Bike Weight and Climbing Speed.

On Fri, 08 Jan 2021 14:55:48 -0500, Frank Krygowski scribed:

On 1/8/2021 2:20 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:

I notice that you are ready to immediately miss the parts that says -
these terms are often used synonymously.

Tom, they are NOT synonyms among people who actually know the
definitions! That's the point! Sheesh!

Yep, another WOOSH for little tommy that clearly demonstrates his lack of
machine shop experience.

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 06:39:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 6:08:19 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2021 6:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Haha. Built without a jig to keep everything in a plane, usually the handling would be really slow on a steel bike. Without a jig it would seem a waste of good 531 to build a bike like that.

Please ring this guy up and tell him he's doing it wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AMfK1OS_mc

BTW I have that same Hozan torch, one of my favorites.
Are you saying that he didn't machine and assemble that 4130 frame in a jig before brazing on a bottom bracket lug? Of course he might be like John and be capable of "machining" tubes to a thousandth of an inch accuracy with a pin knife and file.

There you go again Tommy. A "pin knife" whatever is that? I even
goodled it and the closest I can come to it is something to "pin" on
your shirt collar
https://tinyurl.com/yxw28uee
Do you mean that I can trim the end of a steel tube with a plastic
do-dad?

You really are, well, pretty stupid, aren't you.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 11:20:16 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 11:10:47 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/8/2021 9:48 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 6:42:49 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 16:57:46 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
Haha. Built without a jig to keep everything in a plane, usually the handling would be really slow on a steel bike. Without a jig it would seem a waste of good 531 to build a bike like that.
Tommy boy! If you want to play the game you got to learn the name of
the players.

A "jig" is a device to hold a piece of work and to guide the cutting
tool.

If you want to argue technical things you got to call them by their
correct name. Doing otherwise simply enforces the realization that you
just don't know what you are talking about.

It is always pleasant to see you demonstrate your lack of intelligence. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jig_(tool)
Try a source that will actually differentiate between "jig" and "fixture."

https://www.brighthubengineering.com...s-vs-fixtures/

https://www.cnclathing.com/guide/dif...nce-cnclathing

https://www.protolabs.com/resources/...-and-fixtures/

John is right, at least according to correct practice.

https://assets.amuniversal.com/b9ded...46001dd8b71c47

I notice that you are ready to immediately miss the parts that says - these terms are often used synonymously. Is there no level that you won't stoop to? You make it more clear with every posting that you may not even be e human being.

Nope. I simply demonstrated the correct terminology. You know, like
the guys that actually work with jigs and fixtures use.

If you want to come up with something some ignorant ass who, like you,
doesn't know his arse from a hole in the ground, uses go right ahead
and do it. Granted, it does make you look stupid to anyone that
actually does know what he/she/it is talking about but that can't
possible be anything new for you.

--
Cheers,

John B.

On 5/1/21 4:30 am, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Mon, 4 Jan 2021 07:38:27 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

If you look at the YouTube video's about cutting open questionable
frames (one video had the guy cutting open two C60 Colnagos) this
is sure to make you feel uneasy.

You might want to invest in a USB borescope/endoscope camera:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=borescope+usb
7 or 8mm is about the right diameter for decent viewing. Be sure to
get one that has a right angle mirror accessory so that you're viewing
the side of the tubing.

There are also two types of flexible cablings. The "flex" cable is
good for going around corners. For tubing inspection, a "semi-rigid"
cable is better because you can more easily rotate the camera in the
tube. There are some that offer wireless connectivity, which I've
found to be useless.

I've got a cheap endoscope that I bought to help me find a fuel leak
from my Jeep. One of the 3 hard fuel lines that go from the fuel filter
over the bell housing had worn through where it made contact with the
bell housing.

Anyhow, I can say that the $50 AUD, WiFi connected endoscope works fine
for me.

--
JS

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 13:59:04 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/7/2021 9:14 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:01:38 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/7/2021 11:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 at 6:39:03 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/6/2021 8:37 PM, John B. wrote:

My experience has been that fixtures, whether actually required to do
the job or not, do make it a lot easier :-)
Oh, they certainly can! But they tend to be pretty expensive, whether
made in-house or purchased from another source. So the question quickly
becomes "Is a fixture worth it?"

If the cost is amortized over 100 frames a year, perhaps yes. If the
builder is making a frame a month, probably no. And if the frames are
wildly different, they might need different fixtures anyway.

So it all depends.

Frank, you don't even know what the hell a fixture is. Do you even know what a "flat" is in a machine shop? Every posting you make shows that you know either very little or nothing about what you pretend to have taught.
If you mean "optical flat," yes, I know what that is. I can also tell
you what a Surface Plate is, which (given your general ignorance) may
also be what you're referring to. I taught many people how to use one in
concert with various measuring tools, including gage blocks and optical
flats, plus much more prosaic measuring devices like digital and vernier
height gages, go/no-go gages and the like.

Frank, you use a "flat" for building jigs with accurate horizontal and vertical components.

Quite obviously you don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps you
walked by a machine shop at one time or another and SHAZAM! In a flash
of light you suddenly became an expert on the trade.

Or perhaps Tom has a random word generator somewhere between his ears?

It's a weird show, watching his ideas pop into existence, and how he
uses his... um, amazing memory to process them.

Obviously, asking him for documentation never works. Neither does
providing him with counter-documentation.

No, I believe that Tom suffers from Narcissistic personality disorder

Or, at least he exhibits all the symptoms, described as:

"in which people have an inflated sense of their own importance, a
deep need for excessive attention and admiration, troubled
relationships, and a lack of empathy for others. But behind this mask
of extreme confidence lies a fragile self-esteem that's vulnerable to
the slightest criticism and frequently resorts to threats of violence"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 14:54:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 1/8/2021 2:15 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 10:59:08 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/7/2021 9:14 PM, John B. wrote:
On Thu, 7 Jan 2021 17:01:38 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 10:57:31 AM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/7/2021 11:03 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
On Wednesday, January 6, 2021 at 6:39:03 PM UTC-8, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 1/6/2021 8:37 PM, John B. wrote:

My experience has been that fixtures, whether actually required to do
the job or not, do make it a lot easier :-)
Oh, they certainly can! But they tend to be pretty expensive, whether
made in-house or purchased from another source. So the question quickly
becomes "Is a fixture worth it?"

If the cost is amortized over 100 frames a year, perhaps yes. If the
builder is making a frame a month, probably no. And if the frames are
wildly different, they might need different fixtures anyway.

So it all depends.

Frank, you don't even know what the hell a fixture is. Do you even know what a "flat" is in a machine shop? Every posting you make shows that you know either very little or nothing about what you pretend to have taught.
If you mean "optical flat," yes, I know what that is. I can also tell
you what a Surface Plate is, which (given your general ignorance) may
also be what you're referring to. I taught many people how to use one in
concert with various measuring tools, including gage blocks and optical
flats, plus much more prosaic measuring devices like digital and vernier
height gages, go/no-go gages and the like.

Frank, you use a "flat" for building jigs with accurate horizontal and vertical components.

Quite obviously you don't know what you are talking about. Perhaps you
walked by a machine shop at one time or another and SHAZAM! In a flash
of light you suddenly became an expert on the trade.

Or perhaps Tom has a random word generator somewhere between his ears?

It's a weird show, watching his ideas pop into existence, and how he
uses his... um, amazing memory to process them.

Obviously, asking him for documentation never works. Neither does
providing him with counter-documentation.

Frank, tell us exactly what experience you have with machine shops and their procedures? From your comments I would say none at all.

I always thought machine shops were really interesting. When I first
started work as a Plant Engineer, I made friends with the machinists and
had them explain various machines and operations to me. I learned the
basic concepts from those guys, but I never had time (or, I suppose,
permission) to use that shop.

Later I began teaching at a tech school that had an amazing machine shop
program run by an exacting cigar-chomping old guy. Since my students
took some classes from him as part of our curriculum, I took the classes
myself. I was lucky to be able to use the machine tools for my own
projects after hours. I got experience on lathes, milling machines, a
jig borer, grinders of various types, welding and brazing equipment, a
heat treating oven, etc. I had access to other equipment (EDM, metal
spraying equipment, etc.) that I never had to use. It was a _very_
impressive machine shop, and I was very pleased to have after-hours
access to it. (And one of its side rooms was a handy place to rebuild
one of my engines.)

When I began teaching at the university, our curriculum also had an
intro machine shop lab course. After demonstrating my knowledge, I was
deemed qualified to teach that lab and did so for decades. Again, I had
after-hours access to the shop, although this one was much smaller.
Among other things, I used it for various bike-related projects -
building a kid-back setup for our tandem, machining crank shorteners,
custom aero bars, trailer parts and more. I also taught a different lab
that included industrial metrology, everything from machinists'
measuring tools to modern electronic sensors. Oh, and I had access to a
CNC mill and lathe. I took the elective course our students took to
learn to program them. Not that I personally need CNC. Everything I make
is custom, a "production run" of one.

When I retired, I really missed losing access to that shop, especially
the milling machine. I've got two metal lathes in my own little shop
(and a wood lathe tucked away in storage), an oxy-acetylene set and a
cheap flux core wire welder and various wood working tools. I just don't
have room for a mill.

Good on you! When I was assigned to the F-111B test program our
"project engineer", a 2nd Lieutenant, once sent me a drawing of some
sort of probe - a 3 inch long probe with a #80 hole drilled lengthwise
through it - when I took the drawing back and told him "they don't
make 3 inch long #80 drill bits", he looked a bit perturbed and
says,"how are we going to make it then?"
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 1/8/2021 8:19 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 14:54:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I always thought machine shops were really interesting. When I first
started work as a Plant Engineer, I made friends with the machinists and
had them explain various machines and operations to me. I learned the
basic concepts from those guys, but I never had time (or, I suppose,
permission) to use that shop.

Later I began teaching at a tech school that had an amazing machine shop
program run by an exacting cigar-chomping old guy. Since my students
took some classes from him as part of our curriculum, I took the classes
myself. I was lucky to be able to use the machine tools for my own
projects after hours. I got experience on lathes, milling machines, a
jig borer, grinders of various types, welding and brazing equipment, a
heat treating oven, etc. I had access to other equipment (EDM, metal
spraying equipment, etc.) that I never had to use. It was a _very_
impressive machine shop, and I was very pleased to have after-hours
access to it. (And one of its side rooms was a handy place to rebuild
one of my engines.)

When I began teaching at the university, our curriculum also had an
intro machine shop lab course. After demonstrating my knowledge, I was
deemed qualified to teach that lab and did so for decades. Again, I had
after-hours access to the shop, although this one was much smaller.
Among other things, I used it for various bike-related projects -
building a kid-back setup for our tandem, machining crank shorteners,
custom aero bars, trailer parts and more. I also taught a different lab
that included industrial metrology, everything from machinists'
measuring tools to modern electronic sensors. Oh, and I had access to a
CNC mill and lathe. I took the elective course our students took to
learn to program them. Not that I personally need CNC. Everything I make
is custom, a "production run" of one.

When I retired, I really missed losing access to that shop, especially
the milling machine. I've got two metal lathes in my own little shop
(and a wood lathe tucked away in storage), an oxy-acetylene set and a
cheap flux core wire welder and various wood working tools. I just don't
have room for a mill.

Good on you! When I was assigned to the F-111B test program our
"project engineer", a 2nd Lieutenant, once sent me a drawing of some
sort of probe - a 3 inch long probe with a #80 hole drilled lengthwise
through it - when I took the drawing back and told him "they don't
make 3 inch long #80 drill bits", he looked a bit perturbed and
says,"how are we going to make it then?"

That illustrates one of the reasons our students had to take the lab. I
always told them, this lab is just an introduction. It won't come close
to making you a machinist. But it will give you some familiarity with
machining so you're less likely to design something that's impossible to
make.

We did have them turn a short shaft to 0.375" OD plus or minus 0.001".
The lesson there was really "specify realistic tolerances."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Sat, 09 Jan 2021 08:44:20 +0700, John B. scribed:


One thing about getting older is you remember doing things that "modern
folks" can't even imagine doing. How many here can milk a cow?

Yep, although usually we kids had to do the rounding up in paddocks
infested wit Patterson's curse(very scratchy).

Op zaterdag 9 januari 2021 om 03:50:51 UTC+1 schreef Frank Krygowski:
On 1/8/2021 8:19 PM, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 14:54:05 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:


I always thought machine shops were really interesting. When I first
started work as a Plant Engineer, I made friends with the machinists and
had them explain various machines and operations to me. I learned the
basic concepts from those guys, but I never had time (or, I suppose,
permission) to use that shop.

Later I began teaching at a tech school that had an amazing machine shop
program run by an exacting cigar-chomping old guy. Since my students
took some classes from him as part of our curriculum, I took the classes
myself. I was lucky to be able to use the machine tools for my own
projects after hours. I got experience on lathes, milling machines, a
jig borer, grinders of various types, welding and brazing equipment, a
heat treating oven, etc. I had access to other equipment (EDM, metal
spraying equipment, etc.) that I never had to use. It was a _very_
impressive machine shop, and I was very pleased to have after-hours
access to it. (And one of its side rooms was a handy place to rebuild
one of my engines.)

When I began teaching at the university, our curriculum also had an
intro machine shop lab course. After demonstrating my knowledge, I was
deemed qualified to teach that lab and did so for decades. Again, I had
after-hours access to the shop, although this one was much smaller.
Among other things, I used it for various bike-related projects -
building a kid-back setup for our tandem, machining crank shorteners,
custom aero bars, trailer parts and more. I also taught a different lab
that included industrial metrology, everything from machinists'
measuring tools to modern electronic sensors. Oh, and I had access to a
CNC mill and lathe. I took the elective course our students took to
learn to program them. Not that I personally need CNC. Everything I make
is custom, a "production run" of one.

When I retired, I really missed losing access to that shop, especially
the milling machine. I've got two metal lathes in my own little shop
(and a wood lathe tucked away in storage), an oxy-acetylene set and a
cheap flux core wire welder and various wood working tools. I just don't
have room for a mill.

Good on you! When I was assigned to the F-111B test program our
"project engineer", a 2nd Lieutenant, once sent me a drawing of some
sort of probe - a 3 inch long probe with a #80 hole drilled lengthwise
through it - when I took the drawing back and told him "they don't
make 3 inch long #80 drill bits", he looked a bit perturbed and
says,"how are we going to make it then?"
That illustrates one of the reasons our students had to take the lab. I
always told them, this lab is just an introduction. It won't come close
to making you a machinist. But it will give you some familiarity with
machining so you're less likely to design something that's impossible to
make.

We did have them turn a short shaft to 0.375" OD plus or minus 0.001".
The lesson there was really "specify realistic tolerances."

plus mines 0.001" is not unrealistic. It is huge for a press fit. It is all about tooling and measuring.

Lou

On Friday, January 8, 2021 at 2:52:53 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
On Fri, 8 Jan 2021 06:39:06 -0800 (PST), Tom Kunich
wrote:

On Thursday, January 7, 2021 at 6:08:19 PM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
On 1/7/2021 6:57 PM, Tom Kunich wrote:
Haha. Built without a jig to keep everything in a plane, usually the handling would be really slow on a steel bike. Without a jig it would seem a waste of good 531 to build a bike like that.

Please ring this guy up and tell him he's doing it wrong:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AMfK1OS_mc

BTW I have that same Hozan torch, one of my favorites.
Are you saying that he didn't machine and assemble that 4130 frame in a jig before brazing on a bottom bracket lug? Of course he might be like John and be capable of "machining" tubes to a thousandth of an inch accuracy with a pin knife and file.
There you go again Tommy. A "pin knife" whatever is that? I even
goodled it and the closest I can come to it is something to "pin" on
your shirt collar
https://tinyurl.com/yxw28uee
Do you mean that I can trim the end of a steel tube with a plastic
do-dad?

You really are, well, pretty stupid, aren't you.

That was a misspelling of pen knife. But don't look it up because Wikipedia like you, were never educated in the niceties of life. One has to wonder why someone that believes that they can make tube to tube miters of a thousandth of an inch with a file didn't get a job in the space program where such talent would be useful.