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"Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments



 
 
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  #11  
Old August 16th 06, 10:45 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
[email protected]
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Posts: 601
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


Tom Kunich wrote:
wrote in message
ups.com...

steve wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US
is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously
disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?


There is certainly a great degree of social mobility, but not on the
scale found in the US. There are ethnic issues related to this as well.
Nationality is based on ethnicity (despite what folks wish to believe)
which makes integration of "foreigners" difficult. This does not help
the mobility situation. The so-called pro-worker laws that make it hard
to fire people reinforces the old-boy networks where people get jobs
from people they know, or when to some exclusive school with. This of
course happens in the US too, but at least in the US a kid from a
trailer park or the projects who does well in school has a chance of
getting a good job where they can prove their worth. In Europe hiring
"unkowns" like this can be too risky as they can't be fired if they
turn out to be flakes, so people like that have a hard time getting
jobs. This is the real problem with mobility there.


A former in-law of my brother did somewhat well in Germany. He tried to move
to the USA where he believed his business would thrive. The USA wouldn't let
a German immigrate. He moved to Australia and is presently a
multimillionaire. If he could have done that in Germany he'd have stayed.


That is a perfect example of the European "brain drain". I read an
article (in the Economist of all places?) which said something like
100,000 (or some other huge number) European higher education students
in the US do not plan to go back. It was like 90% of the students.

Joseph

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  #13  
Old August 16th 06, 11:33 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Gabe Brovedani
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Posts: 52
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

Tom Kunich wrote:
"Revtom" wrote in message
oups.com...

Unsubstantiated accusations

The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US.


are followed by wishful thinking

This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability
if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
simply by talking to any factory worker.


Of course, one can read more widely and get closer to the truth. The
recent Economist article has already been cited. Here are others:

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0127/p21s01-coop.html

http://www.cipa-apex.org/toomuch/art...05/May23a.html

and an interesting summary of the research:

http://www.urban.org/publications/406722.html

As an immigrant and naturalized citizen the great appeal of the US is
that amidst the clutter and noise of the extremists, there is the calm
center where reasoned discussion prevails. Although, of late, it seems
that the center has shrunk or maybe it's just because I'm spending my
time on rbr.

Gabe Brovedani
  #14  
Old August 16th 06, 11:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Carl Sundquist
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Posts: 1,810
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


"Jack Maars" wrote in message
news:Q%LEg.410631$Mn5.87970@pd7tw3no...

wrote in message
ups.com...


Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success
serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving
away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of
Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe.


Yea, now it's Dope or answer the phone in a call center.


Actually, it seems Euro peloton riders who have to retire unexpectedly early
work in construction


  #15  
Old August 16th 06, 11:56 PM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Carl Sundquist
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Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in message
nk.net...
"Revtom" wrote in message
oups.com...
The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US.


See? I told you that idiots are everywhere.

Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median
income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low -
Miami - are $35K/year.


Try Arkansas or Mississippi for very low wages and 'brain drain'.


  #16  
Old August 17th 06, 12:27 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
B. Lafferty
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Posts: 612
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments


"Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote in message
nk.net...
"Revtom" wrote in message
oups.com...
The rigid class system in the US is rarely spoken of, and if one does
mention it, the neo-cons immediately cry out "class warfare!!". They
don't want any attention drawn to the rapidly disappearing middle class
of the US.


See? I told you that idiots are everywhere.

Why imagine the fright Europeans have when they discover that the median
income for the "lower" classes in a place where wages are very low -
Miami - are $35K/year.

What's more, 95% of ALL taxes are paid by the upper half of all income
earners.

Did you know that you can own your own home and have a new car and be on
welfare?

This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their
ability if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can
discover simply by talking to any factory worker.

Too bad that revtom doesn't understand what he doesn't understand.



Read and learn. http://www.classism.org/index.php


  #17  
Old August 17th 06, 12:57 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
RonSonic
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Posts: 2,658
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

On 16 Aug 2006 13:55:47 -0700, wrote:


steve wrote:
Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?

thanks,
steve
--
"The accused will now make a bogus statement."
James Joyce


Is this in response to the usual stereotype that bicycle racing success
serves to rescue destitute European men from dismal futures slaving
away in coal mines? People have been reading too many back-issues of
Winning Magazine again. Ergo, Dope or grab a pick-axe.


There was a great chapter in a book some years ago interviewing some retired
riders. These were all old domestiques who were universally owners of a pub,
inn, bike shop, service station or other like business. The tale they all told
was of supporting their leader in the Tour and being rewarded with a stage win
that provided the money for them to buy into a business and provide for their
future.

Precapitalist - almost feudal.

Ron
  #18  
Old August 17th 06, 12:59 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
RonSonic
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Posts: 2,658
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

On Wed, 16 Aug 2006 19:56:22 GMT, "steve" wrote:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?



"Americans have no need of communism. They change occupations and social
standing the way a European changes shirts." Karl Marx, Das Kapital

Ron
  #19  
Old August 17th 06, 07:12 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Michael Press
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Posts: 1,100
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

In article ,
"steve" wrote:

Im hoping some of our European friends will comment here. I know the US is
famous for class mobility, but I was under the impression that class
immobility was a thing of the past even in Europe... especially after the
two world wars shook up the social structure. Bob obviously disagrees..and
he's been there, which gives him a big advantage over me (a "dumbass", no
doubt).

What do our European friends think? Rigid class structure and social
pressure to stay put? Or is social mobility now the norm?


I am not European. The rich say that the poor will always
be with us. Which is to say there will always be a class
system. Those who decry the class system whether it be
overt or de facto are those who most want to join the
ruling class.

--
Michael Press
  #20  
Old August 17th 06, 08:47 AM posted to rec.bicycles.racing
Bob Martin
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Posts: 1,424
Default "Rigid Class System in Europe" Bob Roll Comments

in 523429 20060816 222509 "Tom Kunich" cyclintom@yahoo. com wrote:

This is the class system that people in the United States are decrying.
Moreover, EVERY person in the USA can move up to the limits of their ability
if they wish. In Europe that simply isn't the case as you can discover
simply by talking to any factory worker.


********, Tom (as usual).

Both Margaret Thatcher and John Major came from humble beginnings.

The majority of Britain's wealthy people are "self-made".
 




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