Newbie-ish q about brake levers on drop handlebars

On my to-be-replaced 'tourer' with drops, the brake levers have additional
levers which means you can operate them with your hands on the top bars. I
wouldnt want to give this up on a new bike (which might be one I buy second
hand) if I go for one with drops.

There was some derogatory comment on these secondary levers (whose name I
forget) a few days ago, but I can't see what the problem is with them.
However, more to the point, I havent seen any new bikes that come with
these. Why not, arent they useful? And can someone remind me of the name for
these "secondary levers" and the makers of whatever is the current
equivalent? Also, how easy would it be to fit these to a s/h bike, is it a
LBS job?

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

Tumbleweed wrote:

On my to-be-replaced 'tourer' with drops, the brake levers have additional
levers which means you can operate them with your hands on the top bars. I
wouldnt want to give this up on a new bike (which might be one I buy second
hand) if I go for one with drops.

You do want to give them up.

There was some derogatory comment on these secondary levers (whose name I
forget)

Suicide levers.

a few days ago, but I can't see what the problem is with them.
However, more to the point, I havent seen any new bikes that come with
these. Why not, arent they useful? And can someone remind me of the name for
these "secondary levers" and the makers of whatever is the current
equivalent? Also, how easy would it be to fit these to a s/h bike, is it a
LBS job?

They can't exert the same amount of force as the proper levers. By the
time you've realized that you can't stop quickly enough with them, it's
too late to switch to the real levers.

Modern dual-pivot calipers and all the weird and wonderful mountain bike
brakes are so good that they are truly unnecessary. On my Roberts
(Campag Veloce levers, Shimano calipers), I can easily stop as quickly
as the bike is capable of doing with my hands on the brake hoods
reaching down to push the levers in.

Stopping hard with your hands on the top of the 'bars is hard - because
your hands are closer together, you can't control the steering as
accurately. On the rare occasion I'm on the 'bar tops (usually going
slowly uphill) and have to stop quickly, I move to the brake hoods and
then slam on the anchors.

I don't believe any suicide lever setup could stop quicker than me doing
that.

Avoid them.

--
Mark.

"Tumbleweed" wrote in message
...
On my to-be-replaced 'tourer' with drops, the brake levers have
additional
levers which means you can operate them with your hands on the top bars.
I
wouldnt want to give this up on a new bike (which might be one I buy
second
hand) if I go for one with drops.

There was some derogatory comment on these secondary levers (whose name I
forget) a few days ago, but I can't see what the problem is with them.


"Suicide levers" used to be the term of choice owning to their
perceived and all too real sponginess. The problem with them is,
is that they can wean you off of the habit of instinctively reaching
for the "proper" i.e. tecnically most effecient lever in an emergency.
Basically what may seem like a convenience most of the time, could
mean not stopping in time on the one occasion you most need to.

Curious

--
Tumbleweed

email replies not necessary but to contact use;
tumbleweednews at hotmail dot com

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:54:56 +0100, Mark Tranchant
wrote:

Tumbleweed wrote:

On my to-be-replaced 'tourer' with drops, the brake levers have
additional
levers which means you can operate them with your hands on the top
bars. I
wouldnt want to give this up on a new bike (which might be one I buy
second
hand) if I go for one with drops.

You do want to give them up.

Absolutely. But, if you do want additional levers on the tops then get
some inline cyclo-cross levers fitted (Tektro do some.) These are separate
to the drop levers and push outer rather than pull cable. I have some on
my tourer and they are effective and useful.

Colin

On Wed, 30 Jun 2004 09:05:03 GMT, Simon Brooke
wrote:


The additional levers which sit in the middle of the cable run should be
more powerful and more reliable, but I haven't used them. Examples
he
URL:http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item540.htm

Hmm, dynamo holder??

URL:http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item63.htm

The ones I have are similar to these:

URL:http://www.sjscycles.com/store/vIndex.htm?item7187.htm

Colin

Tumbleweed wrote:

There was some derogatory comment on these secondary levers (whose name I
forget) a few days ago, but I can't see what the problem is with them.

Executive Summary: they're ****e.

No, really. Compare and contrast the braking effectiveness of the
secondary levers, which act on the primary levers in a position to give
the worst possible mechanical advantage, to the main levers going
downhill in the wet.

However, more to the point, I havent seen any new bikes that come with
these. Why not, arent they useful?

They are, as I said above, ****e.

If you ride on the brake hoods (or not too far behind) you'll have at
least as much braking power as with extensions. All the extensions do
is give you an option of using something that doesn't work very well.

these "secondary levers" and the makers of whatever is the current
equivalent?

There isn't a current equivalent, because the latest thing that does the
same actually works properly.
Can't remember the name offhand, but they work in an entirely different
manner than the original versions.

FWIW I thought I'd miss them on my old bike until I took them off.
After I did that my stopping distances got a whole lot sharper...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Tumbleweed wrote:
On my to-be-replaced 'tourer' with drops, the brake levers have
additional levers which means you can operate them with your hands on
the top bars. I wouldnt want to give this up on a new bike (which
might be one I buy second hand) if I go for one with drops.

As I mentioned in a recent reply, I was once in exactly the same position
as you: strongly thought I couldn't live without these things. I was
wrong. Modern brakes with modern drop-bar levers are so effecient and
comfortable (ie. "powerful") that you can entirely get by hapilly without
extension levers. The standard brake levers can be used well from the
hoods (from above) as well as from the lower drop position.

You do not have to be within a couple of inches reach of the brake levers
the whole time. Much of the time, even in urban traffic, you have at
least two or three seconds clear stopping time, if you know what I mean.
That's more than ample to switch hand positions. In fact, just moving
right hand to front brake is often good enough.

Just make sure the basic brakes are good and you'll be fine. Avoid bikes
that don't stop well as they are. Why not take advice from someone who's
"been there done that"?

There was some derogatory comment on these secondary levers (whose
name I forget) a few days ago, but I can't see what the problem is
with them.

They don't work nearly as well as good proper levers, plus it's impossible
to fit the old type of extension levers to most modern brakes. There is a
(better) modern equivalent but that's still more gubbins to get in the way
and adds complication and expense.

However, more to the point, I havent seen any new bikes
that come with these. Why not, arent they useful?

Becuase they are not needed.

And can someone
remind me of the name for these "secondary levers"

Extension levers AKA suicide levers.

~PB

Peter Clinch wrote:

There isn't a current equivalent, because the latest thing that does
the same actually works properly.
Can't remember the name offhand, but they work in an entirely
different manner than the original versions.

Yes, I shouldn't have used the phrase "modern equivalent" in my previous
reply. Modern alternative, more like.

~PB

Mark Tranchant wrote:

They can't exert the same amount of force as the proper levers. By the
time you've realized that you can't stop quickly enough with them, it's
too late to switch to the real levers.

For further clarification, the main reason that they give limited
braking force is an ergonomic one; unlike normal brake levers (on flats
or drops) where the lever is pulled in towards the bars the pressure on
the lever at the crunch point is not simply a matter of clenching your
hand as if into a natural balled fist, with fingers acting directly
against the palm of the hand (and using some muscles in the arms as well
as the hand). Instead you actually have to pull up with the top two
joints of your fingers against the bottom one to pull the lever
tangentially with respect to the handlebars, which is massively less
efficient (the effective length of the lever is also shorter, which
exacerbates the problem. In addition to that, this action compromises
your grip on the bars exactly when you want to be holding on tightly as
the deceleration (if you've managed to induce any) brings your body
weight forwards, while having your hands in the middle of the bars, as
has been noted, also limits your steering control.

So don't do it.

Cheers

Roger

Roger Hughes wrote:
For further clarification, the main reason that they give limited
braking force is an ergonomic one; unlike normal brake levers (on
flats or drops) where the lever is pulled in towards the bars the
pressure on the lever at the crunch point is not simply a matter of
clenching your hand as if into a natural balled fist, with fingers
acting directly against the palm of the hand (and using some muscles
in the arms as well as the hand). Instead you actually have to pull
up with the top two joints of your fingers against the bottom one to
pull the lever tangentially with respect to the handlebars, which is
massively less efficient (the effective length of the lever is also
shorter, which exacerbates the problem. In addition to that, this
action compromises your grip on the bars exactly when you want to be
holding on tightly as the deceleration (if you've managed to induce
any) brings your body weight forwards, while having your hands in the
middle of the bars, as has been noted, also limits your steering
control.

Even more of a problem is lever travel. Suicide levers have to be pulled
so far to pull enough cable that they will hit the bar (or get to that
level) unless the brake blocks are set extremely close the rims (if you're
lucky) -- ideally within 1mm. This requires the brakes and wheels to be
in absolutely tip top condition: something that tends to be difficult to
achieve with the sort of bikes that have these levers.

~PB