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  #121  
Old August 16th 18, 04:59 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Duane[_2_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 401
Default Flat repair

On 16/08/2018 9:04 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:25:54 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 02:40:52 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 10:02:24 AM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 23:18:27 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 2:16:32 AM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2018 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18
wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch
kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump
because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless
systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology
used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is
not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue,
don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to
their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test
conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far
easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a
motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles"
are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out
shopping trolleys.
.

Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the
weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so
reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather
than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of
similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that
has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.

I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six
personal bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique
stored in the garage attic. They have five different wheel
sizes. Surely you don't want me to run out and convert them
all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down
that path, I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a
compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if
there is a problem, because I do get recruited to help fix
bike problems. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the
goop.


If it were possible to make a proper tubeless bcycle tire
with out goop, we'd all ride them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Right. Goop is the reason I not even consider tubeless. Up to the last tire test in TOUR magazine the best tubeless tires had a higher RR compared to the best clincher tires. Now they are on par. They are a bit heavier and harder to mount. That would be all manageable for me but dealing with the goop not.

Lou

But from reading posts here it seemed like the anti-flat goop was main
argument for using tubeless.

Without goop I think the chance of a pinchflat is much lower so you can ride with lower pressures for traction reasons or comfort. That is an advantage riding off road on a cross bike or MTB. Pinchflats on a roadbike is a no issue for me. My flats on the roadbike are almost exlusively caused by small glass pieces or chips of rocks. For that you need the goop to make the tubeless tire self sealant.

Lou


Why the furor about tubeless and no flats. After all they have been
making goop to inject into tire tubes and making them self sealing for
about 30 years now. Strange that no one seems to be using that
although it is considerably cheaper - about 2.00 a wheel.


Why you ask me? Carl Fogel (how is he BTW) used that green stuff and I didn't know anyone who patched more flats than him. I don't think that green goop works for pinch flats. Tubeless does by default; no tube to pinch. For road bikes pinch flats aren't a problem at least not for me. Off road with a crossbike with 32-35 mm wide tires it is because you want to run them at low pressure for traction. If I gonna try tubeless it will be on my crossbike but without the goop.


Pinch flats on a road bike are mostly a problem if you run lower
pressure for a more comfortable ride. Very common here in Quebec with
the crummy roads. That's what I like about my HED wheels. With a 23mm
rim and 23mm tires I can run it at the recommended 95 psi.

As for the tubeless or goop or whatever I guess if I had more problems
with flats I might investigate other options but for me, it's just not
much of a problem.

Ads
  #122  
Old August 16th 18, 05:14 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
John B. Slocomb
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 144
Default Flat repair

On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 07:41:47 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 4:00:24 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 06:04:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:25:54 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 02:40:52 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 10:02:24 AM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 23:18:27 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 2:16:32 AM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2018 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18
wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch
kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump
because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless
systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology
used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is
not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue,
don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to
their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test
conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far
easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a
motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles"
are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out
shopping trolleys.
.

Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the
weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so
reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather
than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of
similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that
has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.

I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six
personal bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique
stored in the garage attic. They have five different wheel
sizes. Surely you don't want me to run out and convert them
all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down
that path, I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a
compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if
there is a problem, because I do get recruited to help fix
bike problems. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the
goop.


If it were possible to make a proper tubeless bcycle tire
with out goop, we'd all ride them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Right. Goop is the reason I not even consider tubeless. Up to the last tire test in TOUR magazine the best tubeless tires had a higher RR compared to the best clincher tires. Now they are on par. They are a bit heavier and harder to mount. That would be all manageable for me but dealing with the goop not.

Lou

But from reading posts here it seemed like the anti-flat goop was main
argument for using tubeless.

Without goop I think the chance of a pinchflat is much lower so you can ride with lower pressures for traction reasons or comfort. That is an advantage riding off road on a cross bike or MTB. Pinchflats on a roadbike is a no issue for me. My flats on the roadbike are almost exlusively caused by small glass pieces or chips of rocks. For that you need the goop to make the tubeless tire self sealant.

Lou

Why the furor about tubeless and no flats. After all they have been
making goop to inject into tire tubes and making them self sealing for
about 30 years now. Strange that no one seems to be using that
although it is considerably cheaper - about 2.00 a wheel.

Why you ask me? Carl Fogel (how is he BTW) used that green stuff and I didn't know anyone who patched more flats than him. I don't think that green goop works for pinch flats. Tubeless does by default; no tube to pinch. For road bikes pinch flats aren't a problem at least not for me. Off road with a crossbike with 32-35 mm wide tires it is because you want to run them at low pressure for traction. If I gonna try tubeless it will be on my crossbike but without the goop.

Lou


I adjust the tire pressure to manage pinch flats.


It is a compromize between comfort, traction and vulnerablity for pinchflats. Off road on a crossbike traction is more important. Do you ride off road on a crossbike with 32 mm wide tires?


I don't ride off road at all. The bicycle fraternity, in the late 19th
century, were very active in lobbying for the building of decent
roads, and joined by the emerging automobile users were relatively
successful.

Given the efforts of the early cyclists I much prefer to ride on the
paved roads that they were largely responsible for promoting :-)


It is a little
optimistic, I think, to expect a tube/tire not develop leaks is you
smash it flat between two hard surfaces at high speeds.


I expect a tubeless tire with sturdier side walls to be more robust for pinchflats. It is silly to ridicule someones choice.

This applies to you and to Tom. I think Andrew got it right. Sometimes
tubeless makes sense, sometimes it is a solution looking for a
problem.

Lou


I don't remember ridiculing anyone about their selection. What I do
remember ridiculing was the statement that "used on every other rubber
tired vehicle in the world". In fact I believe I provided examples of
many rubber tired vehicle that do not use tubeless tires.

And I have pointed out that the loudly voiced explanation of the
advantages of the tubeless sealing was nothing new as tire sealants
had been sold since the 1980's and possible earlier.
  #123  
Old August 16th 18, 05:35 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 5,870
Default Flat repair

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 8:54:36 AM UTC-7, duane wrote:
On 16/08/2018 10:41 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 4:00:24 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 06:04:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:25:54 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 02:40:52 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 10:02:24 AM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 23:18:27 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 2:16:32 AM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2018 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18
wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch
kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump
because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless
systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology
used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is
not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue,
don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to
their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test
conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far
easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a
motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles"
are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out
shopping trolleys.
.

Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the
weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so
reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather
than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of
similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that
has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.

I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six
personal bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique
stored in the garage attic. They have five different wheel
sizes. Surely you don't want me to run out and convert them
all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down
that path, I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a
compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if
there is a problem, because I do get recruited to help fix
bike problems. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the
goop.


If it were possible to make a proper tubeless bcycle tire
with out goop, we'd all ride them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Right. Goop is the reason I not even consider tubeless. Up to the last tire test in TOUR magazine the best tubeless tires had a higher RR compared to the best clincher tires. Now they are on par. They are a bit heavier and harder to mount. That would be all manageable for me but dealing with the goop not.

Lou

But from reading posts here it seemed like the anti-flat goop was main
argument for using tubeless.

Without goop I think the chance of a pinchflat is much lower so you can ride with lower pressures for traction reasons or comfort. That is an advantage riding off road on a cross bike or MTB. Pinchflats on a roadbike is a no issue for me. My flats on the roadbike are almost exlusively caused by small glass pieces or chips of rocks. For that you need the goop to make the tubeless tire self sealant.

Lou

Why the furor about tubeless and no flats. After all they have been
making goop to inject into tire tubes and making them self sealing for
about 30 years now. Strange that no one seems to be using that
although it is considerably cheaper - about 2.00 a wheel.

Why you ask me? Carl Fogel (how is he BTW) used that green stuff and I didn't know anyone who patched more flats than him. I don't think that green goop works for pinch flats. Tubeless does by default; no tube to pinch. For road bikes pinch flats aren't a problem at least not for me. Off road with a crossbike with 32-35 mm wide tires it is because you want to run them at low pressure for traction. If I gonna try tubeless it will be on my crossbike but without the goop.

Lou

I adjust the tire pressure to manage pinch flats.


It is a compromize between comfort, traction and vulnerablity for pinchflats. Off road on a crossbike traction is more important. Do you ride off road on a crossbike with 32 mm wide tires?

It is a little
optimistic, I think, to expect a tube/tire not develop leaks is you
smash it flat between two hard surfaces at high speeds.


I expect a tubeless tire with sturdier side walls to be more robust for pinchflats. It is silly to ridicule someones choice. This applies to you and to Tom. I think Andrew got it right. Sometimes tubeless makes sense, sometimes it is a solution looking for a problem.


+1


I agree, except with the statement that "It is silly to ridicule someones choice." That is demonstrably untrue.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/0c...41635450a3.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.
  #124  
Old August 16th 18, 06:43 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
AMuzi
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 13,447
Default Flat repair

On 8/16/2018 11:35 AM, jbeattie wrote:
On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 8:54:36 AM UTC-7, duane wrote:
On 16/08/2018 10:41 AM, wrote:
On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 4:00:24 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 06:04:48 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:25:54 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 02:40:52 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 10:02:24 AM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 23:18:27 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 2:16:32 AM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2018 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18
wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch
kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump
because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless
systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology
used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is
not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue,
don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to
their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test
conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far
easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a
motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles"
are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out
shopping trolleys.
.

Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the
weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so
reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather
than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of
similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that
has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.

I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six
personal bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique
stored in the garage attic. They have five different wheel
sizes. Surely you don't want me to run out and convert them
all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down
that path, I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a
compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if
there is a problem, because I do get recruited to help fix
bike problems. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the
goop.


If it were possible to make a proper tubeless bcycle tire
with out goop, we'd all ride them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Right. Goop is the reason I not even consider tubeless. Up to the last tire test in TOUR magazine the best tubeless tires had a higher RR compared to the best clincher tires. Now they are on par. They are a bit heavier and harder to mount. That would be all manageable for me but dealing with the goop not.

Lou

But from reading posts here it seemed like the anti-flat goop was main
argument for using tubeless.

Without goop I think the chance of a pinchflat is much lower so you can ride with lower pressures for traction reasons or comfort. That is an advantage riding off road on a cross bike or MTB. Pinchflats on a roadbike is a no issue for me. My flats on the roadbike are almost exlusively caused by small glass pieces or chips of rocks. For that you need the goop to make the tubeless tire self sealant.

Lou

Why the furor about tubeless and no flats. After all they have been
making goop to inject into tire tubes and making them self sealing for
about 30 years now. Strange that no one seems to be using that
although it is considerably cheaper - about 2.00 a wheel.

Why you ask me? Carl Fogel (how is he BTW) used that green stuff and I didn't know anyone who patched more flats than him. I don't think that green goop works for pinch flats. Tubeless does by default; no tube to pinch. For road bikes pinch flats aren't a problem at least not for me. Off road with a crossbike with 32-35 mm wide tires it is because you want to run them at low pressure for traction. If I gonna try tubeless it will be on my crossbike but without the goop.

Lou

I adjust the tire pressure to manage pinch flats.

It is a compromize between comfort, traction and vulnerablity for pinchflats. Off road on a crossbike traction is more important. Do you ride off road on a crossbike with 32 mm wide tires?

It is a little
optimistic, I think, to expect a tube/tire not develop leaks is you
smash it flat between two hard surfaces at high speeds.

I expect a tubeless tire with sturdier side walls to be more robust for pinchflats. It is silly to ridicule someones choice. This applies to you and to Tom. I think Andrew got it right. Sometimes tubeless makes sense, sometimes it is a solution looking for a problem.


+1


I agree, except with the statement that "It is silly to ridicule someones choice." That is demonstrably untrue.
https://i.pinimg.com/originals/e9/0c...41635450a3.jpg

-- Jay Beattie.


ouch.
Can we just stay with cycling?
http://i.pinimg.com/236x/ca/ed/69/ca...2029075847.jpg


--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


  #125  
Old August 16th 18, 10:50 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default Flat repair

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:09:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2018 12:39 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles" are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out shopping trolleys.
.


Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.


People like tubeless for some applications where they make
sense. Other people gave up on them in other applications. I
don't feel strongly either way but they are certainly no
panacea.

Regarding weight, at least for road sizes, you're using a
heavier rim liner and a heavier valve assembly plus 55~60
grams of latex to omit a 60~65 gram tube. There may be a
weight savings but it can't be significant.

People like what they like because they like it. That's
fine, and argument enough. I don't see a compelling reason
to change, certainly not from 300g tubulars. YMMV, and in
your particular case it does.

p.s. I drove a wire-wheeled car, the last 8 years with the
latest hi-zoot Pirellis and matching tubes. Worked fine. Now
that I'm a grownup, I like pressed steel wheels with
tubeless, which are lighter.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Well, I can't argue that people want to ride what they want to ride. I just find it curious that they complain about flats and then won't change over to a tubeless that doesn't get flats.
  #126  
Old August 16th 18, 10:54 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default Flat repair

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:49:35 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 10:52:52 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 1:45:33 AM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Tue, 14 Aug 2018 23:02:14 -0400, Frank Krygowski
wrote:

On 8/14/2018 5:02 PM,
wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 1:35:34 PM UTC-7, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 14, 2018 at 12:47:13 PM UTC-4, wrote:
Snipped

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4i0ttwnSszY

pfff.....

Lou

I like how they used a TUBE for the repair. Might as well just use a tube tire in the first place.

Cheers

Why? So that you can get five times the flats as a tubeless setup gets?

Let me ask you again - why do you suppose that every other rubber tired vehicle has changed to tubeless?

You're beginning to sound like Joerg. "Why don't bicycles have chains as
strong as motorcycles? Why don't bicycles have integrated charging
systems and heated seats and power windows? Why don't bicycles protect
us from the rain?"

The requirements are different, so the engineering is different.
Bicycles don't have spare tires already mounted on wheels inside their
trunks. That alone is very significant.

His question is an exaggeration. Every rubber tired vehicle does not
use tubeless.

I was looking at the wheel chairs in the Hospital the other day and
they have foam filled tires.

I came across an article that stated that many "Container" carrier
trucks are still equipped with tubes.
https://www.quora.com/Why-are-tubed-...ses-and-trucks

Then I came across the Goodyear catalog for aircraft tires and see
that the "standard" tire for the 747 is a tube tire.

I could go on (and probably on) but it is obvious that the statement
that "every other rubber tired vehicle has changed to tubeless" just
isn't correct.

Or perhaps it is a matter of "every tire that HE KNOWS ABOUT" is
tubeless which says something about his qualifications as a tire
expert.


John, do you even bother to read the stuff you are posting? It plainly states in that article that they don't have tubeless tires because of the expense of upgrading to new style tires and rims.


Certainly I read it and I did read that the cost was the deciding
factor... but the other poster wrote "why do you suppose that every
other rubber tired vehicle has changed to tubeless?", which I was
responding to:

It seems to me that if a significant number of vehicles have not
converted to tubeless, for financial, or whatever, reason that to
blatantly argue that "EVERY OTHER RUBBER TIRED VEHICLE HAS CHANGED"
is simply an example of ignorance of the subject. Hardly a statement
that someone that was really familiar with the subject would make.



If your argument is based, as most here appear, to be that you have an old bike for which conversion would cost more than the worth of the bike why the hell don't you argue THAT instead of using the phony arguments that they would be difficult to repair if you got the same sort of flat that would also make a tube tire worthless. The dumb-ass comment that you could fix one of these slashed open tires with a candybar wrapper is pretty inane. Or the claim that they don't get as good a performance when even the testing shows the theory of rolling resistance being less on a tire with less mass to e true as it is in every other case.

I made no argument. I simply called attention to the fact that the
individual that stated "why do you suppose that every other rubber
tired vehicle has changed to tubeless?" simply didn't know what
he/she/it was talking about.

An expert in misinformation, one might say.



Look, I've been riding for 40 years. I've had a lot of flats. I have never successfully repaired a slashed tire with either an innertube section or ever found a candybar wrapper that would possibly hold anything together against the inflation pressure of a high performance tire.


slash ~ verb common
1. cut with sweeping strokes; as with an ax or machete

Do you mean that someone attacked your bicycle with a machete?

Or did you really use the term to exaggerate your description of the
tire damage and make it sound much worse then the actual?


As a sailor I could also repair sails with heavy needles and nylon string.

I'm pretty sure you could sew up a tire well enough to make it home
against inflation pressure but again - that would work equally well
with a tube or tubeless tire.

As a Sailor (live aboard for more then 10 years) I might repair a sail
with needles and thread but string is what you tie up Christmas
presents with.


  #127  
Old August 16th 18, 11:01 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
[email protected]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,261
Default Flat repair

On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:49:35 PM UTC-7, John B. Slocomb wrote:

As a Sailor (live aboard for more then 10 years) I might repair a sail
with needles and thread but string is what you tie up Christmas
presents with.


I also lived aboard for a decade. I also worked on a lot of sails. I also did long distance racing on large sailboats. I'm a life member of the second oldest yacht club on San Francisco bay. And we always called it Sailmakers Yarn or String. Perhaps they have different terms in Outer Mongolia. Thread is for darning the holes in your socks.
  #128  
Old August 16th 18, 11:51 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 385
Default Flat repair

wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48, wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2
cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you.


Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every
other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but
if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock you
in to their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions." when
this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle tire
performance than those of a motorcycles.

+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles" are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out shopping trolleys.
.


Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the weight of a
tube. What's more, because the sealant is so reliable you can use lighter
racing-style tires rather than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or
the others of similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that has minimal
rolling resistance in the tests.


Tubless requires a stiffer sidewall and adds weight, my road bike is a
gravel bike, tubed tyres tend to be about 320g tubeless tends to be 400g
ish thus it’s frankly fairly even.

There are very few Tubeless road race tyres, all have a reputation for
fragility, ie they get cut to ribbons.

Personally the hassle of set up isn’t worth it thus far for my
MTB/gravel/commute bike, I tend to run similar pressures or lower to folks
in the real world I know internet folks rider faster at lower pressures....

Roger Merriman

  #129  
Old August 16th 18, 11:55 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 385
Default Flat repair

wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:09:35 PM UTC-7, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2018 12:39 PM, wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18 wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch kit, two CO2
cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology used on every
other rubber tired vehicle in the world is not suited to bicycles but
if you're going to argue, don't use inadequate responses like "lock
you in to their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test conditions."
when this isn't the case at all. It is far easier to test bicycle
tire performance than those of a motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles" are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out shopping trolleys.
.

Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the weight of a
tube. What's more, because the sealant is so reliable you can use
lighter racing-style tires rather than armored tires such as the
Gatorskins or the others of similar construction. The flat tests I
presented earlier was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire
that has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.


People like tubeless for some applications where they make
sense. Other people gave up on them in other applications. I
don't feel strongly either way but they are certainly no
panacea.

Regarding weight, at least for road sizes, you're using a
heavier rim liner and a heavier valve assembly plus 55~60
grams of latex to omit a 60~65 gram tube. There may be a
weight savings but it can't be significant.

People like what they like because they like it. That's
fine, and argument enough. I don't see a compelling reason
to change, certainly not from 300g tubulars. YMMV, and in
your particular case it does.

p.s. I drove a wire-wheeled car, the last 8 years with the
latest hi-zoot Pirellis and matching tubes. Worked fine. Now
that I'm a grownup, I like pressed steel wheels with
tubeless, which are lighter.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971


Well, I can't argue that people want to ride what they want to ride. I
just find it curious that they complain about flats and then won't change
over to a tubeless that doesn't get flats.


Tubeless most certainly does get flats even in its natural home MTB, ie low
pressures, big volume, Tubeless doesn’t stop punctures it just reduces
them. Hence worms and so on.

Roger Merriman

  #130  
Old August 17th 18, 12:02 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Roger Merriman[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 385
Default Flat repair

wrote:
On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 1:25:54 PM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Thu, 16 Aug 2018 02:40:52 -0700 (PDT), wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 10:02:24 AM UTC+2, John B. Slocomb wrote:
On Wed, 15 Aug 2018 23:18:27 -0700 (PDT),
wrote:

On Thursday, August 16, 2018 at 2:16:32 AM UTC+2, AMuzi wrote:
On 8/15/2018 6:02 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/15/2018 1:39 PM,
wrote:
On Wednesday, August 15, 2018 at 12:26:14 AM UTC-7, news18
wrote:
On 14/08/18 08:48,
wrote:
Obviously you like carrying around two tubes, a patch
kit, two CO2 cartridges and a filler and a mini-pump
because it seems romantic to you.

Speaking of weight, just how heavier are these tubeless
systems compared
to the old tyre and tube system.

You are perfectly free to feel that the same technology
used on every other rubber tired vehicle in the world is
not suited to bicycles but if you're going to argue,
don't use inadequate responses like "lock you in to
their products"
or "testing procedures are only for very narrow test
conditions." when this isn't the case at all. It is far
easier to test bicycle tire performance than those of a
motorcycles.
+++
How many of these "every other rubber tyred vehcicles"
are not driven by
an ICE or similar power plant. P.S. you can leave out
shopping trolleys.
.

Why are you arguing this? Tubeless tires are missing the
weight of a tube. What's more, because the sealant is so
reliable you can use lighter racing-style tires rather
than armored tires such as the Gatorskins or the others of
similar construction. The flat tests I presented earlier
was a guy riding Continental 4000's - a racing tire that
has minimal rolling resistance in the tests.

I don't understand what you want us to do, Tom. I've got six
personal bikes plus a tandem. Oh, plus another 1930s antique
stored in the garage attic. They have five different wheel
sizes. Surely you don't want me to run out and convert them
all to tubeless?

I have no current plans to buy another bike. If I start down
that path, I might look at the issue. But I'm not seeing a
compelling advantage.

Right now, my main issue is learning how to repair them if
there is a problem, because I do get recruited to help fix
bike problems. I'm not looking forward to dealing with the
goop.


If it were possible to make a proper tubeless bcycle tire
with out goop, we'd all ride them.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org/
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Right. Goop is the reason I not even consider tubeless. Up to the
last tire test in TOUR magazine the best tubeless tires had a higher
RR compared to the best clincher tires. Now they are on par. They are
a bit heavier and harder to mount. That would be all manageable for
me but dealing with the goop not.

Lou

But from reading posts here it seemed like the anti-flat goop was main
argument for using tubeless.

Without goop I think the chance of a pinchflat is much lower so you can
ride with lower pressures for traction reasons or comfort. That is an
advantage riding off road on a cross bike or MTB. Pinchflats on a
roadbike is a no issue for me. My flats on the roadbike are almost
exlusively caused by small glass pieces or chips of rocks. For that you
need the goop to make the tubeless tire self sealant.

Lou


Why the furor about tubeless and no flats. After all they have been
making goop to inject into tire tubes and making them self sealing for
about 30 years now. Strange that no one seems to be using that
although it is considerably cheaper - about 2.00 a wheel.


Why you ask me? Carl Fogel (how is he BTW) used that green stuff and I
didn't know anyone who patched more flats than him. I don't think that
green goop works for pinch flats. Tubeless does by default; no tube to
pinch. For road bikes pinch flats aren't a problem at least not for me.
Off road with a crossbike with 32-35 mm wide tires it is because you want
to run them at low pressure for traction. If I gonna try tubeless it will
be on my crossbike but without the goop.

Lou


Inner tubes with sealant, seem to be a bit marmite, some folks love them,
other find they simply don’t work well, clearly they can pinch flat,
equally they don’t seal all penetrating ones either.

Either way doesn’t seem to work as well as tubeless with the sealant.

Roger Merriman

 




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