How Roads (and Trails) Fragment Habitat and Harm Wildlife

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0421102449.htm

Rattlesnakes Sound Warning on Biodiversity and Habitat Fragmentation

ScienceDaily (Apr. 23, 2010) * Like the canary in the coal mine, the
timber rattlesnake may be telling us something about the environment
we share.

Cornell University researchers -- using cutting-edge tools including
fine-scale molecular genetics and microsatellite markers -- tracked
the rattlesnakes to understand how wildlife habitats are affected by
even modest human encroachment.

"We used this species as a model to investigate general processes
underlying population-level responses to habitat fragmentation," said
the authors, led by Cornell post-doctoral researcher Rulon Clark, in
the paper "Roads, Interrupted Dispersal and Genetic Diversity in
Timber Rattlesnakes," currently available online and to be published
in the journal Conservation Biology.

Researchers discovered that fragmentation of natural habitats by roads
-- even smaller, low-traffic highways -- has had a significant effect
over the past 80 years on genetic structure of timber rattlesnakes in
four separate regions of upstate New York. Less genetic diversity
means populations become more susceptible to illness or environmental
changes that threaten their survival.

"Our study adds to a growing body of literature indicating that even
anthropogenic habitat modifications that does not destroy a large
amount of habitat can create significant barriers to gene flow," said
researchers.

While the rattlesnakes shorter lifespan and method of travel may help
make the impact of roadways relatively quick and dramatic, the new
findings reinforce earlier work on other terrestrial animals -- from
grizzly bears to frogs -- and provides a fresh warning about habitat
fragmentation that all plans for future human development must
consider.

Researchers used fine-scale molecular genetics as well as behavioral
and ecological data to look at timber rattlesnakes from 19 different
hibernacula -- shared wintering quarters -- in four regions in New
York: the Adirondacks, Sterling Forest, Bear Mountain and Chemung
County. In each case they used microsatellite markers to track how
populations dispersed from their winter dens, their subsequent
reproductive patterns, and how roads in these areas altered that gene
flow. The roads themselves -- all paved roadways built in the late
1920s to early 19030s for motorized traffic -- were examined for use
and relationship to natural barriers. Tissue samples were examined
from more than 500 individual snakes.

"Over all four regions and 19 hibernacula, none of the genetic
clusters … spanned either major or minor roads; hibernacula belonging
to the same genetic deme were always on the same side of the road,"
the paper states. "This fine-scaled analysis, repeated over four
geographic regions, underscores the significance of roads as barrier
to dispersal and natural population processes for timber rattlesnakes
and perhaps other species."

The research team also included Kelly Zamudio, Cornell University
ecology and evolutionary biology professor; William Brown, professor
of biology at Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, N.Y.; and Randy
Stechert, an environmental consultant for the New York State
Department of Environmental Conservation. Clark is currently an
assistant professor at San Diego State University.

The research was funded by the National Science Foundation and the New
York State Biodiversity Research Institute.

On Apr 23, 11:54*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0421102449.htm

Rattlesnakes Sound Warning on Biodiversity and Habitat Fragmentation

ScienceDaily (Apr. 23, 2010) * Like the canary in the coal mine, the
timber rattlesnake may be telling us something about the environment
we share.

Cornell University researchers -- using cutting-edge tools including
fine-scale molecular genetics and microsatellite markers -- tracked
the rattlesnakes to understand how wildlife habitats are affected by
even modest human encroachment.

"We used this species as a model to investigate general processes
underlying population-level responses to habitat fragmentation," said
the authors, led by Cornell post-doctoral researcher Rulon Clark, in
the paper "Roads, Interrupted Dispersal and Genetic Diversity in
Timber Rattlesnakes," currently available online and to be published
in the journal Conservation Biology.

Researchers discovered that fragmentation of natural habitats by roads
-- even smaller, low-traffic highways -- has had a significant effect
over the past 80 years on genetic structure of timber rattlesnakes in
four separate regions of upstate New York. Less genetic diversity
means populations become more susceptible to illness or environmental
changes that threaten their survival.

"Our study adds to a growing body of literature indicating that even
anthropogenic habitat modifications that does not destroy a large
amount of habitat can create significant barriers to gene flow," said
researchers.

While the rattlesnakes shorter lifespan and method of travel may help
make the impact of roadways relatively quick and dramatic, the new
findings reinforce earlier work on other terrestrial animals -- from
grizzly bears to frogs -- and provides a fresh warning about habitat
fragmentation that all plans for future human development must
consider.

Researchers used fine-scale molecular genetics as well as behavioral
and ecological data to look at timber rattlesnakes from 19 different
hibernacula -- shared wintering quarters -- in four regions in New
York: the Adirondacks, Sterling Forest, Bear Mountain and Chemung
County. In each case they used microsatellite markers to track how
populations dispersed from their winter dens, their subsequent
reproductive patterns, and how roads in these areas altered that gene
flow. The roads themselves -- all paved roadways built in the late
1920s to early 19030s for motorized traffic -- were examined for use
and relationship to natural barriers. Tissue samples were examined
from more than 500 individual snakes.

"Over all four regions and 19 hibernacula, none of the genetic
clusters … spanned either major or minor roads; hibernacula belonging
to the same genetic deme were always on the same side of the road,"
the paper states. "This fine-scaled analysis, repeated over four
geographic regions, underscores the significance of roads as barrier
to dispersal and natural population processes for timber rattlesnakes
and perhaps other species."

The research team also included Kelly Zamudio, Cornell University
ecology and evolutionary biology professor; William Brown, professor
of biology at Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, N.Y.; and Randy
Stechert, an environmental consultant for the New York State
Department of Environmental Conservation. Clark is currently an
assistant professor at San Diego State University.

The research was funded by the National Science Foundation and the New
York State Biodiversity Research Institute.

Mike - this has NOTHING TO DO WITH TRAILS OF ANY SIZE. It has 100% to
do with roadways for motorized vehicles. What these people are doing
is science. What you are doing by misrepresenting their work is not.
To even suggest that a footpath compares with even a small lightly-
travelled rural roadway (their definition of modest human
encroachment) is disingenuous at best, deceptive at worst, and not
substantiated by anything appearing in this article.

BTW, these results are not surprising; timber rattlers in particular
are known for their timidity and relative inabaility to cope with
human development. Growing up there and spending much of my time in
the woods, I never saw one. In the more remote parts of central
Massachusetts, one of which is alluded to in this article, my sister
has participated in investigations on timber rattlers and is so
convinced that they are sensitive to the point of endangerment that
she refuses to tell anyone where she has seen them, other than central
Worcester County. All I know is that the place is miles away from any
road for motorized vehicles.

Bruce Jensen

On Apr 23, 12:58*pm, Bruce Jensen wrote:
On Apr 23, 11:54*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:





http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0421102449.htm

Rattlesnakes Sound Warning on Biodiversity and Habitat Fragmentation

ScienceDaily (Apr. 23, 2010) * Like the canary in the coal mine, the
timber rattlesnake may be telling us something about the environment
we share.

Cornell University researchers -- using cutting-edge tools including
fine-scale molecular genetics and microsatellite markers -- tracked
the rattlesnakes to understand how wildlife habitats are affected by
even modest human encroachment.

"We used this species as a model to investigate general processes
underlying population-level responses to habitat fragmentation," said
the authors, led by Cornell post-doctoral researcher Rulon Clark, in
the paper "Roads, Interrupted Dispersal and Genetic Diversity in
Timber Rattlesnakes," currently available online and to be published
in the journal Conservation Biology.

Researchers discovered that fragmentation of natural habitats by roads
-- even smaller, low-traffic highways -- has had a significant effect
over the past 80 years on genetic structure of timber rattlesnakes in
four separate regions of upstate New York. Less genetic diversity
means populations become more susceptible to illness or environmental
changes that threaten their survival.

"Our study adds to a growing body of literature indicating that even
anthropogenic habitat modifications that does not destroy a large
amount of habitat can create significant barriers to gene flow," said
researchers.

While the rattlesnakes shorter lifespan and method of travel may help
make the impact of roadways relatively quick and dramatic, the new
findings reinforce earlier work on other terrestrial animals -- from
grizzly bears to frogs -- and provides a fresh warning about habitat
fragmentation that all plans for future human development must
consider.

Researchers used fine-scale molecular genetics as well as behavioral
and ecological data to look at timber rattlesnakes from 19 different
hibernacula -- shared wintering quarters -- in four regions in New
York: the Adirondacks, Sterling Forest, Bear Mountain and Chemung
County. In each case they used microsatellite markers to track how
populations dispersed from their winter dens, their subsequent
reproductive patterns, and how roads in these areas altered that gene
flow. The roads themselves -- all paved roadways built in the late
1920s to early 19030s for motorized traffic -- were examined for use
and relationship to natural barriers. Tissue samples were examined
from more than 500 individual snakes.

"Over all four regions and 19 hibernacula, none of the genetic
clusters … spanned either major or minor roads; hibernacula belonging
to the same genetic deme were always on the same side of the road,"
the paper states. "This fine-scaled analysis, repeated over four
geographic regions, underscores the significance of roads as barrier
to dispersal and natural population processes for timber rattlesnakes
and perhaps other species."

The research team also included Kelly Zamudio, Cornell University
ecology and evolutionary biology professor; William Brown, professor
of biology at Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, N.Y.; and Randy
Stechert, an environmental consultant for the New York State
Department of Environmental Conservation. Clark is currently an
assistant professor at San Diego State University.

The research was funded by the National Science Foundation and the New
York State Biodiversity Research Institute.

Mike - this has NOTHING TO DO WITH TRAILS OF ANY SIZE.

BS. You know NOTHING about the subject, obviously, but are quick to
make groundless assertions anyway. The effect has to do with (1) the
presence of humans and (2) the degree of loss of ground cover, which
makes animals fear exposure. Obviously, trails can do both of those
things. They just didn't happen to study trails, because it would
complicate their work. Trails are very hard to quantify. Your
assertion is very irresponsible, but predictable, from selfish humans.

*It has 100% to
do with roadways for motorized vehicles. *What these people are doing
is science. *What you are doing by misrepresenting their work is not.
To even suggest that a footpath compares with even a small lightly-
travelled rural roadway (their definition of modest human
encroachment) is disingenuous at best, deceptive at worst, and not
substantiated by anything appearing in this article.

BTW, these results are not surprising; timber rattlers in particular
are known for their timidity and relative inabaility to cope with
human development. *Growing up there and spending much of my time in
the woods, I never saw one. *In the more remote parts of central
Massachusetts, one of which is alluded to in this article, my sister
has participated in investigations on timber rattlers and is so
convinced that they are sensitive to the point of endangerment that
she refuses to tell anyone where she has seen them, other than central
Worcester County. *All I know is that the place is miles away from any
road for motorized vehicles.

Bruce Jensen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

On Apr 24, 12:10*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:
On Apr 23, 12:58*pm, Bruce Jensen wrote:





On Apr 23, 11:54*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0421102449.htm

Rattlesnakes Sound Warning on Biodiversity and Habitat Fragmentation

ScienceDaily (Apr. 23, 2010) * Like the canary in the coal mine, the
timber rattlesnake may be telling us something about the environment
we share.

Cornell University researchers -- using cutting-edge tools including
fine-scale molecular genetics and microsatellite markers -- tracked
the rattlesnakes to understand how wildlife habitats are affected by
even modest human encroachment.

"We used this species as a model to investigate general processes
underlying population-level responses to habitat fragmentation," said
the authors, led by Cornell post-doctoral researcher Rulon Clark, in
the paper "Roads, Interrupted Dispersal and Genetic Diversity in
Timber Rattlesnakes," currently available online and to be published
in the journal Conservation Biology.

Researchers discovered that fragmentation of natural habitats by roads
-- even smaller, low-traffic highways -- has had a significant effect
over the past 80 years on genetic structure of timber rattlesnakes in
four separate regions of upstate New York. Less genetic diversity
means populations become more susceptible to illness or environmental
changes that threaten their survival.

"Our study adds to a growing body of literature indicating that even
anthropogenic habitat modifications that does not destroy a large
amount of habitat can create significant barriers to gene flow," said
researchers.

While the rattlesnakes shorter lifespan and method of travel may help
make the impact of roadways relatively quick and dramatic, the new
findings reinforce earlier work on other terrestrial animals -- from
grizzly bears to frogs -- and provides a fresh warning about habitat
fragmentation that all plans for future human development must
consider.

Researchers used fine-scale molecular genetics as well as behavioral
and ecological data to look at timber rattlesnakes from 19 different
hibernacula -- shared wintering quarters -- in four regions in New
York: the Adirondacks, Sterling Forest, Bear Mountain and Chemung
County. In each case they used microsatellite markers to track how
populations dispersed from their winter dens, their subsequent
reproductive patterns, and how roads in these areas altered that gene
flow. The roads themselves -- all paved roadways built in the late
1920s to early 19030s for motorized traffic -- were examined for use
and relationship to natural barriers. Tissue samples were examined
from more than 500 individual snakes.

"Over all four regions and 19 hibernacula, none of the genetic
clusters … spanned either major or minor roads; hibernacula belonging
to the same genetic deme were always on the same side of the road,"
the paper states. "This fine-scaled analysis, repeated over four
geographic regions, underscores the significance of roads as barrier
to dispersal and natural population processes for timber rattlesnakes
and perhaps other species."

The research team also included Kelly Zamudio, Cornell University
ecology and evolutionary biology professor; William Brown, professor
of biology at Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, N.Y.; and Randy
Stechert, an environmental consultant for the New York State
Department of Environmental Conservation. Clark is currently an
assistant professor at San Diego State University.

The research was funded by the National Science Foundation and the New
York State Biodiversity Research Institute.

Mike - this has NOTHING TO DO WITH TRAILS OF ANY SIZE.

BS. You know NOTHING about the subject, obviously, but are quick to
make groundless assertions anyway. The effect has to do with (1) the
presence of humans and (2) the degree of loss of ground cover, which
makes animals fear exposure. Obviously, trails can do both of those
things. They just didn't happen to study trails, because it would
complicate their work. Trails are very hard to quantify. Your
assertion is very irresponsible, but predictable, from selfish humans.

**It has 100% to



do with roadways for motorized vehicles. *What these people are doing
is science. *What you are doing by misrepresenting their work is not.
To even suggest that a footpath compares with even a small lightly-
travelled rural roadway (their definition of modest human
encroachment) is disingenuous at best, deceptive at worst, and not
substantiated by anything appearing in this article.

BTW, these results are not surprising; timber rattlers in particular
are known for their timidity and relative inabaility to cope with
human development. *Growing up there and spending much of my time in
the woods, I never saw one. *In the more remote parts of central
Massachusetts, one of which is alluded to in this article, my sister
has participated in investigations on timber rattlers and is so
convinced that they are sensitive to the point of endangerment that
she refuses to tell anyone where she has seen them, other than central
Worcester County. *All I know is that the place is miles away from any
road for motorized vehicles.

Bruce Jensen- Hide quoted text -

- Show quoted text -

If you'd learn to read and not filter everything through your inferior
mental sieve overloaded with preconceived biases, you'd see how
ridiculous your assertion is. A scientist you're not.

This article is excellent and instructive taken on its own merits.
Taken a few steps further by you, it becomes nothing more than a farce
of unsubstantiated suppositions. Learn the difference, if you want to
make a difference.

Bruce

On Apr 24, 1:06*pm, Bruce Jensen wrote:
On Apr 24, 12:10*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:



On Apr 23, 12:58*pm, Bruce Jensen wrote:

On Apr 23, 11:54*am, Mike Vandeman wrote:

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases...0421102449.htm

Rattlesnakes Sound Warning on Biodiversity and Habitat Fragmentation

ScienceDaily (Apr. 23, 2010) * Like the canary in the coal mine, the
timber rattlesnake may be telling us something about the environment
we share.

Cornell University researchers -- using cutting-edge tools including
fine-scale molecular genetics and microsatellite markers -- tracked
the rattlesnakes to understand how wildlife habitats are affected by
even modest human encroachment.

"We used this species as a model to investigate general processes
underlying population-level responses to habitat fragmentation," said
the authors, led by Cornell post-doctoral researcher Rulon Clark, in
the paper "Roads, Interrupted Dispersal and Genetic Diversity in
Timber Rattlesnakes," currently available online and to be published
in the journal Conservation Biology.

Researchers discovered that fragmentation of natural habitats by roads
-- even smaller, low-traffic highways -- has had a significant effect
over the past 80 years on genetic structure of timber rattlesnakes in
four separate regions of upstate New York. Less genetic diversity
means populations become more susceptible to illness or environmental
changes that threaten their survival.

"Our study adds to a growing body of literature indicating that even
anthropogenic habitat modifications that does not destroy a large
amount of habitat can create significant barriers to gene flow," said
researchers.

While the rattlesnakes shorter lifespan and method of travel may help
make the impact of roadways relatively quick and dramatic, the new
findings reinforce earlier work on other terrestrial animals -- from
grizzly bears to frogs -- and provides a fresh warning about habitat
fragmentation that all plans for future human development must
consider.

Researchers used fine-scale molecular genetics as well as behavioral
and ecological data to look at timber rattlesnakes from 19 different
hibernacula -- shared wintering quarters -- in four regions in New
York: the Adirondacks, Sterling Forest, Bear Mountain and Chemung
County. In each case they used microsatellite markers to track how
populations dispersed from their winter dens, their subsequent
reproductive patterns, and how roads in these areas altered that gene
flow. The roads themselves -- all paved roadways built in the late
1920s to early 19030s for motorized traffic -- were examined for use
and relationship to natural barriers. Tissue samples were examined
from more than 500 individual snakes.

"Over all four regions and 19 hibernacula, none of the genetic
clusters … spanned either major or minor roads; hibernacula belonging
to the same genetic deme were always on the same side of the road,"
the paper states. "This fine-scaled analysis, repeated over four
geographic regions, underscores the significance of roads as barrier
to dispersal and natural population processes for timber rattlesnakes
and perhaps other species."

The research team also included Kelly Zamudio, Cornell University
ecology and evolutionary biology professor; William Brown, professor
of biology at Skidmore College, Saratoga Springs, N.Y.; and Randy
Stechert, an environmental consultant for the New York State
Department of Environmental Conservation. Clark is currently an
assistant professor at San Diego State University.

The research was funded by the National Science Foundation and the New
York State Biodiversity Research Institute.

Mike - this has NOTHING TO DO WITH TRAILS OF ANY SIZE.

BS. You know NOTHING about the subject, obviously, but are quick to
make groundless assertions anyway. The effect has to do with (1) the
presence of humans and (2) the degree of loss of ground cover, which
makes animals fear exposure. Obviously, trails can do both of those
things. They just didn't happen to study trails, because it would
complicate their work. Trails are very hard to quantify. Your
assertion is very irresponsible, but predictable, from selfish humans.

**It has 100% to

do with roadways for motorized vehicles. *What these people are doing
is science. *What you are doing by misrepresenting their work is not.

"pmh" wrote in message
...
[...]

But Bruce, you're trying to cloud the issue with data & rational
discourse. Two things Mikey has never met in the wild. Innumerable
posters over the years have pointed out, sometimes a bit angrily and
sometimes in great and patient detail, the unending flaws in his
reasoning, comprehension and ability to interpret another's words. His
disdain for humanity warps anything & everything in his narrow,
hateful little world. Like the far-right religious fundamentalists who
want not answers to questions but confirmation of preconceived
notions, Mikey wants not a clear understanding of the world including
man's rightful place in it but rather confirmation of his disdain for
reality.
PMH

What data and rational discourse would that be?

You and Bruce are both a couple of idiots who could not find your way out of
a burning barn. In fact, the only poster to these newsgroups who makes any
sense to me at all is Mr. Vandeman. That is because he is on the side of the
angels and all the rest of you are in league with the Devil.

All the scumbags of these newsgroup know how to do is to pile on. They have
all the courage of the cowardly knaves that they are. Their advocacy of
mountain biking on hiking trails borders on being criminal. A good
horsewhipping for them is what I recommend. If they will have the decency to
get themselves killed mountain biking, I will honor them by ****ing on their
****ing graves - and it will be good riddance to bad rubbish! It would have
been better if they had never been born, but once born, the sooner they die,
the better.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

On Apr 24, 5:02*pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
"pmh" wrote in message

...
[...]

But Bruce, you're trying to cloud the issue with data & rational

discourse. Two things Mikey has never met in the wild. Innumerable
posters over the years have pointed out, sometimes a bit angrily and
sometimes in great and patient detail, the unending flaws in his
reasoning, comprehension and ability to interpret another's words. His
disdain for humanity warps anything & everything in his narrow,
hateful little world. Like the far-right religious fundamentalists who
want not answers to questions but confirmation of preconceived
notions, Mikey wants not a clear understanding of the world including
man's rightful place in it but rather confirmation of his disdain for
reality.
PMH

What data and rational discourse would that be?

You and Bruce are both a couple of idiots who could not find your way out of
a burning barn. In fact, the only poster to these newsgroups who makes any
sense to me at all is Mr. Vandeman. That is because he is on the side of the
angels and all the rest of you are in league with the Devil.

All the scumbags of these newsgroup know how to do is to pile on. They have
all the courage of the cowardly knaves that they are. Their advocacy of
mountain biking on hiking trails borders on being criminal. A good
horsewhipping for them is what I recommend. If they will have the decency to
get themselves killed mountain biking, I will honor them by ****ing on their
****ing graves - and it will be good riddance to bad rubbish! It would have
been better if they had never been born, but once born, the sooner they die,
the better.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Ed, if you read them, these particular posts are not about mountain
biking, but about Mike confusing paved highways with trails in the
wilderness, whatever he perceives them to be. Mike wants to kick you
out of the wilderness you love for imagined transgressions against
wildlife. This is obvious to anyone who reads his posts. Based on
what I've read from you *on this subject*, your opinion is almost
diametrically polarized with his. Can you not see this? Why do you
defend him?

Bruce

On 4/24/2010 8:03 PM, Bruce Jensen wrote:
On Apr 24, 5:02 pm, "Edward wrote:
wrote in message

...
[...]

But Bruce, you're trying to cloud the issue with data& rational

discourse. Two things Mikey has never met in the wild. Innumerable
posters over the years have pointed out, sometimes a bit angrily and
sometimes in great and patient detail, the unending flaws in his
reasoning, comprehension and ability to interpret another's words. His
disdain for humanity warps anything& everything in his narrow,
hateful little world. Like the far-right religious fundamentalists who
want not answers to questions but confirmation of preconceived
notions, Mikey wants not a clear understanding of the world including
man's rightful place in it but rather confirmation of his disdain for
reality.
PMH

What data and rational discourse would that be?

You and Bruce are both a couple of idiots who could not find your way out of
a burning barn. In fact, the only poster to these newsgroups who makes any
sense to me at all is Mr. Vandeman. That is because he is on the side of the
angels and all the rest of you are in league with the Devil.

All the scumbags of these newsgroup know how to do is to pile on. They have
all the courage of the cowardly knaves that they are. Their advocacy of
mountain biking on hiking trails borders on being criminal. A good
horsewhipping for them is what I recommend. If they will have the decency to
get themselves killed mountain biking, I will honor them by ****ing on their
****ing graves - and it will be good riddance to bad rubbish! It would have
been better if they had never been born, but once born, the sooner they die,
the better.

Regards,


What, no atomic bombs involved?

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

Ed, if you read them, these particular posts are not about mountain
biking, but about Mike confusing paved highways with trails in the
wilderness, whatever he perceives them to be. Mike wants to kick you
out of the wilderness you love for imagined transgressions against
wildlife. This is obvious to anyone who reads his posts. Based on
what I've read from you *on this subject*, your opinion is almost
diametrically polarized with his. Can you not see this? Why do you
defend him?


Mr. Ed the Grate is just naturally cranky.

--
Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007

"Bruce Jensen" wrote in message
...
On Apr 24, 5:02 pm, "Edward Dolan" wrote:
"pmh" wrote in message

...
[...]

But Bruce, you're trying to cloud the issue with data & rational

discourse. Two things Mikey has never met in the wild. Innumerable
posters over the years have pointed out, sometimes a bit angrily and
sometimes in great and patient detail, the unending flaws in his
reasoning, comprehension and ability to interpret another's words. His
disdain for humanity warps anything & everything in his narrow,
hateful little world. Like the far-right religious fundamentalists who
want not answers to questions but confirmation of preconceived
notions, Mikey wants not a clear understanding of the world including
man's rightful place in it but rather confirmation of his disdain for
reality.
PMH

What data and rational discourse would that be?

You and Bruce are both a couple of idiots who could not find your way out
of
a burning barn. In fact, the only poster to these newsgroups who makes any
sense to me at all is Mr. Vandeman. That is because he is on the side of
the
angels and all the rest of you are in league with the Devil.

All the scumbags of these newsgroup know how to do is to pile on. They
have
all the courage of the cowardly knaves that they are. Their advocacy of
mountain biking on hiking trails borders on being criminal. A good
horsewhipping for them is what I recommend. If they will have the decency
to
get themselves killed mountain biking, I will honor them by ****ing on
their
****ing graves - and it will be good riddance to bad rubbish! It would
have
been better if they had never been born, but once born, the sooner they
die,
the better.

Ed, if you read them, these particular posts are not about mountain
biking, but about Mike confusing paved highways with trails in the
wilderness, whatever he perceives them to be. Mike wants to kick you
out of the wilderness you love for imagined transgressions against
wildlife. This is obvious to anyone who reads his posts. Based on
what I've read from you *on this subject*, your opinion is almost
diametrically polarized with his. Can you not see this? Why do you
defend him?

Bruce, you do not seem like a bad soul to me, but why do you dispute
with Mr. Vandeman on nonessential issues? I assure you that Mr. Vandeman
does not want to kick anyone out of the wilderness. He just does not
want mountain bikers screwing up hiking trails for us Thoreau types.

Let me ask you something - have you never hiked a trail in a wilderness?
If you have, I know you would not want a group of fun and games mountain
bikers disrupting your reverie and contemplation any more than Mr.
Vandeman and I do.

I have been in correspondence with Mr. Vandeman for many years now and I
know him for the pure soul that he is. Yes, he is an extremist, but we
need those types too. He has helped me see things more clearly about
natural and wilderness areas than I could ever have seen on my own. He
is an expert on these matters and you and I aren't. All I know for sure
is that I do not want mountain bikers on my scared hiking trails. I
don't think you do either.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota

"Tom Sherman °_°" wrote in message
...
On 4/24/2010 8:03 PM, Bruce Jensen wrote:
On Apr 24, 5:02 pm, "Edward wrote:
wrote in message

...
[...]

But Bruce, you're trying to cloud the issue with data& rational

discourse. Two things Mikey has never met in the wild. Innumerable
posters over the years have pointed out, sometimes a bit angrily and
sometimes in great and patient detail, the unending flaws in his
reasoning, comprehension and ability to interpret another's words. His
disdain for humanity warps anything& everything in his narrow,
hateful little world. Like the far-right religious fundamentalists who
want not answers to questions but confirmation of preconceived
notions, Mikey wants not a clear understanding of the world including
man's rightful place in it but rather confirmation of his disdain for
reality.
PMH

What data and rational discourse would that be?

You and Bruce are both a couple of idiots who could not find your way
out of
a burning barn. In fact, the only poster to these newsgroups who makes
any
sense to me at all is Mr. Vandeman. That is because he is on the side of
the
angels and all the rest of you are in league with the Devil.

All the scumbags of these newsgroup know how to do is to pile on. They
have
all the courage of the cowardly knaves that they are. Their advocacy of
mountain biking on hiking trails borders on being criminal. A good
horsewhipping for them is what I recommend. If they will have the
decency to
get themselves killed mountain biking, I will honor them by ****ing on
their
****ing graves - and it will be good riddance to bad rubbish! It would
have
been better if they had never been born, but once born, the sooner they
die,
the better.

What, no atomic bombs involved?

Ed, if you read them, these particular posts are not about mountain
biking, but about Mike confusing paved highways with trails in the
wilderness, whatever he perceives them to be. Mike wants to kick you
out of the wilderness you love for imagined transgressions against
wildlife. This is obvious to anyone who reads his posts. Based on
what I've read from you *on this subject*, your opinion is almost
diametrically polarized with his. Can you not see this? Why do you
defend him?


Mr. Ed the Grate is just naturally cranky.

Why be a kibitzer all of your life. You used to post content on the other
cycling newsgroups. Why not do so on these groups. Surely you have a
viewpoint on the matters under discussion here. Even if you have never biked
on a trail in a wilderness or hiked on such a trail, you can weigh in. After
all, we are all idiots here except for Mr. Vandeman.

Regards,

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
aka
Saint Edward the Great - Order of the Perpetual Sorrows - Minnesota