back there! When, oh when, will
they invent an 11?"

I doubt it. You probably told your ten cogs "You are all individuals,
but I love each of you equally!"

Seriously, I _never_ heard a cyclist complain about having the maximum
number of cogs then on the market. But every time the industry did the
N+1 move, there was quiet pride by the new owners who showed off their
N+1 and slight envy by the guys who had only N.

That was GM's 1960s tactic: "Wouldn't you rather have THIS year's model?"


You have all these imagined scenarios. I don't know anyone who went out and bought 11sp simply because it became available. I was riding 10sp until my wife drove my Supersix under a low overhang when it was up on a roof rack. I also had 10sp on my CAAD 9, but that went off to Utah with my son. I know I had some eight speed shifters, and I think I put those on my sons old beater Windsor. My first STI bike was eight speed.

I had 9 speed on my commuter, but I wanted to shift to hydraulic discs, so I went to 11sp. That was probably a mistake, and I should have found some 9speed hydraulic levers. Shimano does make them. So I have some redundant 9sp Tiagra levers sitting in a box downstairs.

I had 7 speed on my old touring bike, which I did upgrade to eight speed STI because the bike was spec'd with bar-ends, which I hate. I gave that bike away. My tandem had seven or eight speed ERGO. I sold that. I have one-speed on my track bike.

Anyway, the difference between 10 and 11 is, of course, one. I was riding 10sp 12-25/26 cassette, so I got a 28 on the 11sp. I like that 28 a lot these days. And I get to keep all my close range gears. What's not to like?

Jay, I'm not saying masses of people threw away 10 speed bikes when 11s
came out.

But I am saying that if someone drove into a garage and wrecked an 8
speed they never complained about, they would buy a 9 speed to replace
it. Repeat for 10, 11 and now perhaps 12.

The important point is this: They were not unhappy with N gears until
N+1 came out. But by golly, when the opportunity arose, they would find
some way to justify N+1.

They just went with the flow. It is easier today to get 11 speed stuff then 7 speed. Don't over analyze this.

Lou

I had to go with 11 speeds because getting 10 speed stuff was more expensive. Shimano isn't rebuildable so the 10 speed stuff is throw-away and the Campy parts to rebuild the levers was getting scarce.

The one weakness of the Shimano Dura Ace 11 appears to be that it doesn't have a cable adjuster for the front derailleur and it is a real bear to get exactly the right cable tension.

I don't get that. You can always put in an in-line barrel adjuster, no? Is there something about Dura Ace that prevents that?

-- Jay Beattie.

The one's that I've seen for **** wires don't have much adjustment and you're stuck playing with a wire pull tool anyway.