bar-end shifters

Greg Tomlinson writes:

Definitely. Any files, such as photos, that I put a date in the
name I do this way.

and because it is easier to infer the day and month fields.

Unless the day is 13 or over it's still got ambiguity. The above
could be January 6 or June 1.

Actually, I write always write it out: 6 January 2006.

Yes, the pretty much eliminates any ambiguity.

Interestingly, the US Military has a defined DATE-TIME GROUP:

http://www.dtic.mil/doctrine/jel/dod...m/d/00364.html

from which I extracted 14:46 07JAN06 which I prefer because the date
always has three alpha characters separating the day and year, that
have two digits. I notice Microsoft XP uses this format, spaces or
dashes optional. 24-hour clock should be standard on all documents
and timetable/schedules as they are in most countries of the world.

Jobst Brandt

Mark Janeba wrote:
The Wogster wrote:

Tim McNamara wrote:

"bfd" writes:


Can you explain why "brifters" are less *less flexible" than
bar-ends or dt shifters?




"Brifters"

1. Indexed only, and only for one gearing configuration (e.g.,
7/8/9/10 speed depending on age). If you never have to change
wheels for any reason, probably not an issue.

2. Little tolerance for bent derailleur hanger after a crash.

3. Location makes damage to shifting mechanism more vulnerable in a
crash. I saw an Ergo lever smashed to smithereens in such a
situation, leaving the rider unable to shift or brake on that
side.

4. In the case of Shimano, not serviceable.

5. As a function of indexing, not tolerant of having to replace the
derailleur with a different make (or sometimes different model) in
the event of damage.

6. As a function of indexing, vulnerable to shifting problems related
to cables getting gunked up.

Bar-end shifters:

1. None of the above limitations.

2. Less convenient in racing situations.

3. Broader choice of brake lever shapes to fit larger or smaller
hands.



So issues, 1, 2 ,5 and 6 are indexing related, rather then brifter
related, IOW these are problems any indexed shifting mechanism would
have even the old 3speed T-shift can have these issues, the trigger
shift MTB mechanisms also have these issues.


I think the point is that bar-cons can be had in models that do *both*
index and non-index. AFAICT, there are no brifters that can do
non-index, at least not in the rear. Because of this, the issues are
*not* separable as you suggest - it's "buy brifters, get indexing only".


However most of these problems are indexed-shifting issues, rather then
specifically brifter problems. Indexed shifting has issues, part of the
problem is that you have the indexing happening at the shifter, meaning
the cable is part of the process. Suppose you took a stepper motor, a
dynamo, a capacitor and a small circuit board, run a three wire cable
to the shifter, which becomes a simple 3-way switch. When you shift,
the switch completes a circuit, the circuit board logic then causes the
stepper motor to move the deraileur, which could be by pulling a short
cable. Now the indexing happens at the deraileur, rather then at the
shifter.

W

In article , The Wogster
wrote:

Tim McNamara wrote:
"bfd" writes:


Can you explain why "brifters" are less *less flexible" than
bar-ends or dt shifters?


"Brifters"

1. Indexed only, and only for one gearing configuration (e.g.,
7/8/9/10 speed depending on age). If you never have to change
wheels for any reason, probably not an issue.

2. Little tolerance for bent derailleur hanger after a crash.

3. Location makes damage to shifting mechanism more vulnerable in a
crash. I saw an Ergo lever smashed to smithereens in such a
situation, leaving the rider unable to shift or brake on that
side.

4. In the case of Shimano, not serviceable.

5. As a function of indexing, not tolerant of having to replace the
derailleur with a different make (or sometimes different model) in
the event of damage.

6. As a function of indexing, vulnerable to shifting problems related
to cables getting gunked up.

Bar-end shifters:

1. None of the above limitations.

2. Less convenient in racing situations.

3. Broader choice of brake lever shapes to fit larger or smaller
hands.

So issues, 1, 2 ,5 and 6 are indexing related, rather then brifter
related, IOW these are problems any indexed shifting mechanism would
have even the old 3speed T-shift can have these issues, the trigger
shift MTB mechanisms also have these issues. The fact that Campy can
make one that can be serviced...

snip

The last time I looked all brifters were indexed so that makes the
issue brifter related. And the OP's question was: "What benefits do the
Shimano Dura-Ace bar-end shifters offer, compared with
modern integrated shifters?" Not D/T, T-shifters, etc...

Luke

Tim McNamara wrote:
The Wogster writes:


Tim McNamara wrote:

"bfd" writes:


Can you explain why "brifters" are less *less flexible" than
bar-ends or dt shifters?

"Brifters"

1. Indexed only, and only for one gearing configuration
(e.g., 7/8/9/10 speed depending on age). If you never have to
change wheels for any reason, probably not an issue.

2. Little tolerance for bent derailleur hanger after a crash.

3. Location makes damage to shifting mechanism more vulnerable in
a crash. I saw an Ergo lever smashed to smithereens in such a
situation, leaving the rider unable to shift or brake on that side.

4. In the case of Shimano, not serviceable.

5. As a function of indexing, not tolerant of having to replace
the derailleur with a different make (or sometimes different model)
in the event of damage.

6. As a function of indexing, vulnerable to shifting problems
related to cables getting gunked up.

So issues, 1, 2 ,5 and 6 are indexing related, rather then brifter
related, IOW these are problems any indexed shifting mechanism would
have even the old 3speed T-shift can have these issues, the trigger
shift MTB mechanisms also have these issues.


It's only a problem with an index-only shifter, which is the case for
both Ergo and STI but not for bar-end or downtube shifters. Both
bar-end and downtube shifters have a friction shifting option. Which
BTW is part of why I use bar-end shifters on my brevet bikes, so that
I have less risk of a mechanical problem affecting my ability to
finish an event. Of course, I think and have always thought that
indexing was an unneccesary invention. It's not like friction
shifting was harder to learn than index shifting.

3 speed trigger shifters would not be vulnerable to #2 and #5, of
course, and relatively safe from #3. #1 is unlikely to be a problem,
but #6 is something I saw many times at the bike shops I worked at.


The fact that Campy can make one that can be serviced, and Shimano
can't simply means that Shimano used a lousy designer and/or cheap
manufacturing process. So the only real brifter issue is that it
can be a lousy location in a crash.


No, there are basically two issues: that they are index-only and the
location causing a vulnerability. There is a third issue in the case
of Shimano, which is the cable routing interfering with being able to
use a handlebar bag, but since current trends in steering geometry
tend to make bikes handle badly with a handlebar bag this is not
likely to be a common problem.

Index problems, can be problems with any index shifter, the index
shifters on my MTB could suffer any of these issues, considering that
they are Shimano, they could suffer all of the index problems that
brifters do.

However because the shifter and brake are together, how many
crashes, has it prevented, simply because the rider could brake or
shift without needing to move their hands, very much.


You're appealing to a question that can't be answered and therefore
can prove nothing. But it's a silly point to try to make. The
location of the brake lever is exactly the same, and it's pretty much
impossible to crash because you're in the "wrong" gear. If you need
both handson the bars for some reason, you just defer shifting for a
while.

You could crash, if you need to brake, after you have moved your hand to
shift. Putting the shifters beside the brake lever, makes it a short
distance to perform the shift, and get back to the brake hoods where you
can easily brake.

Perhaps a bigger issue, is that the indexing should be built into the
deraileur and not the shifter, or a separate mechanism near the deraileur.

W

In article ,
"G.T." wrote:


I prefer 2006-01-06 because alpha-numeric sort gives
chronological sort,

Definitely. Any files, such as photos, that I put a date in the name I
do this way.

and because it is easier to infer the
day and month fields.

Unless the day is 13 or over it's still got ambiguity. The above could
be January 6 or June 1.

I did say `easier to infer', not unambiguous. Someone
stumbling over 2006-01-06 for the first time is likely to
think
"Hmmm. Year first, then what? Probably month, then day."

--
Michael Press

In article
,
The Wogster wrote:

Index problems, can be problems with any index shifter, the index
shifters on my MTB could suffer any of these issues, considering that
they are Shimano, they could suffer all of the index problems that
brifters do.

Not quite. The indexed shifter on one bike has a total of
25 cm of cable housing (down tube shifters). One might
argue that this is an advantage over other indexed
systems. I stipulate that my down tube shifters and aero
brake levers are a purely aesthetic choice.

I prefer indexed shifting, and consider it an advance in
bicycles. When I have changed the shift lever to pure
friction shifting, I have not liked it.

--
Michael Press

The 520 is the only (to my knowledge) remaining touring model of a
company that (again, to my knowledge) got their start as a major
manufacturer of touring bicycles and products, the very name meaning "a
journey of exploration and/or discovery".

Tourists tend to favor bar-cons for their relative simplicity,
durability, lightness and ability to adjust the front derailer to allow
for chain deflection, especially with the ridiculously large cogsets now
standard. All without giving up the convenience and safety of handlebar
shifting.

- -
These comments compliments of,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

On the side of brifters, I have found there are a couple of situations
where they do hold a slight advantage over Bar-cons

1) Riding in heavy, not so friendly traffic, where it can be tantamount
to suicide to allow your hands to stray more than a few centimeters from
the brakes.

2) Really steep climbs, when most cyclists are on the hoods anyways, and
removing a hand, or even sliding it down to a bar-con can be tricky to
learn or do efficiently.

- -
These comments compliments of,
Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman

My web Site:
http://geocities.com/czcorner

To E-mail me:
ChrisZCorner "at" webtv "dot" net

The Wogster writes:

Index problems, can be problems with any index shifter, the index
shifters on my MTB could suffer any of these issues, considering
that they are Shimano, they could suffer all of the index problems
that brifters do.

OK, the point must not have been explained clearly enough by myself
and the several other people who've addressed this. Every down tube
and bar end shifter of which I am aware can be *either* friction or
indexed. There's a little adjustment on the lever to allow this.

Your "trigger" shifters suffer the same problem as "brifters." We get
that. The equivalent for mountian bikes would be thumbshifters.

You could crash, if you need to brake, after you have moved your
hand to shift. Putting the shifters beside the brake lever, makes
it a short distance to perform the shift, and get back to the brake
hoods where you can easily brake.

Hmmm. I guess I don't have a problem with (1) controlling my bike
one-handed and (2) I can brake from more positions than on the hoods.
Have you ever ridden with downtube or bar end shifters? You're making
problems that basically don't exist.

Perhaps a bigger issue, is that the indexing should be built into
the deraileur and not the shifter, or a separate mechanism near the
deraileur.

There's a reason that it is not in the derailleur. That was already
tried in the past and abandoned. You might enjoy reading _The Dancing
Chain_ by Frank Berto et al.

The Wogster writes:

However most of these problems are indexed-shifting issues, rather
then specifically brifter problems.

It's specifically a brifter problem in that brifters tie you into
index-only modes of shifting and reduce your choices. For most
riders, I suspect, that is not a problem- just like for most people,
the lack of freedom in Windows software is not a problem. For those
of us that find problems in index shifting or in Windows' unfreedom,
there are alternatives like bar-end shifters and GNU/Linux. One of
the great things is that there are choices!

Indexed shifting has issues, part of the problem is that you have
the indexing happening at the shifter, meaning the cable is part of
the process. Suppose you took a stepper motor, a dynamo, a
capacitor and a small circuit board, run a three wire cable to the
shifter, which becomes a simple 3-way switch. When you shift, the
switch completes a circuit, the circuit board logic then causes the
stepper motor to move the deraileur, which could be by pulling a
short cable. Now the indexing happens at the deraileur, rather then
at the shifter.

The virtue of a bicycle, which you seem to not have noticed, is its
simplicity. BTW, this sort of thing has been tried. And abandoned.