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REI Greatly Improves Novara Transfer Commute Bicycle. Now has Cro-Mo frame and Adjustable Height Quill Stem and Chain Guard and 700C Wheels----20% off Coupon now at REI.
"SMS" wrote in message
... On 29/03/10 11:10 AM, landotter wrote: Novara likely switched to steel because the tube diameters are fashionable among twenty-somethings who lie to each other about the nature of the triangle. Unlikely that that was the reason. Commute bicycles are not stored in a garage for the whole week and taken out on the weekend for a ride along country roads, following a ride on top of the owner's car on a $400 Thule rack. They are ridden every day and subject to abuse. You want something more rugged. REI didn't add $20 of cost to the Transfer just for the marketing advantage of Cro-Mo versus aluminum. Nor did they switch to a quill stem for no reason. They changed to a chrome-moly frame exactly for the "marketing advantage" in terms of product differentiation. An aluminum frame, built for strength and not stupid-lightness, is going to be far more durable than a steel frame... any steel frame. The past is littered with failed steel frames. The fact that the present day is littered with aluminum frames that have met their fate is because that's what frames are made from these days. The product guy at REI is simply piggy-backing onto Rivendel and seeing an opportunity to take a line that hasn't done as well as they'd like, when competing with mainstream lines, and instead go after a niche in which they have a better chance of success. --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA |
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#2
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REI Greatly Improves Novara Transfer Commute Bicycle. Now hasCro-Mo frame and Adjustable Height Quill Stem and Chain Guard and 700CWheels----20% off Coupon now at REI.
On Mar 31, 12:53*am, "Mike Jacoubowsky"
wrote: [trim] The product guy at REI is simply piggy-backing onto Rivendel and seeing an opportunity to take a line that hasn't done as well as they'd like, when competing with mainstream lines, and instead go after a niche in which they have a better chance of success. And another thing--the previous generation of Transfer was a far cooler bike. Bombproof alu frame and 26" wheels with a nice rigid threadless setup. Basically a rigid mtb with a gearhub and dynohub. Very different from the new version which is trying to go Schwinn Collegiate on us. Hopefully REI won't ruin their funkiest bike, the Safari--which is all about good design, geekiness be damned! |
#3
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REI Greatly Improves Novara Transfer Commute Bicycle. Now hasCro-Mo frame and Adjustable Height Quill Stem and Chain Guard and 700CWheels----20% off Coupon now at REI.
On 31/03/10 7:34 AM, landotter wrote:
On Mar 31, 12:53 am, "Mike wrote: [trim] The product guy at REI is simply piggy-backing onto Rivendel and seeing an opportunity to take a line that hasn't done as well as they'd like, when competing with mainstream lines, and instead go after a niche in which they have a better chance of success. And another thing--the previous generation of Transfer was a far cooler bike. They had too many complaints about it from owners, and were smart enough to figure out that for every person complaining about it there were probably 100 people not buying it for the same reasons as owners were complaining about it. Weak non-responsive aluminum frame, wheels more suited to a mountain bike than a commute bike, very limited adjustability of the stem in terms of height and reach, and no chain guard. The new version solves all these problems and is much more marketable as a commute bicycle. |
#4
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REI Greatly Improves Novara Transfer Commute Bicycle. Now hasCro-Mo frame and Adjustable Height Quill Stem and Chain Guard and 700CWheels----20% off Coupon now at REI.
On 30/03/10 10:53 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote:
They changed to a chrome-moly frame exactly for the "marketing advantage" in terms of product differentiation. An aluminum frame, built for strength and not stupid-lightness, is going to be far more durable than a steel frame... any steel frame. You've been listening to the marketing department at Trek for too long if you believe all that. It's no secret why manufacturers like aluminum frames--they are extremely low cost. Shaving $12-15 off the cost of a complete bicycle is something that can't be passed up since they know, statistically, that few of those bicycles will spend much time out of the garage. The higher-end steel, carbon-fiber, and titanium frames are marketed as expensive boutique items. Of course it wasn't so long ago that Cannondale marketed aluminum frames as an expensive boutique item (and we all know what happened to Cannondale!). |
#5
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REI Greatly Improves Novara Transfer Commute Bicycle. Now hasCro-Mo frame and Adjustable Height Quill Stem and Chain Guard and 700CWheels----20% off Coupon now at REI.
On Mar 31, 9:49*am, SMS wrote:
On 31/03/10 7:34 AM, landotter wrote: On Mar 31, 12:53 am, "Mike wrote: [trim] The product guy at REI is simply piggy-backing onto Rivendel and seeing an opportunity to take a line that hasn't done as well as they'd like, when competing with mainstream lines, and instead go after a niche in which they have a better chance of success. And another thing--the previous generation of Transfer was a far cooler bike. They had too many complaints about it from owners, and were smart enough to figure out that for every person complaining about it there were probably 100 people not buying it for the same reasons as owners were complaining about it. Wow, that's a whole lot of ubsubstantiated lying! Weak non-responsive aluminum frame, Weak frame? No evidence for that lie. Unresponsive? It's metal triangles with about ~72ish angles. Gimme a break. Your bizarre materials fundamentalism really is a sickness, isn't it? wheels more suited to a mountain bike than a commute bike, Strong wheels--what a turnoff! You're going from lying to just absurd reaching. very limited adjustability of the stem in terms of height and reach, That would be a lie. The 09 came with both a stack of spacers and an adjustable stem. and no chain guard. Another lie, the 09 version came with a chain guard. The new version solves all these problems and is much more marketable as a commute bicycle. You mean the new version overcomes the imaginary version which you dreamed up as a straw man? I like heritage styling as much as the next Swede--I just don't see a need to adapt American religious fundamentalism to bike aesthetics. The lying and hysteria is pretty weird. Sure you don't sell bikes late at night on the Trinity Network--along with gold bullion and seeds--ya know--Armageddon supplies. Hooboy. |
#6
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REI Greatly Improves Novara Transfer Commute Bicycle. Now hasCro-Mo frame and Adjustable Height Quill Stem and Chain Guard and 700CWheels----20% off Coupon now at REI.
On 3/31/2010 9:53 AM, SMS aka Steven M. Scharf wrote:
On 30/03/10 10:53 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: They changed to a chrome-moly frame exactly for the "marketing advantage" in terms of product differentiation. An aluminum frame, built for strength and not stupid-lightness, is going to be far more durable than a steel frame... any steel frame. You've been listening to the marketing department at Trek for too long if you believe all that. It's no secret why manufacturers like aluminum frames--they are extremely low cost. Shaving $12-15 off the cost of a complete bicycle is something that can't be passed up since they know, statistically, that few of those bicycles will spend much time out of the garage. The higher-end steel, carbon-fiber, and titanium frames are marketed as expensive boutique items. Of course it wasn't so long ago that Cannondale marketed aluminum frames as an expensive boutique item (and we all know what happened to Cannondale!). Yes, Cannondale made an ill-advised venture into motorized vehicles. What does that have to do with bicycle frame materials? -- Tom Sherman - 42.435731,-83.985007 |
#7
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REI Greatly Improves Novara Transfer Commute Bicycle. Now hasCro-Mo frame and Adjustable Height Quill Stem and Chain Guard and 700CWheels----20% off Coupon now at REI.
On 31/03/10 1:02 PM, landotter wrote:
snip There's no evidence that your claims of cost saving are true--just more made up **** from a velo-authoritarian*. If you listen to the audio of the presentation that Sheldon Brown gave to recumbent club, you'll understand the facts regarding cost savings, and how they were responsible. Geez, I didn't think there was _anyone_ that denied that the move to mass-produced aluminum frames was driven by anything other than the incredibly low cost of aluminum. Throw a "lifetime warranty" in (at least on non-mountain bikes) and you've convinced naive buyers that aluminum must be great or else how could the manufacturer offer a warranty like that. Cannondale is doing fine. They helped bring great aluminum frames to the masses. They still have no equal on the mass market when it comes to gorgeous double-pass welding. Even the lower end hybrid frames are handsome. They went into bankruptcy, and were purchased by Dorel, purveyor of Schwinn, Roadmaster, Mongoose, and Iron Horse. Cannondale counted on its bicycle division to generate sufficient cash to fund expansion into other product lines, but it didn't work out that way, and even before that failed attempt at diversification they were doing poorly in bicycles (which was what let to the attempt to diversify in the first place). A few years back you could buy some Cannondale models at Costco at a good price, but not right now. *Anyone who wants to understand the predictable attitude of SMS should read Bob Altemeyer's "The Authoritarians". Explains the hysterical devotion to bull**** and the willingness to lie up a storm in defense of dogma. Very weak. You can't respond with any facts so you come up with that schtick. |
#8
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REI chooses steel, why?
"SMS" wrote in message
... On 30/03/10 10:53 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: They changed to a chrome-moly frame exactly for the "marketing advantage" in terms of product differentiation. An aluminum frame, built for strength and not stupid-lightness, is going to be far more durable than a steel frame... any steel frame. You've been listening to the marketing department at Trek for too long if you believe all that. It's no secret why manufacturers like aluminum frames--they are extremely low cost. Shaving $12-15 off the cost of a complete bicycle is something that can't be passed up since they know, statistically, that few of those bicycles will spend much time out of the garage. The higher-end steel, carbon-fiber, and titanium frames are marketed as expensive boutique items. Of course it wasn't so long ago that Cannondale marketed aluminum frames as an expensive boutique item (and we all know what happened to Cannondale!). Uh.... no. Aluminum frames became dominant in the marketplace long before they became cheaper to build. Once dominant, competitive forces pushed innovation and techniques to lower cost. Had steel remained the dominant material, the same thing would have happened (and steel frames would be dirt-cheap). The overall cost of using an aluminum frame is lower not just due to production, but also reduced likelihood of warranty expenditures down the road. Aluminum frames fail at a markedly-lower rate than the steel frames of yesteryear. Just talk to anyone who worked in a bike shop back in the day. I'm closing in on 39 years in this biz now and have pretty much seen it all. But the extraordinary hype that some people confer on steel remains amazing to me. Especially this one- Weak non-responsive aluminum frame My goodness, are we talking about a racing bike with 19mm tires here? No, this discussion was about a hefty go-anywhere brawler with big wide tires that are going to soak up just about anything that could be considered an aspect of "responsiveness" and yet you just have to lay that ridiculous claim in, yet again. Please tell me how anyone's going to notice much difference in frame material when you've got big squishy tires? --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA |
#9
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REI Greatly Improves Novara Transfer Commute Bicycle. Now hasCro-Mo frame and Adjustable Height Quill Stem and Chain Guard and 700CWheels----20% off Coupon now at REI.
On Mar 31, 5:29*pm, SMS wrote:
On 31/03/10 1:02 PM, landotter wrote: snip There's no evidence that your claims of cost saving are true--just more made up **** from a velo-authoritarian*. If you listen to the audio of the presentation that Sheldon Brown gave to recumbent club, you'll understand the facts regarding cost savings, and how they were responsible. Geez, I didn't think there was _anyone_ that denied that the move to mass-produced aluminum frames was driven by anything other than the incredibly low cost of aluminum. I take it that you posted that with your wooden abacus. I'm impressed! Throw a "lifetime warranty" in (at least on non-mountain bikes) and you've convinced naive buyers that aluminum must be great or else how could the manufacturer offer a warranty like that. Because modern bikes are quite well made? [snip] Very weak. You can't respond with any facts so you come up with that schtick. I've yet to see you provide evidence that the introduction of aluminum bikes upon the mass market has resulted in a terrible increase in frame failure. I'm not the one making big claims here, you are. |
#10
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REI chooses steel, why?
"Mike Jacoubowsky" writes:
"SMS" wrote in message ... On 30/03/10 10:53 PM, Mike Jacoubowsky wrote: They changed to a chrome-moly frame exactly for the "marketing advantage" in terms of product differentiation. An aluminum frame, built for strength and not stupid-lightness, is going to be far more durable than a steel frame... any steel frame. You've been listening to the marketing department at Trek for too long if you believe all that. It's no secret why manufacturers like aluminum frames--they are extremely low cost. Shaving $12-15 off the cost of a complete bicycle is something that can't be passed up since they know, statistically, that few of those bicycles will spend much time out of the garage. The higher-end steel, carbon-fiber, and titanium frames are marketed as expensive boutique items. Of course it wasn't so long ago that Cannondale marketed aluminum frames as an expensive boutique item (and we all know what happened to Cannondale!). Uh.... no. Aluminum frames became dominant in the marketplace long before they became cheaper to build. Once dominant, competitive forces pushed innovation and techniques to lower cost. Had steel remained the dominant material, the same thing would have happened (and steel frames would be dirt-cheap). The overall cost of using an aluminum frame is lower not just due to production, but also reduced likelihood of warranty expenditures down the road. Aluminum frames fail at a markedly-lower rate than the steel frames of yesteryear. Just talk to anyone who worked in a bike shop back in the day. I'm closing in on 39 years in this biz now and have pretty much seen it all. But the extraordinary hype that some people confer on steel remains amazing to me. Especially this one- Weak non-responsive aluminum frame My goodness, are we talking about a racing bike with 19mm tires here? No, this discussion was about a hefty go-anywhere brawler with big wide tires that are going to soak up just about anything that could be considered an aspect of "responsiveness" and yet you just have to lay that ridiculous claim in, yet again. Please tell me how anyone's going to notice much difference in frame material when you've got big squishy tires? --Mike Jacoubowsky Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA Are reputed frame builders like Roberts in the UK wrong to be using quality steels in their touring bike frames then Mike? I really want to know. I just can not believe an Alu frame can ever by stronger and longer lasting than a good steel one. |
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