Whither Pedal Steer II

Thanks for your comments everyone.

I've noticed my SWB ( Lightning Thunderbolt ) wagging
back & forth when slowly climbing hills. Doesn't seem to
matter whether I'm spinning or mashing. I didn't realize it
might have been some form of pedal steer. I just figured it
was the fact that I get wobbly down around 2 or 3 MPH.

Apparently I'll have to ride ( somebody else's ) tadpole and
see how it affects the experience for me. The trike I'm
considering - WhizWheelz TT 3.6 - is definitely not one of
the most expensive breeds, so the pedal steer will probably
be more obvious. I might get to the recumbent rally in the
Detroit area next weekend and see if any trike makers have
demos to try.

One of the things that makes me want to be sure I'll love - not
just "like" - a tadpole is that I'll probably have to sell my beloved
T-Bolt to spend that much money in good conscience.

Thanks again.
Jerry

"Ohio Jerry" wrote in message
...
Thanks for your comments everyone.

I've noticed my SWB ( Lightning Thunderbolt ) wagging
back & forth when slowly climbing hills. Doesn't seem to
matter whether I'm spinning or mashing. I didn't realize it
might have been some form of pedal steer. I just figured it
was the fact that I get wobbly down around 2 or 3 MPH.

You figured right about being wobbly at very slow speeds. It is a universal
for all recumbents except trikes. I find that 3 mph is as slow as I can go
without falling over. You are very skilled to be able to ride at 2 mph. I
wish I could go that slow.

Apparently I'll have to ride ( somebody else's ) tadpole and
see how it affects the experience for me. The trike I'm
considering - WhizWheelz TT 3.6 - is definitely not one of
the most expensive breeds, so the pedal steer will probably
be more obvious. I might get to the recumbent rally in the
Detroit area next weekend and see if any trike makers have
demos to try.

Jerry, WizWheelz has been working on their trikes for a long time now
constantly making improvements every year. It may be that they have the
pedal steer problem minimized as much if not more than other tadpole trikes
which are more expensive. Believe me, when it comes to recumbents, you can
pay more and get less. Be sure to read the review by Bob Bryant of the
TerraTrike 3.6 in RCN 088, May/June 2005.

One of the things that makes me want to be sure I'll love - not
just "like" - a tadpole is that I'll probably have to sell my beloved
T-Bolt to spend that much money in good conscience.

You will most likely not get too much for your T-Bolt. I would keep it if I
were you. Real recumbent enthusiasts always have more than one recumbent.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

Hey again gang -

QUESTION: The side to side motion of a tadpole trike that
results from 'cranking the crank' is usually called 'pedal
steer'. What is the correct term for the instability that
results when a teenager rolls down a steep hill in a shopping
cart?

ANSWER: CRASH!

In Jerry's second attempt to get a handle on tadpole trike
handling, he wrote:

I've noticed my SWB ( Lightning Thunderbolt ) wagging back &
forth when slowly climbing hills... I didn't realize it might
have been some form of pedal steer.

When someone uses a term like 'pedal steer' in posting a
question to an internet forum like this, it seems to trigger a
lot of folks to reiterate rashly subjective opinions, innuendo,
third-hand rumors and perhaps worst of all, conventional wisdom.
Unfortunately, even before the discussion totally goes to HELL
with a series of seemingly unending Clintonesque snipes about
'the meaning of speed', it can be fairly challenging to find any
really useful information that has any relation to even a
marginally analytical discussion of the original question.

My two cents (that assessment assuming that words are cheap):
It's fairly easy to evaluate dynamics for any vehicle in the
same terms that are used for aircraft. It has six degrees of
freedom - linear motion in three perpendicular axes relative to
the vehicle itself, and rotation around those same three axes.
The fact that cycles have one or more tires making rolling
contact with the ground for the most part just helps to
simplify the analysis. You can pretty safely ignore the linear
motion, for example, since as long as its tires are not losing
traction big-time, it only moves in one direction, and that
linear motion is not a big deal for stability. It's the rotation
that needs to be controlled to maintain vehicle stability.

As I said in my original post on this topic, all wheeled
vehicles will exhibit some response to any rapid weight shift
and/or application of force by their occupants - much more so
if the occupant(s) seriously outweigh(s) the vehicle. Thus the
lead-in snippet above about a speeding, uncontrolled shopping
cart. It's even possible to steer some tadpoles hands off, using
small shifts of upper body mass, for example. The one-sided
high-effort linear push of a pedal on ANY cycle - presumably or
at least hopefully the highest level of effort for the rider -
will definitely have some effect, effectively trying to make his
cycle pitch, roll or yaw, depending on its geometry.

The axis of rotation called 'pitch' is where the front goes
up and the rear goes down. Pitch is also not usually a big
concern on road cycles - except maybe for braking endos! A
delta trike with single-sided drive and high rear weight bias
may be able to lift its front wheel on a steep hill enough for
it then to skitter sideways (yaw). The susceptibility of a cycle
to pitch is of course a function of its wheelbase and the
fore to aft placement of its center of gravity (CG).

Roll is the second axis of rotation - where the top of the
vehicle goes left while the bottom goes right, or vice versa.
For a trike, within conservative limits of operation, roll is
almost a trivial concern, since its three-point base keeps it
solidly on the ground. [And please, Ed et al: let's not even
get started on the definition of 'conservative limits'; for
my purposes here, it clearly does not include Fred Lenk's
highly entertaining stunt on his Trice with one front wheel in
the air - while towing a trailer! ;-)] A trike's ultimate roll
susceptibility is affected by its track width and the distance
of the CG from the two-wheeled 'axle'. Since the base of the
cycle is 'fixed' at ground height, the distance of the CG above
ground is also a factor. For optimum tadpole roll stability, a
designer would use a wide track, and a low CG almost on top of
the front crossbeam. For other design considerations (e.g.,
avoiding braking endos, maneuverability, clearing small pebbles
in the path), any rideable tadpole will be based on a series of
practical compromises.

Yaw is the last axis of rotation and that's the motion most
folks think about when they think of pedal steer on a tadpole:
where the front end goes left while the rear goes right or
vice versa. Again, a long wheelbase tends to minimize the effect
of yaw on all cycles. For non-leaning, front steering cycles
(like most conventional tadpoles and deltas) the center of
rotation for yaw will be located on a line perpendicular to the
ground contact point for the rear wheel. In order for the trike
to turn without losing traction the front wheels must steer
slightly. For the same seat-of-the-pants feeling of sideways
acceleration, the steering angle will be much less at higher
speeds, so [Yes, Mr. Dolan!] it is likely, especially if there
is a bit of play in its steering linkage, that pedal steer
will seem more pronounced when a trike is going faster,
especially since it's likely that the rider will be working a
lot harder to maintain his speed.

But... why would a cyclist say (over and over and over again)
[Well, aside from the poster being a self-admitted "bit of a
TROLL" {caps added for emphasis}, I mean? ;-)]:

I have never noticed pedal steer on any kind of two-wheeler,
not like you notice it on a tadpole... I do not notice pedal
steer on any two-wheeler, at least not like I notice it on a
tadpole trike... I can ride all other bikes and trikes easily
without noticing pedal steer - except tadpole trikes... the way
I cycle on a tadpole I am always aware of pedal steer at speed.

Notice my comment above that roll stability depends upon the
track width of the trike? Well, gee guys, guess what? A single
track vehicle (aka bike) has absolutely ZERO inherent roll
stability. Strap three fifty pound sacks of potatos onto the
seat of any bicycle - upright or recumbent, short or long
wheelbase - and see how many tries it takes to get it to stay
upright without external assistance. Bikes absolutely require
constant, carefully coordinated corrections to remain upright,
standing still or 'at speed'.

Imagine a 150-pound, old-fashioned low RPM, long-stroke steam
engine in the seat of a tadpole with its steering locked dead
ahead, and two connecting rods coupled to its crank. When you
fire up the engine the tadpole would roll away, waddling like
a... well, tadpole, exhibiting something at some point that
could be called 'pedal steer'. But... if you put the same engine
on a bike and crank it off the same way, it will simply fall
over, the boiler will explode, and you will have a major mess
filling out all the Environmental Impact Reports and Patent
Infringement litigation paperwork.

The point being that whether the rider is aware of it or not (as
in the obvious case of Mr. Dolan), anytime he is in or on the
seat of a bicycle, pedaling, eating PowerBars or doing anything,
he is constantly making small corrections (e.g., weight shifts,
steering inputs) to keep the bike upright and more or less
headed in whatever general direction he has chosen. The higher
the forces he exerts or the more radical his weight shifts, the
more he has to work to compensate. The precession effect of
spinning wheels, plus proper rake and trail help make a bike a
bit more stable 'at speed' than it is at rest, but ultimately,
without some kind of active intelligent compensation (aka a
rider) any normal bike rolling down the road is ultimately
doomed to go SPLAT!

If a bike with zero rake and trail were a practical design, it
might be possible to minimize the effect of pedaling or whatever
stresses it gets in the yaw axis, but all practical designs that
have the front tire's contact point behind the wheel's center of
rotation will also respond to recumbent pedaling forces by the
whole cycle wanting to swing left and right. If it doesn't, it's
because the combination of geometry and the rider's reactions
and corrections compensate for it. He may not know he's doing
it, he may even insist till he turns blue that he isn't, but
until you see that steam engine cruising straight and steady
down the road, please maintain a high level of skepticism.

But how can it be true that a cyclist is making all these subtle
shifts and tweaks to compensate for his pedaling, yet he isn't
aware he's doing it? Imagine yourself in a big sealed plastic
bag, tossed into a deep pool, with nothing but a bunch of short
stubby whips all around the bag that you can flail back and
forth to get from one end of the pool to the other. Would you get the
hang of it before you ran out of air? Not likely... and
yet a paramecium can manage it nicely, even though it has,
presumably, only one tenth or so the basic intelligence of a
typical TROLL on UseNet. [;-)]

Again, the point being that balancing a bike, contrary to the
(redundantly, repetitively reiterated) claims made in the
original 'Whither Pedal Steer' thread, is in fact neither easy,
nor even an inherent human instinct. It's a process that at some
point in each cyclist's lifetime had to be learned and honed to
the point that for most of us it has become an automatic, almost
subconscious 'muscle response'. Change anything on a bike -
upright to recumbent, ASS to USS, add triathlon bars - and the
first ride is likely to be a waggling, wobbling disaster perfect
for entertaining heartless spectators.

With the current state-of-the-art for reasonably conventional
bicycles, their tire profiles, steering geometry, wheelbase and
CG have been very nicely detail-engineered to make the process
of riding a bicycle as 'natural' as possible. But it is still,
and will always be, not nearly as easy as riding a tadpole trike
within 'conservative limits'. The only reason it may seem that
way is that for most of us who have been riding some kind of a
bike since childhood, riding a tadpole is a new experience,
and to get beyond the basics does take a bit of training. IMHO
learning to ride a trike well is for most conventional bikers
a good bit easier and less intimidating than learning to ride
most recumbent bicycles.

Some cyclists do have trouble 'letting their muscles learn' that
new and different set of tiny shifts and corrections needed to
get the smoothest and best possible performance from a tadpole,
and for some of them it may simply not be worth the effort. As
Mr. Dolan pointed out, for most folks who feel motivated to
ride a tadpole for whatever reason - stability, load carrying
capability, comfort, low-speed uphill grinds or simply FUN! -
it's still more or less a piece of cake to ride the trike slowly
and safely (whatever that means). If a person really wants to
take it a step or two beyond that, it's usually a quick and
non-threatening learning curve.

BOTTOM LINE (IMHO!): So-called pedal steer on almost any current
tadpole is not a huge problem. For most new trikeys, even if you
do experience it, it's likely to be something that you can
master with a bit of willingness to adjust your pedaling style
and a little experience. Plus, even if you do wind up going a
little slower than Johnny's superwhiz speedster, you are very
likely to find that the sheer fun of riding a trike is more than
ample compensation!

Regards,
Wayne

"LoGo USA" wrote in message
oups.com...
[...]
BOTTOM LINE (IMHO!): So-called pedal steer on almost any current
tadpole is not a huge problem. For most new trikeys, even if you
do experience it, it's likely to be something that you can
master with a bit of willingness to adjust your pedaling style
and a little experience. Plus, even if you do wind up going a
little slower than Johnny's superwhiz speedster, you are very
likely to find that the sheer fun of riding a trike is more than
ample compensation!

Regards,
Wayne

It may be that the last word has been written on pedal steer EVER! It is too
bad that Mr. Sherman (an engineer) is not here to appreciate Wayne's post as
I believe he is one of the few who would thoroughly understand and enjoy it.

However pedal steer is explained, it DOES exist! And you notice it more on a
tadpole than you do any other type of bike.

As for me, Mission Accomplished! I post to stimulate discussion and rile up
the group. Isn't that what good trolls are suppose to do. When I encounter a
post like Wayne's that goes way over my head, then I know that ARBR is not
yet dead and there are still a few intelligent souls left on the group.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

It may be that the last word has been written on pedal steer EVER! It is
too
bad that Mr. Sherman (an engineer) is not here to appreciate Wayne's
post as
I believe he is one of the few who would thoroughly understand and
enjoy it.

However pedal steer is explained, it DOES exist! And you notice it more
on a
tadpole than you do any other type of bike.

As for me, Mission Accomplished! I post to stimulate discussion and
rile up
the group. Isn't that what good trolls are suppose to do. When I
encounter a
post like Wayne's that goes way over my head, then I know that ARBR is
not
yet dead and there are still a few intelligent souls left on the
group.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota
Tom and Wayne have common ground in that they are both trained in the
same field.Wayne Imports the logo trike from down under.LoGo Trikes USA
along with 3-2-Go trike store can supply a high quality sports touring
adult recumbent trike.


--
nget

"LoGo USA" wrote in message
oups.com...
Hey again gang -

QUESTION: The side to side motion of a tadpole trike that
results from 'cranking the crank' is usually called 'pedal
steer'. What is the correct term for the instability that
results when a teenager rolls down a steep hill in a shopping
cart?

ANSWER: CRASH!

In Jerry's second attempt to get a handle on tadpole trike
handling, he wrote:

I've noticed my SWB ( Lightning Thunderbolt ) wagging back &
forth when slowly climbing hills... I didn't realize it might
have been some form of pedal steer.

When someone uses a term like 'pedal steer' in posting a
question to an internet forum like this, it seems to trigger a
lot of folks to reiterate rashly subjective opinions, innuendo,
third-hand rumors and perhaps worst of all, conventional wisdom.
Unfortunately, even before the discussion totally goes to HELL
with a series of seemingly unending Clintonesque snipes about
'the meaning of speed', it can be fairly challenging to find any
really useful information that has any relation to even a
marginally analytical discussion of the original question.

Newsgroups like ARBR are for ordinary conversations about ordinary
experiences that people have with their bicycles. But experts are welcome
here too provided they do not go on and on at too great a length. After all,
our attention spans are limited.

My two cents (that assessment assuming that words are cheap):
It's fairly easy to evaluate dynamics for any vehicle in the
same terms that are used for aircraft. It has six degrees of
freedom - linear motion in three perpendicular axes relative to
the vehicle itself, and rotation around those same three axes.
The fact that cycles have one or more tires making rolling
contact with the ground for the most part just helps to
simplify the analysis. You can pretty safely ignore the linear
motion, for example, since as long as its tires are not losing
traction big-time, it only moves in one direction, and that
linear motion is not a big deal for stability. It's the rotation
that needs to be controlled to maintain vehicle stability.

As I said in my original post on this topic, all wheeled
vehicles will exhibit some response to any rapid weight shift
and/or application of force by their occupants - much more so
if the occupant(s) seriously outweigh(s) the vehicle. Thus the
lead-in snippet above about a speeding, uncontrolled shopping
cart. It's even possible to steer some tadpoles hands off, using
small shifts of upper body mass, for example. The one-sided
high-effort linear push of a pedal on ANY cycle - presumably or
at least hopefully the highest level of effort for the rider -
will definitely have some effect, effectively trying to make his
cycle pitch, roll or yaw, depending on its geometry.

Most trike riders are nothing if not potted plants and there is not much
body movement going on other than pedaling. I never pedal hard under any
circumstances. That is what gears are for, so you do not have to pedal hard.

The axis of rotation called 'pitch' is where the front goes
up and the rear goes down. Pitch is also not usually a big
concern on road cycles - except maybe for braking endos! A
delta trike with single-sided drive and high rear weight bias
may be able to lift its front wheel on a steep hill enough for
it then to skitter sideways (yaw). The susceptibility of a cycle
to pitch is of course a function of its wheelbase and the
fore to aft placement of its center of gravity (CG).

A long delta that is also fairly heavy will have absolutely no pedal steer
at all.

Roll is the second axis of rotation - where the top of the
vehicle goes left while the bottom goes right, or vice versa.
For a trike, within conservative limits of operation, roll is
almost a trivial concern, since its three-point base keeps it
solidly on the ground. [And please, Ed et al: let's not even
get started on the definition of 'conservative limits'; for
my purposes here, it clearly does not include Fred Lenk's
highly entertaining stunt on his Trice with one front wheel in
the air - while towing a trailer! ;-)] A trike's ultimate roll
susceptibility is affected by its track width and the distance
of the CG from the two-wheeled 'axle'. Since the base of the
cycle is 'fixed' at ground height, the distance of the CG above
ground is also a factor. For optimum tadpole roll stability, a
designer would use a wide track, and a low CG almost on top of
the front crossbeam. For other design considerations (e.g.,
avoiding braking endos, maneuverability, clearing small pebbles
in the path), any rideable tadpole will be based on a series of
practical compromises.

I never do tricks on my trikes!

Yaw is the last axis of rotation and that's the motion most
folks think about when they think of pedal steer on a tadpole:
where the front end goes left while the rear goes right or
vice versa. Again, a long wheelbase tends to minimize the effect
of yaw on all cycles. For non-leaning, front steering cycles
(like most conventional tadpoles and deltas) the center of
rotation for yaw will be located on a line perpendicular to the
ground contact point for the rear wheel. In order for the trike
to turn without losing traction the front wheels must steer
slightly. For the same seat-of-the-pants feeling of sideways
acceleration, the steering angle will be much less at higher
speeds, so [Yes, Mr. Dolan!] it is likely, especially if there
is a bit of play in its steering linkage, that pedal steer
will seem more pronounced when a trike is going faster,
especially since it's likely that the rider will be working a
lot harder to maintain his speed.

Whew! It was rough going but we are finally getting somewhere. In other
words, we are only concerned with yaw. I do note that my Kett Wiesel delta
trike does have some pedal steer whereas my Coos Bay Flyer has none. I
attribute this, based on your explanation above, to the light weight of the
one and the heavy weight of the other. And my deltas have much less pedal
steer due to their long wheel base than does my tadpole which has a short
wheel base. Isn't this what I have been saying all along. It is why I am
such an advocate of LWB.

But... why would a cyclist say (over and over and over again)
[Well, aside from the poster being a self-admitted "bit of a
TROLL" {caps added for emphasis}, I mean? ;-)]:

I have never noticed pedal steer on any kind of two-wheeler,
not like you notice it on a tadpole... I do not notice pedal
steer on any two-wheeler, at least not like I notice it on a
tadpole trike... I can ride all other bikes and trikes easily
without noticing pedal steer - except tadpole trikes... the way
I cycle on a tadpole I am always aware of pedal steer at speed.

Notice my comment above that roll stability depends upon the
track width of the trike? Well, gee guys, guess what? A single
track vehicle (aka bike) has absolutely ZERO inherent roll
stability. Strap three fifty pound sacks of potatos onto the
seat of any bicycle - upright or recumbent, short or long
wheelbase - and see how many tries it takes to get it to stay
upright without external assistance. Bikes absolutely require
constant, carefully coordinated corrections to remain upright,
standing still or 'at speed'.

Imagine a 150-pound, old-fashioned low RPM, long-stroke steam
engine in the seat of a tadpole with its steering locked dead
ahead, and two connecting rods coupled to its crank. When you
fire up the engine the tadpole would roll away, waddling like
a... well, tadpole, exhibiting something at some point that
could be called 'pedal steer'. But... if you put the same engine
on a bike and crank it off the same way, it will simply fall
over, the boiler will explode, and you will have a major mess
filling out all the Environmental Impact Reports and Patent
Infringement litigation paperwork.

The point being that whether the rider is aware of it or not (as
in the obvious case of Mr. Dolan), anytime he is in or on the
seat of a bicycle, pedaling, eating PowerBars or doing anything,
he is constantly making small corrections (e.g., weight shifts,
steering inputs) to keep the bike upright and more or less
headed in whatever general direction he has chosen. The higher
the forces he exerts or the more radical his weight shifts, the
more he has to work to compensate. The precession effect of
spinning wheels, plus proper rake and trail help make a bike a
bit more stable 'at speed' than it is at rest, but ultimately,
without some kind of active intelligent compensation (aka a
rider) any normal bike rolling down the road is ultimately
doomed to go SPLAT!

All of the above is assumed and is not being questioned by anyone, least of
all cyclists. We are concerning ourselves here with why pedal steer is
noticeable on a tadpole trike whereas it is not noticeable on any other kind
of bike.

If a bike with zero rake and trail were a practical design, it
might be possible to minimize the effect of pedaling or whatever
stresses it gets in the yaw axis, but all practical designs that
have the front tire's contact point behind the wheel's center of
rotation will also respond to recumbent pedaling forces by the
whole cycle wanting to swing left and right. If it doesn't, it's
because the combination of geometry and the rider's reactions
and corrections compensate for it. He may not know he's doing
it, he may even insist till he turns blue that he isn't, but
until you see that steam engine cruising straight and steady
down the road, please maintain a high level of skepticism.

In other words, pedal steer exists if a human being is pedaling the
confounded thing. Maybe the manufacturers and reviewers could be a little
more honest about pedal steer instead of minimizing it and/or telling us
that it does not exist.

But how can it be true that a cyclist is making all these subtle
shifts and tweaks to compensate for his pedaling, yet he isn't
aware he's doing it? Imagine yourself in a big sealed plastic
bag, tossed into a deep pool, with nothing but a bunch of short
stubby whips all around the bag that you can flail back and
forth to get from one end of the pool to the other. Would you get the
hang of it before you ran out of air? Not likely... and
yet a paramecium can manage it nicely, even though it has,
presumably, only one tenth or so the basic intelligence of a
typical TROLL on UseNet. [;-)]

But a paramecium cannot ride a bicycle, can it? Nor can it post to Usenet
going on and on about something that every cyclist knows and practices
subconsciously, if not consciously.

Again, the point being that balancing a bike, contrary to the
(redundantly, repetitively reiterated) claims made in the
original 'Whither Pedal Steer' thread, is in fact neither easy,
nor even an inherent human instinct. It's a process that at some
point in each cyclist's lifetime had to be learned and honed to
the point that for most of us it has become an automatic, almost
subconscious 'muscle response'. Change anything on a bike -
upright to recumbent, ASS to USS, add triathlon bars - and the
first ride is likely to be a waggling, wobbling disaster perfect
for entertaining heartless spectators.

With the current state-of-the-art for reasonably conventional
bicycles, their tire profiles, steering geometry, wheelbase and
CG have been very nicely detail-engineered to make the process
of riding a bicycle as 'natural' as possible. But it is still,
and will always be, not nearly as easy as riding a tadpole trike
within 'conservative limits'. The only reason it may seem that
way is that for most of us who have been riding some kind of a
bike since childhood, riding a tadpole is a new experience,
and to get beyond the basics does take a bit of training. IMHO
learning to ride a trike well is for most conventional bikers
a good bit easier and less intimidating than learning to ride
most recumbent bicycles.

Everyone can ride a trike, but not necessarily ride it well, especially if
it has lots of pedal steer.

By the way, the conventional upright bike is a perfected design (unlike all
recumbents) and once learned it is mastered and ridden well by nearly
everyone. The only downside to the upright bike is it is uncomfortable. That
is why we are all into recumbents here on this group.

Some cyclists do have trouble 'letting their muscles learn' that
new and different set of tiny shifts and corrections needed to
get the smoothest and best possible performance from a tadpole,
and for some of them it may simply not be worth the effort. As
Mr. Dolan pointed out, for most folks who feel motivated to
ride a tadpole for whatever reason - stability, load carrying
capability, comfort, low-speed uphill grinds or simply FUN! -
it's still more or less a piece of cake to ride the trike slowly
and safely (whatever that means). If a person really wants to
take it a step or two beyond that, it's usually a quick and
non-threatening learning curve.

I am convinced that many can never learn to ride a tadpole comfortably at
speed because of the pedal steer problem.

BOTTOM LINE (IMHO!): So-called pedal steer on almost any current
tadpole is not a huge problem. For most new trikeys, even if you
do experience it, it's likely to be something that you can
master with a bit of willingness to adjust your pedaling style
and a little experience. Plus, even if you do wind up going a
little slower than Johnny's superwhiz speedster, you are very
likely to find that the sheer fun of riding a trike is more than
ample compensation!

Regards,
Wayne

An excellent post by Wayne which should be read by all cyclists. I had only
a vague idea that riding a bike was as complicated as I now know it to be.
Beware of that yaw!

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota

"nget" wrote in message
...
[...]
Tom and Wayne have common ground in that they are both trained in the
same field.Wayne Imports the logo trike from down under.LoGo Trikes USA
along with 3-2-Go trike store can supply a high quality sports touring
adult recumbent trike.
--
nget

Thanks Nget as I am sure the whole group is curious about Wayne. But we
still need to know how he got to be such a great poet.

Ed Dolan the Great - Minnesota