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  #101  
Old August 15th 18, 08:09 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Flat repair

On 8/15/2018 12:39 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you.


Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles.

+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles" are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out shopping trolleys.
.


Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.


People like tubeless for some applications where they make
sense. Other people gave up on them in other applications. I
don't feel strongly either way but they are certainly no
panacea.

Regarding weight, at least for road sizes, you're using a
heavier rim liner and a heavier valve assembly plus 55~60
grams of latex to omit a 60~65 gram tube. There may be a
weight savings but it can't be significant.

People like what they like because they like it. That's
fine, and argument enough. I don't see a compelling reason
to change, certainly not from 300g tubulars. YMMV, and in
your particular case it does.

p.s. I drove a wire-wheeled car, the last 8 years with the
latest hi-zoot Pirellis and matching tubes. Worked fine. Now
that I'm a grownup, I like pressed steel wheels with
tubeless, which are lighter.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


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  #102  
Old August 15th 18, 08:49 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Flat repair

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:52:52 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 1:45:33 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 23:02:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/14/2018 5:02 PM,
wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 1:35:34 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 12:47:13 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Snipped

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4i0ttwnSszY

pfff.....

Lou

I like how they used a TUBE for the repair. Might as well just use a tube tire in the first place.

Cheers

Why? So that you can get five times the flats as a tubeless setup gets?

Let me ask you again - why do you suppose that every other rubber tired vehicle has changed to tubeless?

You're beginning to sound like Joerg. "Why don't bicycles have chains as
strong as motorcycles? Why don't bicycles have integrated charging
systems and heated seats and power windows? Why don't bicycles protect
us from the rain?"

The requirements are different, so the engineering is different.
Bicycles don't have spare tires already mounted on wheels inside their
trunks. That alone is very significant.


His question is an exaggeration. Every rubber tired vehicle does not
use tubeless.

I was looking at the wheel chairs in the Hospital the other day and
they have foam filled tires.

I came across an article that stated that many "Container" carrier
trucks are still equipped with tubes.
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-tubed-...ses-and-trucks

Then I came across the Goodyear catalog for aircraft tires and see
that the "standard" tire for the 747 is a tube tire.

I could go on (and probably on) but it is obvious that the statement
that "every other rubber tired vehicle has changed to tubeless" just
isn't correct.

Or perhaps it is a matter of "every tire that HE KNOWS ABOUT" is
tubeless which says something about his qualifications as a tire
expert.


John, do you even bother to read the stuff you are posting? It plainly states in that article that they don't have tubeless tires because of the expense of upgrading to new style tires and rims.


Certainly I read it and I did read that the cost was the deciding
factor... but the other poster wrote "why do you suppose that every
other rubber tired vehicle has changed to tubeless?", which I was
responding to:

It seems to me that if a significant number of vehicles have not
converted to tubeless, for financial, or whatever, reason that to
blatantly argue that "EVERY OTHER RUBBER TIRED VEHICLE HAS CHANGED"
is simply an example of ignorance of the subject. Hardly a statement
that someone that was really familiar with the subject would make.



If your argument is based, as most here appear, to be that you have an old bike for which conversion would cost more than the worth of the bike why the hell don't you argue THAT instead of using the phony arguments that they would be difficult to repair if you got the same sort of flat that would also make a tube tire worthless. The dumb-ass comment that you could fix one of these slashed open tires with a candybar wrapper is pretty inane. Or the claim that they don't get as good a performance when even the testing shows the theory of rolling resistance being less on a tire with less mass to e true as it is in every other case.

I made no argument. I simply called attention to the fact that the
individual that stated "why do you suppose that every other rubber
tired vehicle has changed to tubeless?" simply didn't know what
he/she/it was talking about.

An expert in misinformation, one might say.



Look, I've been riding for 40 years. I've had a lot of flats. I have never successfully repaired a slashed tire with either an innertube section or ever found a candybar wrapper that would possibly hold anything together against the inflation pressure of a high performance tire.


slash ~ verb common
1. cut with sweeping strokes; as with an ax or machete

Do you mean that someone attacked your bicycle with a machete?

Or did you really use the term to exaggerate your description of the
tire damage and make it sound much worse then the actual?


As a sailor I could also repair sails with heavy needles and nylon string.

I'm pretty sure you could sew up a tire well enough to make it home
against inflation pressure but again - that would work equally well
with a tube or tubeless tire.

As a Sailor (live aboard for more then 10 years) I might repair a sail
with needles and thread but string is what you tie up Christmas
presents with.

Since Joerg complains of sidewall slashes from the way he rides I could understand his arguing against it. But 10:1 his sidewall failures are punctures that a tubeless setup would allow him to continue riding.

  #103  
Old August 15th 18, 09:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Flat repair

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 10:52:54 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 1:45:33 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 23:02:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/14/2018 5:02 PM, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 1:35:34 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 12:47:13 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Snipped

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4i0ttwnSszY

pfff.....

Lou

I like how they used a TUBE for the repair. Might as well just use a tube tire in the first place.

Cheers

Why? So that you can get five times the flats as a tubeless setup gets?

Let me ask you again - why do you suppose that every other rubber tired vehicle has changed to tubeless?

You're beginning to sound like Joerg. "Why don't bicycles have chains as
strong as motorcycles? Why don't bicycles have integrated charging
systems and heated seats and power windows? Why don't bicycles protect
us from the rain?"

The requirements are different, so the engineering is different.
Bicycles don't have spare tires already mounted on wheels inside their
trunks. That alone is very significant.


His question is an exaggeration. Every rubber tired vehicle does not
use tubeless.

I was looking at the wheel chairs in the Hospital the other day and
they have foam filled tires.

I came across an article that stated that many "Container" carrier
trucks are still equipped with tubes.
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-tubed-...ses-and-trucks

Then I came across the Goodyear catalog for aircraft tires and see
that the "standard" tire for the 747 is a tube tire.

I could go on (and probably on) but it is obvious that the statement
that "every other rubber tired vehicle has changed to tubeless" just
isn't correct.

Or perhaps it is a matter of "every tire that HE KNOWS ABOUT" is
tubeless which says something about his qualifications as a tire
expert.


John, do you even bother to read the stuff you are posting? It plainly states in that article that they don't have tubeless tires because of the expense of upgrading to new style tires and rims.

If your argument is based, as most here appear, to be that you have an old bike for which conversion would cost more than the worth of the bike why the hell don't you argue THAT instead of using the phony arguments that they would be difficult to repair if you got the same sort of flat that would also make a tube tire worthless. The dumb-ass comment that you could fix one of these slashed open tires with a candybar wrapper is pretty inane. Or the claim that they don't get as good a performance when even the testing shows the theory of rolling resistance being less on a tire with less mass to e true as it is in every other case.

Look, I've been riding for 40 years. I've had a lot of flats. I have never successfully repaired a slashed tire with either an innertube section or ever found a candybar wrapper that would possibly hold anything together against the inflation pressure of a high performance tire.


I don't think anyone is proposing a dollar-bill or candy bar wrapper boot as a permanent fix. They do work as a temporary fix until you get home. I've stuffed dollar bills into numerous tires with sizable slashes and gotten home.

Sidewall cuts are not very relevant in determining whether you go tubeless or not -- except that going tubeless doesn't let you off the hook for carrying a spare tube. And yes, your repair would involve stuffing a tube and a boot inside a goopy tire with a really tight bead, but then again, maybe you got to avoid five other punctures that you didn't have to fix (who knows), so I don't see that as a huge disincentive. Again, it comes down to whether flat-avoidance and increased performance (at least under some circumstances) outweighs the expense of tubeless and inconvenience (adding sealant, stems, dealing with goop). Joerg would be a poster child for tubeless with all of the goathoads in his area. Tubeless is perfect for that sort of small, sealable puncture.

-- Jay Beattie.

As for performance, with a nice set of clinchers and latex tubes, its really hard to do much better performance-wise.
  #104  
Old August 16th 18, 12:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Flat repair

On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you.


Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles.

+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles" are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out shopping trolleys.
.


Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.


I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six personal
bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique stored in the garage
attic. They have five different wheel sizes. Surely you don't want me to
run out and convert them all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down that path,
I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if there is a
problem, because I do get recruited to help fix bike problems. I'm not
looking forward to dealing with the goop.

--
- Frank Krygowski

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #105  
Old August 16th 18, 01:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 10,538
Default Flat repair

On 8/15/2018 1:52 PM, wrote:
The dumb-ass comment that you could fix one of these slashed open tires with a candybar wrapper is pretty inane. Or the claim that they don't get as good a performance when even the testing shows the theory of rolling resistance being less on a tire with less mass to e true as it is in every other case.

Look, I've been riding for 40 years. I've had a lot of flats. I have never successfully repaired a slashed tire with either an innertube section or ever found a candybar wrapper that would possibly hold anything together against the inflation pressure of a high performance tire.


My worst flat repair was on tour in North Dakota. It was the odd-sized
front tire of my daughter's Terry bicycle. The cut in the tire was well
over 1/2" long. I used a standard patch on the inside of the tire, plus
duct tape, plus cardboard to ride something like 10 miles to a motel.

There were no tires that size available for hundreds of miles. We had to
contact Terry Bicycles to have one air-shipped out to the next bike shop
on our route. So in the motel I sewed the tire back together as well as
I could, and re-did the boots, etc. And my daughter rode that repaired
tire for well over 100 miles to that next bike shop.

So that's what happened with at tire with an inner tube. I don't know
what would have happened with a tubeless tire. In particular, I don't
know how well a patch would adhere to the inner surface of a tire that's
wet with sealant.

--
- Frank Krygowski

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

  #106  
Old August 16th 18, 01:16 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Flat repair

On 8/15/2018 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18
wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch
kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump
because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless
systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology
used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is
not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue,
don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to
their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test
conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far
easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a
motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles"
are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out
shopping trolleys.
.


Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the
weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so
reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather
than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of
similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that
has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.


I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six
personal bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique
stored in the garage attic. They have five different wheel
sizes. Surely you don't want me to run out and convert them
all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down
that path, I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a
compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if
there is a problem, because I do get recruited to help fix
bike problems. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the
goop.


If it were possible to make a proper tubeless bcycle tire
with out goop, we'd all ride them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #107  
Old August 16th 18, 01:49 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Flat repair

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 5:16:32 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2018 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18
wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch
kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump
because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless
systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology
used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is
not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue,
don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to
their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test
conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far
easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a
motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles"
are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out
shopping trolleys.
.

Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the
weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so
reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather
than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of
similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that
has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.


I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six
personal bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique
stored in the garage attic. They have five different wheel
sizes. Surely you don't want me to run out and convert them
all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down
that path, I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a
compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if
there is a problem, because I do get recruited to help fix
bike problems. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the
goop.


If it were possible to make a proper tubeless bcycle tire
with out goop, we'd all ride them.


And why don't they make them with radial steel belts and a 40,000 mile warranty! I certainly don't have to fix flats on my car every few weeks or months, and I don't have to put goop in the tires either -- and when they get soft, a light goes off on my dashboard. Why isn't that standard equipment on bicycles! I'm outraged and have decided to protest in front of a bicycle shop.
https://cdni.rt.com/files/2018.07/ar...d13a8b45d1.jpg That was my last protest about poor road conditions in winter and traction loss on ice. Abolish ice! Right on! Stay strong my brothers!

-- Jay Beattie.

  #108  
Old August 16th 18, 02:52 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Flat repair

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 19:16:46 -0500, AMuzi wrote:

On 8/15/2018 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18
wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch
kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump
because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless
systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology
used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is
not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue,
don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to
their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test
conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far
easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a
motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles"
are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out
shopping trolleys.
.

Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the
weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so
reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather
than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of
similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that
has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.


I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six
personal bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique
stored in the garage attic. They have five different wheel
sizes. Surely you don't want me to run out and convert them
all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down
that path, I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a
compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if
there is a problem, because I do get recruited to help fix
bike problems. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the
goop.


If it were possible to make a proper tubeless bcycle tire
with out goop, we'd all ride them.


If one wants "goop" in their tires there is no need to convert to
tubeless as, if I'm not mistaken, they still sell sealant to inject
into the tubes.

I remember when "Green Slime" first came out and folks were running
about and worrying about whether they were injecting enough, or maybe
too much, and bragging about never having another flat tire.

Today, try going on the next club ride and announcing that, "I just
put green slime in my tires", and see the reaction you get :-)
  #109  
Old August 16th 18, 03:29 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Flat repair

On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 19:02:41 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles" are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out shopping trolleys.
.


Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.


I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six personal
bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique stored in the garage
attic. They have five different wheel sizes. Surely you don't want me to
run out and convert them all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down that path,
I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if there is a
problem, because I do get recruited to help fix bike problems. I'm not
looking forward to dealing with the goop.



Frank, don't you remember "Green Slime", a sealant that one could
inject into bicycle tubes and sealed leaks? I believe first marketed
in the late 1980's some time and still being sold.

Given that the primary advantage that is being touted for these NEW
tubeless tires seems to be leak prevention it seems that the slime,
that is sold, both for tubeless and tube tires, would accomplish the
same thing much cheaper. Just inject it into the existing tube and
ride away. No special rims, new tires, or anything. And, if you decide
you don't like it just change the tube.

Amazon is selling a 8 oz tube of Green Slime for $4.41 and the company
recommends a 4 oz dose per tire. or some $2.20 per wheel. Match that
Tubeless :-)

I remember reading, years ago, glorified descriptions in the bike
magazines that all seemed to promise "no more leaks" just as the
tubeless folks do today.

  #110  
Old August 16th 18, 04:20 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Miles
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 40
Default Flat repair

On Mon, 13 Aug 2018 14:00:22 -0700, sms wrote:

Avoid Mr. Tuffy liners at all costs. If you do use liners, use a thicker
inner tube because the liners tend to cause flats where the two ends
meet.


I've used Tuffys for years, commuting in cold (but generally above-
freezing) wet weather. Never had a problem such as what you describe.
Inner tubes were normal thickness.

They do make the bike more sluggish, but it's worth it in nasty weather.

 




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