Gatorskins: Joerg Wins!

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:28:46 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 18:14, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best friends, I
usually shortcut through our forest preserve. Gravel road, single track
trail through the forest edge and then through a grassy meadow, drop
down off a curb and ride on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain bikers
feared to go. Photos are online.


So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This is why I
always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke all the time. While
at university all I could afford for commuting were department road
bikes and anything more would have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about
one year and afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I
could buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and that's
was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the tens of lbs
riding along in back won't.

You talk of Tens of pounds and Jay talks of hundreds of pounds but
your wheels break and his do not?


Hundreds of lbs of cargo?


Strange, isn't it?


No, could be different turf. Just like the guys on the Rubicon break all
sorts of stuff on their SUVs and on mine nothing never broke in 20 years
despite overloaded trips on rough dirt roads. I wish Mitsubishi would
make bicycles of similar sturdiness.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder just how many spokes the Vietnamese broke on those bicycles they used to haul vast quantities of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Or is that trail not as rough as yours?

Cheers

Bicycle equipped military predated the Vietminh :-)
The British had bicycle equipped troops as early as 1886, there are
photos of U.S. bicycle troops dated 1897. By 1900 each French line
infantry and chasseur battalion had a cyclist detachment.

A bit more recently the Japanese had 50,000 bicycle mounted troops
during the invasion of China in 1937 and in 1941 they used bicycle
mounted troops during the used bicycle troops during the invasion of
Malaya and Singapore which were said to be highly effective.

Currently all Finnish conscripts are trained to use bicycles and the
Swiss maintained a Bicycle Troop until 2001. In fact there was even a
specially made "Swiss Army Bicycle" that went through several
versions, the latest being the "Militärvelo" MO 93 that weighed 50 lbs
and had, not only carried fore and aft but a large enclosed container
attached to the top tube.

As late as 1997 Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)
funded research conducted by the U.S. Marine Corps to develop a
tactical folding all terrain bicycle. The parameters of the test seem
to be 75 lbs of cargo while "fuel" was specified as 3 lbs of food
(MRE) and 24 lbs of water.


But Joerg breaks spokes.
--
Cheers,

John B.

We had postcards and phone calls. High tech was putting our film rolls in Kodak mailers and having the pictures waiting when we got home. We used maps for maps. One good part about being on the Bikecentennial route was having other bicyclists coming and going, so you could get previews of the road ahead. When we left the route to go down through the Appalachia to Knoxville, it was a little lonely -- big dogs, coal trucks . . . and banjo music.. But we did get to go to the original Colonel Sanders in Corbin, Kentucky. That was worth the ride right there. We crept through the front door on our knees, praying to the grease gods and flogging ourselves with wishbones. It's a religious experience.

You were looky! We used to -dream- of being passed by coal trucks. Would've been paradise, to us.

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 11:35:06 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 10:28, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 18:14, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a
male friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with
36 spokes. I built them, and they worked perfectly,
although we didn't ride the tandem on super-gnarly trail
while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to
take sections of dirt road and the occasional stretch of
singletrack even with the road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best
friends, I usually shortcut through our forest preserve.
Gravel road, single track trail through the forest edge and
then through a grassy meadow, drop down off a curb and ride
on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain
bikers feared to go. Photos are online.


So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This
is why I always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke
all the time. While at university all I could afford for
commuting were department road bikes and anything more would
have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about one year and
afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I could
buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike
and that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle
but the tens of lbs riding along in back won't.

You talk of Tens of pounds and Jay talks of hundreds of pounds
but your wheels break and his do not?


Hundreds of lbs of cargo?


Strange, isn't it?


No, could be different turf. Just like the guys on the Rubicon
break all sorts of stuff on their SUVs and on mine nothing never
broke in 20 years despite overloaded trips on rough dirt roads. I
wish Mitsubishi would make bicycles of similar sturdiness.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder just how many spokes the Vietnamese broke on those bicycles
they used to haul vast quantities of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail?
Or isthat trail not as rough as yours?


When it got rough they usually pushed it:

http://263i3m2dw9nnf6zqv39ktpr1.wpen...1_1200x480.jpg

They also had among the first fat bikes:

https://i2.wp.com/peteralanlloyd.com...-45.jpg?w=1024

Then they changed to other kinds of cycles:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/ph...aphy/182689829

Have you taken a closer look at classical Asian bicycles? The Bayer
Corporation (the guys that came up with Aspirin) headquarters was very
close to where I grew up so I saw their company bikes a lot. They found
that older style Chinese bicycles outperformed others in terms of
reliability and then bought them by the boatload. Employees were allowed
and encouraged to use them privately as well. Those were very sturdy
beasts, thick spokes, two top tubes in parallel, and so on. Even the
more modern Flying Pigeon has more spokes than usual on the rear wheel
and the whole thing weighs more than 40lbs empty. Guess why they did that.

The Bayer bicycles looked similar to this one, just more stout:

http://www.radioleverkusen.de/images...372463_max.jpg


You talk as though these Bayer bicycles were something unusual. The
Chinese Flying Pigeon PA-08 is still being made and I believe are
available at a shop in Los Angeles or alternately through the Flying
Pigeon web site.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/30/2017 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-30 11:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2017 11:15 AM, Joerg wrote:

I have thick spokes and good rims right now. However, spokes keep going
every now and then, on the rear wheel. The "self-infliction" comes from
the fact that I often use my bikes as ... gasp ... utility vehicles.
Bringing heavy packages to Fedex when I couldn't make the pickup cut-off
time, schlepping parts from the valley up here, etc. This includes
sections where chugging uphill in low gear is required, almost standing
in the pedals.

Joerg, I think you're overestimating your machismo. I use my bikes as
utility vehicles as well. My last grocery run, just a couple days ago,
had me carrying probably 50 pounds. It far exceeded the capacity of my
large shopping panniers, partly because I realized at the last minute
that we needed a big box of cat litter. I ended up with stuff lashed on
top of the panniers and overstuffing the handlebar bag. (And since it's
so important to you: yes, a dozen beers were part of the load.)


I am not macho but this is standard fare for me. I have an ESGE aluminum
rack on the road bike and panniers on that. This is where tools, water,
small loads of purchase stuff rides. The flat section on top is where
machine parts for client, Fedex boxes, supplies from the valley and such
ride.


I also spent decades biking to and from work, over famously potholed
streets, often with piles of books and lab reports to grade. I do
remember breaking two rear axles over the years, but almost never a
spoke.


I broke several axles on the old MTB and that was because it had one of
those dreaded freewheels where the right bearing is too far inside.
Strangely I do not break spokes on MTB but I broke lots of them on road
bikes, maybe because they have no suspension.

Whenever this frame gives up (if it ever does) I will transfer to a
cyclocross bike with disc brakes and then I can use MTB wheels. That
should fix the problem for good.

BTW, I am by far not the only one with wear failures. The extreme is a
friend who rides around 10k miles per year. He broke frames, BBs,
spokes, numerous hubs, cranks and so on. Everything he rides is
high-class expensive stuff, he only rides on paved surfaces yet it
breaks. He only weighs around 180lbs and doesn't even have a cargo racks
on his bikes. However, he sure steps on it and I can't keep up with him
for much more than 30 minutes. Not because of lack of muscle but because
then I am out of breath.

About high class, expensive stuff: I think spending lots of money
doesn't necessarily mean you're getting more reliability. In some
cases, you're getting lighter equipment that is supposed to produce
performance benefits, but which probably has lower safety factors. IOW,
the designers cut things closer to the minimum in order to advertise
lightness.

I'm not at all saying that the cheapest stuff is the strongests. But it
may be that there's some sweet spot, a price point at which the
equipment is good enough in material and design to be strong and work
well, but not so "high class" as to require careful use to prevent failure.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/30/2017 3:19 PM, Joerg wrote:

Totally OT: Is there a YouTube video of you playing your fiddle? Or in a
small band?

I doubt it. When we begin playing, most people turn off their cameras
and head for the exit. We've thought about hiring ourselves out for
crowd control.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/30/2017 3:22 PM, AMuzi wrote:
On 3/30/2017 1:58 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:

The Bayer bicycles looked similar to this one, just more
stout:

http://www.radioleverkusen.de/images...372463_max.jpg



So buy one!



It might tip over. Better to be safe with:

http://cityofwatsonville.org/police-...dson-servi-car

This museum
http://www.packardmuseum.org/MotorcycleExhibit.aspx
is quite nearby. Friends and I visit the annual motorcycle exhibit each
year, and I often arrive on my antique BMW.

The exhibit changes every year, but almost every year they've had a
Servi-Car on display.

I've never ridden a motorized three wheeler, but my one experience on a
old-style men's upright racing tricycle (Delta, not Tadpole design)
makes me think I'd approach curves with an abundance of caution.


--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/30/2017 9:37 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 10:28:46 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 18:14, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a male friend).
It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with 36 spokes. I built them,
and they worked perfectly, although we didn't ride the tandem on
super-gnarly trail while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to take sections
of dirt road and the occasional stretch of singletrack even with the
road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best friends, I
usually shortcut through our forest preserve. Gravel road, single track
trail through the forest edge and then through a grassy meadow, drop
down off a curb and ride on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain bikers
feared to go. Photos are online.


So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This is why I
always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke all the time. While
at university all I could afford for commuting were department road
bikes and anything more would have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about
one year and afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I
could buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike and that's
was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle but the tens of lbs
riding along in back won't.

You talk of Tens of pounds and Jay talks of hundreds of pounds but
your wheels break and his do not?


Hundreds of lbs of cargo?


Strange, isn't it?


No, could be different turf. Just like the guys on the Rubicon break all
sorts of stuff on their SUVs and on mine nothing never broke in 20 years
despite overloaded trips on rough dirt roads. I wish Mitsubishi would
make bicycles of similar sturdiness.

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder just how many spokes the Vietnamese broke on those bicycles they used to haul vast quantities of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail? Or is that trail not as rough as yours?

Cheers

Bicycle equipped military predated the Vietminh :-)
The British had bicycle equipped troops as early as 1886, there are
photos of U.S. bicycle troops dated 1897. By 1900 each French line
infantry and chasseur battalion had a cyclist detachment.

A bit more recently the Japanese had 50,000 bicycle mounted troops
during the invasion of China in 1937 and in 1941 they used bicycle
mounted troops during the used bicycle troops during the invasion of
Malaya and Singapore which were said to be highly effective.

Currently all Finnish conscripts are trained to use bicycles and the
Swiss maintained a Bicycle Troop until 2001. In fact there was even a
specially made "Swiss Army Bicycle" that went through several
versions, the latest being the "Militärvelo" MO 93 that weighed 50 lbs
and had, not only carried fore and aft but a large enclosed container
attached to the top tube.

As late as 1997 Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA)
funded research conducted by the U.S. Marine Corps to develop a
tactical folding all terrain bicycle. The parameters of the test seem
to be 75 lbs of cargo while "fuel" was specified as 3 lbs of food
(MRE) and 24 lbs of water.

As vaguely related as possible:

Sometime in the 1980s, we saw a wonderful play titled "Spokesong." It
was set in Belfast during the 1970s Irish "Troubles" but also set during
The Great [first world] War. Two different generations were dealing
with their personal relationships, the troubles of the world around
them, and their absolute love of bicycles.

One of the characters was a man sent off to war, with high hopes about
the glorious utility of the bicycle as a war machine. In the play, it
didn't quite work out.

Another was an idealistic owner of a bike shop, convinced that bicycles
could save the city, but fighting to keep his shop from being taken over
for "urban renewal."

I recommend the play highly, although I suppose one's chance of seeing
it performed is rather small. It spoke to me on many levels. I think
it's worth tracking down the script, at least.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/30/2017 9:38 PM, Doug Landau wrote:

We had postcards and phone calls. High tech was putting our film rolls in Kodak mailers and having the pictures waiting when we got home. We used maps for maps. One good part about being on the Bikecentennial route was having other bicyclists coming and going, so you could get previews of the road ahead. When we left the route to go down through the Appalachia to Knoxville, it was a little lonely -- big dogs, coal trucks . . . and banjo music. But we did get to go to the original Colonel Sanders in Corbin, Kentucky. That was worth the ride right there. We crept through the front door on our knees, praying to the grease gods and flogging ourselves with wishbones. It's a religious experience.

You were looky! We used to -dream- of being passed by coal trucks. Would've been paradise, to us.

If you want to mash up paradise with coal, there's this song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1vC65_cq0Js

Regarding passed by trucks: When riding the freeways out west, we found
almost all the truckers to be a bit too courteous. They passed us
almost invariably a full lane away. That meant we didn't get the
benefit of the tailwind they were dragging behind them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 12:19:52 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-30 11:58, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2017 2:35 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-30 10:28, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Thursday, March 30, 2017 at 11:30:01 AM UTC-4, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 18:14, John B. wrote:
On Wed, 29 Mar 2017 13:23:44 -0700, Joerg
wrote:

On 2017-03-29 13:08, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/29/2017 12:55 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-29 07:35, jbeattie wrote:

[...]


saw rider weights between 330 and 400lbs (my wife or a
male friend). It was old-tech, too: 140mm rear hub with
36 spokes. I built them, and they worked perfectly,
although we didn't ride the tandem on super-gnarly trail
while being chased by mountain lions.



It depends where you ride. I often have no choice but to
take sections of dirt road and the occasional stretch of
singletrack even with the road bike.

That's not uncommon. To get to the house of one of my best
friends, I usually shortcut through our forest preserve.
Gravel road, single track trail through the forest edge and
then through a grassy meadow, drop down off a curb and ride
on. No problem.

Jobst was famous for riding his road bike where most mountain
bikers feared to go. Photos are online.


So did I, almost since the training wheels had come off. This
is why I always kept a large stash of new spokes. They broke
all the time. While at university all I could afford for
commuting were department road bikes and anything more would
have been stolen anyhow. Each lasted about one year and
afterwards was totally finished. Not a big deal because I could
buy another used one for around $30.

As I said, in my case that often also means cargo on the bike
and that's was really does them in. I can get out of the saddle
but the tens of lbs riding along in back won't.

You talk of Tens of pounds and Jay talks of hundreds of pounds
but your wheels break and his do not?


Hundreds of lbs of cargo?


Strange, isn't it?


No, could be different turf. Just like the guys on the Rubicon
break all sorts of stuff on their SUVs and on mine nothing never
broke in 20 years despite overloaded trips on rough dirt roads. I
wish Mitsubishi would make bicycles of similar sturdiness.

-- Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

I wonder just how many spokes the Vietnamese broke on those bicycles
they used to haul vast quantities of stuff on the Ho Chi Minh Trail?
Or isthat trail not as rough as yours?


When it got rough they usually pushed it:

http://263i3m2dw9nnf6zqv39ktpr1.wpen...1_1200x480.jpg



They also had among the first fat bikes:

https://i2.wp.com/peteralanlloyd.com...-45.jpg?w=1024



Then they changed to other kinds of cycles:

http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/ph...aphy/182689829



Have you taken a closer look at classical Asian bicycles? The Bayer
Corporation (the guys that came up with Aspirin) headquarters was very
close to where I grew up so I saw their company bikes a lot. They found
that older style Chinese bicycles outperformed others in terms of
reliability and then bought them by the boatload. Employees were allowed
and encouraged to use them privately as well. Those were very sturdy
beasts, thick spokes, two top tubes in parallel, and so on. Even the
more modern Flying Pigeon has more spokes than usual on the rear wheel
and the whole thing weighs more than 40lbs empty. Guess why they did
that.

The Bayer bicycles looked similar to this one, just more stout:

http://www.radioleverkusen.de/images...372463_max.jpg


So buy one!


AFAIK they have been discontinued. If you haven't noticed yet the
Chinese have, sadly, given up on cycling in droves and adopted the
internal combustion engine. Now they live in smog.

http://wap.chinadaily.com.cn/img/att...1a15bfef1c.jpg

The other issue is that, yes, I can replace this road bike with a
cyclocross bike and mod its frame so it can take a rack and heavy loads.
However, then my wife rightfully would make me get rid of ye olde
Gazelle because the garage gets too full. I can't yet bring myself to
scrapping old Gazelle (yet).

Totally OT: Is there a YouTube video of you playing your fiddle? Or in a
small band?


But even a quick look at the Internet shows super strong rims and wide
flange hubs. I really doubt that a combination of, say a Grand Bois,
Maxi-Car, Grand-Cru or even a Chris King, high flange hub with a
strong 36 hole rim and decent spokes and built by someone that knows
what they are doing will be prone to failure.

Or read the Jones wheel site http://www.jonesprecisionwheels.com
Note that his order form asks for information about how much the rider
weighs and how much cargo he plans to carry, the riding style, the
terrain and even problems that you have had with previous wheel sets.

Of course, there is the possibility that you simply don't know what
you are doing and trying to carry a heavier load than your bicycle is
designed for.. After all even a 50 ton truck can be overloaded.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Thu, 30 Mar 2017 22:14:53 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 3/30/2017 3:12 PM, Joerg wrote:
On 2017-03-30 11:47, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 3/30/2017 11:15 AM, Joerg wrote:

I have thick spokes and good rims right now. However, spokes keep going
every now and then, on the rear wheel. The "self-infliction" comes from
the fact that I often use my bikes as ... gasp ... utility vehicles.
Bringing heavy packages to Fedex when I couldn't make the pickup cut-off
time, schlepping parts from the valley up here, etc. This includes
sections where chugging uphill in low gear is required, almost standing
in the pedals.

Joerg, I think you're overestimating your machismo. I use my bikes as
utility vehicles as well. My last grocery run, just a couple days ago,
had me carrying probably 50 pounds. It far exceeded the capacity of my
large shopping panniers, partly because I realized at the last minute
that we needed a big box of cat litter. I ended up with stuff lashed on
top of the panniers and overstuffing the handlebar bag. (And since it's
so important to you: yes, a dozen beers were part of the load.)


I am not macho but this is standard fare for me. I have an ESGE aluminum
rack on the road bike and panniers on that. This is where tools, water,
small loads of purchase stuff rides. The flat section on top is where
machine parts for client, Fedex boxes, supplies from the valley and such
ride.


I also spent decades biking to and from work, over famously potholed
streets, often with piles of books and lab reports to grade. I do
remember breaking two rear axles over the years, but almost never a
spoke.


I broke several axles on the old MTB and that was because it had one of
those dreaded freewheels where the right bearing is too far inside.
Strangely I do not break spokes on MTB but I broke lots of them on road
bikes, maybe because they have no suspension.

Whenever this frame gives up (if it ever does) I will transfer to a
cyclocross bike with disc brakes and then I can use MTB wheels. That
should fix the problem for good.

BTW, I am by far not the only one with wear failures. The extreme is a
friend who rides around 10k miles per year. He broke frames, BBs,
spokes, numerous hubs, cranks and so on. Everything he rides is
high-class expensive stuff, he only rides on paved surfaces yet it
breaks. He only weighs around 180lbs and doesn't even have a cargo racks
on his bikes. However, he sure steps on it and I can't keep up with him
for much more than 30 minutes. Not because of lack of muscle but because
then I am out of breath.

About high class, expensive stuff: I think spending lots of money
doesn't necessarily mean you're getting more reliability. In some
cases, you're getting lighter equipment that is supposed to produce
performance benefits, but which probably has lower safety factors. IOW,
the designers cut things closer to the minimum in order to advertise
lightness.

I'm not at all saying that the cheapest stuff is the strongests. But it
may be that there's some sweet spot, a price point at which the
equipment is good enough in material and design to be strong and work
well, but not so "high class" as to require careful use to prevent failure.

Well, you can buy a low end Rolex watch for about $5,000 these days.
Or a low end Casio G-Shock for ~$99. Which one keeps the best time one
wonders :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.