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Loop detector detector?



 
 
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  #51  
Old August 20th 14, 01:09 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Loop detector detector?

On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 1:47:58 PM UTC-4, Lou Holtman wrote:
Op dinsdag 19 augustus 2014 16:51:39 UTC+2 schreef Frank Krygowski:

On 8/19/2014 7:00 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:












Perhaps a return to the old timer regulated lights?








My preference is for single lane roundabouts whenever possible.




Supposedly, much easier traffic flow, less vehicle fuel waste, less




energy cost than powering traffic lights, fewer crashes, far fewer




injuries, etc.








Naturally, they can't be done everywhere, and they're costly to install.




I don't know how long it might take to recoup the investment.








--




- Frank Krygowski




A lot of simple crossings are turned in to single lane roundabouts here. They pop up here like the plague. I can assure you that they aren't the safest invention for cyclists.



Lou


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  #52  
Old August 20th 14, 01:34 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
JBeattie
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Default Loop detector detector?

On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 9:26:49 AM UTC-7, Jeff Liebermann wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 10:51:39 -0400, Frank Krygowski

wrote:



On 8/19/2014 7:00 AM, John B. Slocomb wrote:






Perhaps a return to the old timer regulated lights?




My preference is for single lane roundabouts whenever possible.


Supposedly, much easier traffic flow, less vehicle fuel waste, less


energy cost than powering traffic lights, fewer crashes, far fewer


injuries, etc.




Naturally, they can't be done everywhere, and they're costly to install.


I don't know how long it might take to recoup the investment.




$1.6 million for a new roundabout at the entry to the Santa Cruz

wharf:

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/santacruz/ci_26019783/santa-cruz-city-council-consider-second-beach-roundabout

http://localwiki.net/santacruz/Roundabout

The official justification is that it promotes tourism or something

like that.


snip

They need to promote tourism? Even in the '60s, HWY 17 was a parking lot all the way to Summit Road on a sunny day. I don't think the population has decreased much since then. Are they stacking tourists like cord wood?

Thanks for the picture links. They bring back fond memories. I'd move back to Los Gatos if I had a zillion dollars and a better hair cut.

-- Jay Beattie.
  #53  
Old August 20th 14, 02:25 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Radey Shouman
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Default Loop detector detector?

jbeattie writes:

On Sunday, August 17, 2014 7:47:23 PM UTC-7, Frank Krygowski wrote:
On 8/17/2014 8:12 PM, John B. Slocomb wrote:



I assume that these lights are in your local village. Is it not


possible the get the local highway department to paint a location


marker on the pavement to indicate where a bicycle would have to be to


trigger the light?




There are a couple sets of lights (the ones near the school) that are in

my village. There are others that are in a neighboring township. And

there are probably many more in our metro area.



In my village, I've volunteered to do the painting myself. I can cut

the stencil. I've discussed this with the village council president

before, and will discuss it again.



But in general, someone needs to know where the sweet spot is, before

that spot can be marked. In some cases, I do know. In other cases, I

think nobody knows. Hence the desirability of a detector.



Incidentally, I'm considering whether it would be a good project for our

bike club to just bypass the red tape and do the marking ourselves.

That strategy has advantages and disadvantages, of course.


There are several intersections around here where the powers-that-be
actually applied graphics indicating where bicyclists should be
located to trigger the loop. The loops still don't work. It is
against the law to blow the light. I'm thinking of proposing a bill
allowing bicyclists to proceed safely through the intersection, but I
have to work on some language. If you know of a statute or proposed
language, let me know.


Those markings have been required in Massachusetts for several years
now, and are added whenever an intersection is repaired or repaved. By
now we have quite a few. There is also a curbside lollipop that
initially said "Bicycles wait on stylized graphic for green", however
that seemed to imply that one wasn't to *go* for green, and they now say
"To request green, bicycles wait on stylized graphic".

As far as I can tell this does no good whatsoever. I am not sure that I
ever successfully trigger anything with my bicycle, and I can tell that
there are some intersections where I plainly don't. Since the marked
intersections are all newly paved it is hard to tell whether the
markings have any fixed relation to the sensor wires, but the fact that
they are almost always perfectly centered in the lane makes me
suspicious.

In fact, most of the new markings seem to be on intersections that I
don't believe actually use sensors. At first this might seem wasteful,
but, on reflection, one sees that those markings *always* reward the
obedient cyclist with a green, in due time. A punctiliously waiting
cyclist might report that *almost all* of the markings actually worked,
instead of none of them.

Assuming the highway crews in Frank's neighborhood are not much more
diligent than the ones around here I would suggest he personally mark
the spots that work. If the powers complain he can always say that
his admittedly amateurish markings were put there as an aid to the
real highway guys, so that they can paint over them with the good stuff.

--
  #54  
Old August 20th 14, 03:40 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Jeff Liebermann
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Posts: 4,018
Default Loop detector detector?

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 17:34:53 -0700 (PDT), jbeattie
wrote:

They need to promote tourism?


Well, something like that. I wasn't paying much attention when it
came out. It may have been in reference to reducing traffic
congestion so the tourists have a more pleasant visit.

Even in the '60s, HWY 17 was a parking lot all the way to Summit
Road on a sunny day.


It still is on some days. However, since then, the "fishook"
interchange was reworked, Ocean Street has been straightend, the
bridge to the Boardwalk widened, and parking improved at the
Boardwalk. There's still plenty of congestion, but nothing like the
70's when traffic was often backed up all the way to the summit.
Mostly, it's now Hwy 1 south to Aptos that's a parking lot during rush
hour.

I don't think the population has decreased much since then.
Are they stacking tourists like cord wood?


Nope, but the city is cashing in:
http://www.santacruzca.org/partners/statistics.php
I couldn't find any useful statistics on the number of visitors.
Offhand, I would guess that it's somewhat less than in the 1970's
mostly due to the cost of gasoline.

Thanks for the picture links. They bring back fond memories. I'd
move back to Los Gatos if I had a zillion dollars and a better
hair cut.


Y'er welcome. The better parts of Silly Clone Valley show rising
property values due to the large number of Google and dot.com
millionaires. Got $1.5 million for a house in Los Gatos?
http://www.zillow.com/los-gatos-ca/home-values/
I'm sure the realtor will throw in a haircut for that price.


--
Jeff Liebermann
150 Felker St #D
http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
  #55  
Old August 20th 14, 10:26 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Graham
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Posts: 206
Default Loop detector detector?


"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/19/2014 11:00 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:51:39 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:


[snip]

Dual lane roundabouts seem to be more dangerous for cyclists, from what
I've read. Again, the hazard is the right hook. I've not yet had the
chance to bicycle through one of those. I believe I'd be at the center
of the outer lane, or perhaps a bit toward its left side.

--
- Frank Krygowski


In the UK we have a lot of roundabouts from minis, multiple minis, single and multiple lane. I will have to negotiate quite a few of all flavours on most rides I do. It is a skill you learn just like any other and if you are a relatively quick rider then you treat them just as you would in a car. On multiple lane I will ride lane centre in the appropriate lane for my exit signalling accordingly. That is by far the safest as it avoids being overtaken on the inside and then cut up by a driver exiting earlier than me. If, however, you are a slower rider then I guess the bigger roundabouts can be a bit intimidating as you have to rely on the consideration of drivers to make due allowance for you. Your outer lane centre approach would help being seen but would not prevent the inconsiderate driver from cutting you up! However as roundabouts are not a novelty in the UK drivers are used to navigating them safely at relatively low speeds and generally follow the rules: https://www.gov.uk/using-the-road-15...uts-184-to-190

That said there are, as in most places I guess, the odd idiot to contend with.

Graham.

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  #56  
Old August 20th 14, 12:47 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
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Default Loop detector detector?


make your Mark

http://goo.gl/fSqsuD

roundabouts save $$$

a gauge of local driving aggressiveness...cycling in a roundabut would seam foolish....designs should allow cycle pathing

Santa Cruss is overpopulated....not only are roundabouts saving $$$ but extending space from street walking. Crowded so walking beats cycling. Antique, whores and buggy widened for Model T.

With all the Valley money...quality of really attractive pussy is extreme.

a place of odd juxtapositions.

  #57  
Old August 20th 14, 03:48 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Default Loop detector detector?

On 8/20/2014 5:26 AM, Graham wrote:

"Frank Krygowski" wrote in message ...
On 8/19/2014 11:00 AM, Sir Ridesalot wrote:
On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 10:51:39 AM UTC-4, Frank Krygowski wrote:


[snip]

Dual lane roundabouts seem to be more dangerous for cyclists, from what
I've read. Again, the hazard is the right hook. I've not yet had the
chance to bicycle through one of those. I believe I'd be at the center
of the outer lane, or perhaps a bit toward its left side.

--
- Frank Krygowski


In the UK we have a lot of roundabouts from minis, multiple minis, single and multiple lane. I will have to negotiate quite a few of all flavours on most rides I do. It is a skill you learn just like any other and if you are a relatively quick rider then you treat them just as you would in a car. On multiple lane I will ride lane centre in the appropriate lane for my exit signalling accordingly. That is by far the safest as it avoids being overtaken on the inside and then cut up by a driver exiting earlier than me. If, however, you are a slower rider then I guess the bigger roundabouts can be a bit intimidating as you have to rely on the consideration of drivers to make due allowance for you. Your outer lane centre approach would help being seen but would not prevent the inconsiderate driver from cutting you up! However as roundabouts are not a novelty in the UK drivers are used to navigating them safely at relatively low speeds and generally follow the rules: https://www.gov.uk/u

sing-the-road-159-to-203/roundabouts-184-to-190

That said there are, as in most places I guess, the odd idiot to contend with.


We've got a new one just days away from completion within about a mile
of my house. It's on the route I normally use to get to the city
center, so I'll soon have lots of experience with it.

Here in the U.S., the current design standards seem to expect slow
cyclists to use the sidewalks that circle the outside, away from motor
vehicle traffic. I'll certainly be using the roadway, taking the lane
of course.

I've asked that they install "Bikes may use full lane" signs. (Really,
those signs should say "Bikes should use full lane" or something even
stronger, but they have to go by the Manual of Uniform Traffic Control
Devices, I guess.)

Yes, I expect the occasional idiot. That's part of life.

Last night, riding home in the dark after a club ride, I encountered one
such idiot - a "ninja cyclist," with no lights, no reflectors. My
headlight caught just a bit of chrome on his bike, thank goodness.

--
- Frank Krygowski
  #58  
Old August 20th 14, 05:04 PM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Frank Krygowski[_4_]
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Default Loop detector detector?

On 8/20/2014 7:47 AM, wrote:

cycling in a roundabut would seam foolish....designs should allow cycle pathing


Modern U.S. designs for single lane roundabouts call for perimeter
sidewalks. Pedestrians walk separated from the roadway, of course, and
stop at each crossing street. Splitter islands in each road segment
help pedestrians, allowing them to watch only one direction of traffic
at a time and providing a mid-way refuge.

Timid bicyclists are advised to become pedestrians and use those
sidewalks. Of course, there's a time penalty. For example, a cyclist
turning left (i.e. doing 270 degrees of the roundabout) might be stopped
five times waiting for traffic gaps. A cyclist controlling the lane can
ride through in ten seconds or less.

Adding a cycle path further out around the perimeter (beyond the
sidewalk) imposes one of the usual "protected path" hazards, which
involve popping the protected-feeling cyclist out into traffic where
motorists don't expect cross traffic at all. It's foolish to surprise
motorists with unconventional designs. Of course, segregation fans
pretend that green paint, instructional signs, warning signs, flashing
lights or even extra bicycle traffic lights will make everything just
dandy, but that's unlikely.

And BTW, modern U.S. design standards specifically forbid perimeter bike
lanes within the roundabout itself. Those have been shown to greatly
increase crash rates.

Ride at lane center, where you're visible, and where motorists can't
pass you. And as always, keep alert for numbskulls.


--
- Frank Krygowski
  #59  
Old August 21st 14, 05:05 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Joy Beeson
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Posts: 1,638
Default Loop detector detector?

On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 08:00:26 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot
wrote:

Personaly as far as bicycle use is concerned I detest roundabouts
as the Devil's invention and consider them to be very hazardous to
most bicyclists.


The roundabouts on Old Thirty at Fox Farm and Zimmer are quite easy
and safe, though the Fox Farm one is a bit complex for the
straight-through westbound traveler: there's a yield sign where the
straight-through traffic crosses the left-turning traffic. It follows
the usual rule -- traffic already in the road and moving has priority
over traffic wishing to enter the road -- but it's past the point
where right-turning traffic turns off, giving the straight-through
traveler the impression that he is in the roundabout even though he
has not yet begun to circulate.

The first time through I had to pull off into a parking lot and study
the roundabout for a while before I entered, but after that it was
quite easy, and even though I'm slower than I used to be (I recently
timed myself at fifty-six minutes for 7.4 miles, well rested, warmed
up, no stops, and wearing cleats.), I can avoid backing up a string of
traffic without getting out of breath. (And I had weak lungs even
when in peak form.)

I don't see how two-lane roundabouts can work for *anybody*, but I've
never seen one. Roundabouts are quite new in this area -- the
roundabout in the parking lot of the Boathouse has been there forever,
but I didn't recognize what it was until after the Old Thirty
roundabouts were built.

--
joy beeson at comcast dot net
http://joybeeson.home.comcast.net/
The above message is a Usenet post.
I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.





  #60  
Old August 21st 14, 06:44 AM posted to rec.bicycles.tech
Sir Ridesalot
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Posts: 5,270
Default Loop detector detector?

On Thursday, August 21, 2014 12:05:46 AM UTC-4, Joy Beeson wrote:
On Tue, 19 Aug 2014 08:00:26 -0700 (PDT), Sir Ridesalot

wrote:



Personaly as far as bicycle use is concerned I detest roundabouts


as the Devil's invention and consider them to be very hazardous to


most bicyclists.




The roundabouts on Old Thirty at Fox Farm and Zimmer are quite easy

and safe, though the Fox Farm one is a bit complex for the

straight-through westbound traveler: there's a yield sign where the

straight-through traffic crosses the left-turning traffic. It follows

the usual rule -- traffic already in the road and moving has priority

over traffic wishing to enter the road -- but it's past the point

where right-turning traffic turns off, giving the straight-through

traveler the impression that he is in the roundabout even though he

has not yet begun to circulate.



The first time through I had to pull off into a parking lot and study

the roundabout for a while before I entered, but after that it was

quite easy, and even though I'm slower than I used to be (I recently

timed myself at fifty-six minutes for 7.4 miles, well rested, warmed

up, no stops, and wearing cleats.), I can avoid backing up a string of

traffic without getting out of breath. (And I had weak lungs even

when in peak form.)



I don't see how two-lane roundabouts can work for *anybody*, but I've

never seen one. Roundabouts are quite new in this area -- the

roundabout in the parking lot of the Boathouse has been there forever,

but I didn't recognize what it was until after the Old Thirty

roundabouts were built.



--

joy beeson at comcast dot net

http://joybeeson.home.comcast.net/

The above message is a Usenet post.

I don't recall having given anyone permission to use it on a Web site.


Two lane roundabout seem to be the standard foprm in the Kitchwnwe/Cmbridge area of Ontario, Canada. I hear they want to put 13 roundabouts on Franklin Blvd in Cambridge, Ontario. Thats from Pinebush Road to Dundas Street which isn't all that far a distance. This means any of those roundabouts will be narrow diameter ones and any landscaping in the middle mounds will add to problems of visibility and/or sight lines for any unfortunate enough to have to use tthem. Not to mention that Franklin Blvd in Cambridge, Ontario is a major 18-wheeler trucking route. Bicycles and 18 wheelers in a roundabout = a very poor mix.

Cheers
 




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