Gatorskins: Joerg Wins!

jbeattie wrote:

:-- so I quit tying and soldering and still have a big coil of NSF
:silver-bearing solder for use on SS that polished up real purdy and made
:shiny ties. I'm keeping it in case I need to do an emergency repair on
:food machinery.

Works well for soldering the ends of cables.







--
sig 26

On 2017-03-29 18:11, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 12:44:59 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 11:35, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:55:52 AM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male
friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I
built them, and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride
the tandem on super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain
lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take
sections of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack
even with the road bike.

Some of my inner-city trails are now just running streams over rock,
even the mud has been washed off with all the rain. This is more of
a tire issue than a spoke issue, though. My wheels are doing fine.


I have a steel frame road bike, weigh around 220lbs myself and typically
carry a load. Also lots of hills and steep uphill intersections where I
have to stop and then often step on it to clear traffic. That and
offroad is where the spokes go kaputt. This is a typical unpaved road in
our area:

http://www.analogconsultants.com/ng/bike/Chapparal1.JPG


Given that I have ridden with no wheel failure on road at least as bad
as you portray I can only assume that your spoke breakage is due to
something other than the road.

But you might want to read
http://www.cyclingabout.com/review-rigida-andra-30-rim/
which describes the rims and wheels that the writer states as
"Nothing has proven to be as strong as the Ryde Andra 30".



Thanks, bookmarked. That looks like a fine rim.


I also came across some wheels that are described as "The heavier
steel spokes prevents them from breaking. The indented spoke nuts into
the rim upset also help protect the tube from puncture. Solid Steel
Rim with 12 Gauge Spokes - Upset Reinforced Rim with spoke heads
recessed includes rear brake arm and mounting bracket. 26" X 2.125" 12
Gauge 36H 1.4T that matches 26" 2,125" tire Spoke: 12 Gauge 257mm with
steel nipple Rear Coaster Hub 3/8" 12 Gauge 36 H 110 W 140mm Free
wheel 18T with flange nut."
https://motoredbikes.com/threads/ext...-wheels.45512/


My next wheel will have 12 gauga spokes again for sure. Or thicker if
possible.


It appears that the equipment is out there and for sale. Which would
seem to make your problems self-inflected as you are simply not buying
the correct equipment to suit your riding style..


I have thick spokes and good rims right now. However, spokes keep going
every now and then, on the rear wheel. The "self-infliction" comes from
the fact that I often use my bikes as ... gasp ... utility vehicles.
Bringing heavy packages to Fedex when I couldn't make the pickup cut-off
time, schlepping parts from the valley up here, etc. This includes
sections where chugging uphill in low gear is required, almost standing
in the pedals.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-03-29 18:18, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 5:15:13 PM UTC-7, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
Snipped

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike
and that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle
but the tens of lbs riding along in back won't.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS on dirt
roads at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't have
problems with busted sopkes or busted wheels.


My experience is different. I have participated in many tours with
tents and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty much all
riders.

You and your cohorts had ****ty wheels. You should not be breaking
spokes on well-built touring wheels, meaning 36 spoke wheel with
ordinary 2.0 spokes -- particularly not a 120mm or 126mm retro-wheel.
Before DT, there were a lot of ****ty spokes in the world. Alpine
and Union spokes broke a lot, but modern spokes not so much, and they
usually fail from fatigue and not over-load. If you're talking about
a tour in the '60s or early'70s, I could understand all the broken
spokes. Not in the 2000s.


Most of those tours were in the 80's. Nice bikes and many (like mine)
built by pro bike shops. The guys who also take care of racing teams.


Also, just drilling out a normal hub to take those large
diameter spokes you talk about, will most likely cause the hub
flange to fail. But then again that'd give you something else to
complain about.


You have to pick one with enough meat on there and not some weight
weenie version.

I've ripped flanges off Phil and Shimano hubs that are not whimpy,
and that was without drilling. I would get a purpose-built hub if I
were going to use 12g spokes.


Or extra rings bolted on and made by a machine shop. As long as weight
does not matter and for me it never did.


Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a
pedal drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.


Funny thing is that the MTB wheels hold up rather well. No busted
spokes there yet and that bike gets used hard. It took me a while
to find decvent tires but I've got those now.

Now, about that bent shock mount ...

You should be able to get equally strong road wheels without going to
extremes. When I destroy a wheel, its a ruined rim. I only break
spokes (when I do break spokes) because of using old parts. All my
wheels are built with used spokes -- some from the '70s, and if you
don't keep track of spoke orientation from one wheel to the next, you
can end up resetting the bend and breaking them at the head. At
least one of my flange failures was due to changing spoke patterns
and getting spoke dents on both sides of the same hole -- or at least
that is my diagnosis.


I always used new spokes to replace broken ones. No broken flanges or
rims but lots of crunched freehubs (pawl damage, bearing damage and
such) and BBs. As a kid I have broken rims but that was because I rode a
lot on motocross tracks during times when MTBs did not exist.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-03-29 23:59, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 17:15:18 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:

[...]


Trade in the bicycle for a motorcycle and get someone to afix a pedal
drive to it to cure all your bicycle riding woes.


Funny thing is that the MTB wheels hold up rather well. No busted spokes
there yet and that bike gets used hard. It took me a while to find
decvent tires but I've got those now.


Well, why not modify your rode bike to take the 26 inch wheels. As you
mentioned (I think) a 1 inch steerer tube it is likely a steel frame
and the addition of brake bosses which you could use for either Vee or
Canti brakes is a minor project. If one were careful and protected the
stays and fork tubes with wet rags I believe a very minimum of
re-painting would be required. Or if you were really into brakes you
could convert the bike to disks, but with a bit more extensive paint
work :-)

Your problems are not insurmountable.


They aren't but there comes a point where the effort is too much,
especially for an electronics guy with limited tools and skills for
mechanical work.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 2017-03-29 18:14, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best friends, I
usually shortcut through our forest preserve. Gravel road, single track
trail through the forest edge and then through a grassy meadow, drop
down off a curb and ride on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain bikers
feared to go. Photos are online.


So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This is why I
always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke all the time. While
at university all I could afford for commuting were department road
bikes and anything more would have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about
one year and afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I
could buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and that's
was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the tens of lbs
riding along in back won't.

You talk of Tens of pounds and Jay talks of hundreds of pounds but
your wheels break and his do not?


Hundreds of lbs of cargo?


Strange, isn't it?


No, could be different turf. Just like the guys on the Rubicon break all
sorts of stuff on their SUVs and on mine nothing never broke in 20 years
despite overloaded trips on rough dirt roads. I wish Mitsubishi would
make bicycles of similar sturdiness.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

On 3/30/2017 9:41 AM, Duane wrote:
On 30/03/2017 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:01:23 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 8:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
Snipped

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on
the bike and
that's was really does them in. I can get out of the
saddle but the
tens of lbs riding along in back won't.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS
on dirt roads
at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't
have problems
with busted sopkes or busted wheels.


My experience is different. I have participated in many
tours with tents
and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty
much all riders.

Huh. We made it 4000 miles across America, including the
C&O Canal
Towpath, with full panniers, tents, sleeping bags, stove,
food, etc. and
no wheel problems.

I broke one spoke riding across the US. I don't know
why. My girlfriend broke none, and I built all the
wheels. 36 fresh 2.0 DT on Phil hubs and Super Champion
Mod. 58s. I tied and soldered the rears. I did the same
with my tandem rear, and Jobst gave me a bunch of **** --
so I quit tying and soldering and still have a big coil of
NSF silver-bearing solder for use on SS that polished up
real purdy and made shiny ties. I'm keeping it in case I
need to do an emergency repair on food machinery.


I did a lot of touring with my Bianchi Volpe and its stock
Arroyo wheels and never broke a spoke. Not one. Not once
in 20 years. I'm talking about tents and sleeping bags and
stuff. But this was a touring bike. Not a mountain lion
hunting bike for beer delivery guys on single track.

snip

That would be Araya CT7 rims probably

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 30/03/2017 11:38 AM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/30/2017 9:41 AM, Duane wrote:
On 30/03/2017 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 9:01:23 PM UTC-7, Frank
Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 8:15 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 16:42, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Wednesday, March 29, 2017 at 4:23:41 PM UTC-4, Joerg
wrote:
Snipped

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on
the bike and
that's was really does them in. I can get out of the
saddle but the
tens of lbs riding along in back won't.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

Funny thing is that many people TOUR with HEAVY LOADS
on dirt roads
at least as bad as your 'Chapparal' image yet don't
have problems
with busted sopkes or busted wheels.


My experience is different. I have participated in many
tours with tents
and all that. Broken spokes were common among pretty
much all riders.

Huh. We made it 4000 miles across America, including the
C&O Canal
Towpath, with full panniers, tents, sleeping bags, stove,
food, etc. and
no wheel problems.

I broke one spoke riding across the US. I don't know
why. My girlfriend broke none, and I built all the
wheels. 36 fresh 2.0 DT on Phil hubs and Super Champion
Mod. 58s. I tied and soldered the rears. I did the same
with my tandem rear, and Jobst gave me a bunch of **** --
so I quit tying and soldering and still have a big coil of
NSF silver-bearing solder for use on SS that polished up
real purdy and made shiny ties. I'm keeping it in case I
need to do an emergency repair on food machinery.


I did a lot of touring with my Bianchi Volpe and its stock
Arroyo wheels and never broke a spoke. Not one. Not once
in 20 years. I'm talking about tents and sleeping bags and
stuff. But this was a touring bike. Not a mountain lion
hunting bike for beer delivery guys on single track.

snip

That would be Araya CT7 rims probably


Yep, thanks for the correction.
Sturdy wheels if I'm to understand that spokes break a lot but didn't
stay true like my HEDs. g

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 18:14, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best friends, I
usually shortcut through our forest preserve. Gravel road, single track
trail through the forest edge and then through a grassy meadow, drop
down off a curb and ride on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain bikers
feared to go. Photos are online.


So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This is why I
always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke all the time. While
at university all I could afford for commuting were department road
bikes and anything more would have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about
one year and afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I
could buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and that's
was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the tens of lbs
riding along in back won't.

You talk of Tens of pounds and Jay talks of hundreds of pounds but
your wheels break and his do not?


Hundreds of lbs of cargo?


Strange, isn't it?


No, could be different turf. Just like the guys on the Rubicon break all
sorts of stuff on their SUVs and on mine nothing never broke in 20 years
despite overloaded trips on rough dirt roads. I wish Mitsubishi would
make bicycles of similar sturdiness.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder just how many spokes the Vietnamese broke on those bicycles they used to haul vast quantities of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Or isthat trail not as rough as yours?

Cheers

On 3/30/2017 10:24 AM, jbeattie wrote:

Trip down memory lane (cue dreamy harp music). Did you visit the Cookie Lady in Afton, Va.? https://www.crazyguyonabike.com/doc/?doc_id=1431 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/June_Curry My picture is in the Cookie House Registry, but I'm not going to tell you what month because I look like a dope.

No, our route didn't go anywhere near Afton VA. We did our own route
from the Delaware coast, west to northern Ohio. We used some of
Adventure Cycling's Northern Tier route, then made our own way across
Iowa, then mostly followed Adventure Cycling's brand new Lewis & Clark
route to the Pacific.

Those were days before GPS (for us, anyway), smart phones and emails via
thumbs. I tried to stop in libraries every week or so to email our
various friends. If anyone's curious, those emails are online at
http://bicyclinglife.com/Recreation/...SummerRide.htm

My son looked at all the pictures from the '70s and '80s and commented that people back then just looked happier and less serious. It was true.

Well for one thing, in the '70s and '80s, there hadn't been decades
worth of "Danger! Danger!" warnings.

We were all riding around in t-shirts and gym shorts, although I was ahead of the curve and had some Bikecology touring shorts (shorts with a terry cloth crotch). Beta Bikers rocked -- super stiff. It was my first tour with a helmet because I was trying to help Skidlid subjugate the world.

Ours was 2003. After mostly wearing a helmet for many years, I'd given
it up for almost all except club rides. I decided to take mine along on
that tour "just in case" but ended up riding mostly without it. It
bothered me especially in the heat, when it saved up my sweat and dumped
it into my eyes. Somehow, riding blind seemed - dare I say it? - dangerous!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 2017-03-30 10:28, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 18:14, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a
male friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with
36 spokes. I built them, and they worked perfectly,
although we didn't ride the tandem on super-gnarly trail
while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to
take sections of dirt road and the occasional stretch of
singletrack even with the road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best
friends, I usually shortcut through our forest preserve.
Gravel road, single track trail through the forest edge and
then through a grassy meadow, drop down off a curb and ride
on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain
bikers feared to go. Photos are online.


So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This
is why I always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke
all the time. While at university all I could afford for
commuting were department road bikes and anything more would
have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about one year and
afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I could
buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike
and that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle
but the tens of lbs riding along in back won't.

You talk of Tens of pounds and Jay talks of hundreds of pounds
but your wheels break and his do not?


Hundreds of lbs of cargo?


Strange, isn't it?


No, could be different turf. Just like the guys on the Rubicon
break all sorts of stuff on their SUVs and on mine nothing never
broke in 20 years despite overloaded trips on rough dirt roads. I
wish Mitsubishi would make bicycles of similar sturdiness.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder just how many spokes the Vietnamese broke on those bicycles
they used to haul vast quantities of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail?
Or isthat trail not as rough as yours?


When it got rough they usually pushed it:

http://263i3m2dw9nnf6zqv39ktpr1.wpen...1_1200x480.jpg

They also had among the first fat bikes:

https://i2.wp.com/peteralanlloyd.com...-45.jpg?w=1024

Then they changed to other kinds of cycles:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/ph...aphy/182689829

Have you taken a closer look at classical Asian bicycles? The Bayer
Corporation (the guys that came up with Aspirin) headquarters was very
close to where I grew up so I saw their company bikes a lot. They found
that older style Chinese bicycles outperformed others in terms of
reliability and then bought them by the boatload. Employees were allowed
and encouraged to use them privately as well. Those were very sturdy
beasts, thick spokes, two top tubes in parallel, and so on. Even the
more modern Flying Pigeon has more spokes than usual on the rear wheel
and the whole thing weighs more than 40lbs empty. Guess why they did that.

The Bayer bicycles looked similar to this one, just more stout:

http://www.radioleverkusen.de/images...372463_max.jpg

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/