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A March on Washington... on Bicycle?



 
 
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  #131  
Old November 21st 08, 08:14 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
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Posts: 4,852
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

KingOfTheApes wrote:

Are you watching too many American shows? That may account for an
excess in SUVs and gated communities.

They are here everywhere, so they must mean something.


It means they're a popular fashion accessory, not that you're living in
a jungle. I used to date a US resident and visited many times so my
outlook on the country isn't entirely confined to TV.

"about the EU and gated communities. I have not seen one."


So you didn't bother with the fact that I live around the corner from one?

find... What I notice.. No trailer parks.. Trailer parks are often sub
income and in a state of squalor.. It's rare to find such an invention
thourghout the EU..


Instead you get much more in the way of traveller communities (aka
gypsies), effectively the same but the trailers remain mobile and move
from place to place. AFAICT far more of that in the EU than in the US.

Why. For the most part, you go to the biggest
towns we have extensively walked about town centers and not felt
unsafe. Places such as Barcelona, you might find your pockets picked,
but you are safe. So why a need for gated communities."


The need is perception over reality. Not entirely unlike the need for
bike paths, in that respect.

Town centres is one think, sink areas in suburbs quite another. I can
take you places in most towns in the UK where you won't feel safe. I
wouldn't do that, simply because I wouldn't feel safe either.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
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  #132  
Old November 21st 08, 06:20 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
KingOfTheApes
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Posts: 1,468
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 21, 3:14*am, Peter Clinch wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
Are you watching too many American shows? That may account for an
excess in SUVs and gated communities.


They are here everywhere, so they must mean something.


It means they're a popular fashion accessory, not that you're living in
a jungle. *I used to date a US resident and visited many times so my
outlook on the country isn't entirely confined to TV.


Well, again, you may have visited only the beautiful areas.


"about the EU and gated communities. I have not seen one."


So you didn't bother with the fact that I live around the corner from one?


I'm not saying you are lying, but the UK is NOT continental Europe,
and there seems to be a lot of resistance to the EU.

Is my friend lying?


find... What I notice.. No trailer parks.. Trailer parks are often sub
income and in a state of squalor.. It's rare to find such an invention
thourghout the EU..


Instead you get much more in the way of traveller communities (aka
gypsies), effectively the same but the trailers remain mobile and move
from place to place. *AFAICT far more of that in the EU than in the US.

Why. For the most part, you go to the biggest
towns we have extensively walked about town centers and not felt
unsafe. Places such as Barcelona, you might find your pockets picked,
but you are safe. So why a need for gated communities."


The need is perception over reality. *Not entirely unlike the need for
bike paths, in that respect.


So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...

Book Review: Economic Apartheid in America

A startling new book by co-founders of United for a Fair Economy
highlights the downfalls of an economic boom that has left millions of
Americans behind.

SocialFunds.com -- Concern about the South African practice of
apartheid, forced segregation and discrimination against the black
majority, sparked the growth of socially responsible investing in the
1970s and 1980s. A new book raises the specter of apartheid closer to
home in the U.S., only this time the inequality is not based on race,
but on income.

http://www.socialfunds.com/news/arti...fArticleId=342


Town centres is one think, sink areas in suburbs quite another. *I can
take you places in most towns in the UK where you won't feel safe. *I
wouldn't do that, simply because I wouldn't feel safe either.


Are the authorities so vigilant as they are toward terrorism? Perhaps
they don't care, huh?
  #133  
Old November 22nd 08, 05:23 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Tom Keats
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,193
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

In article ,
Peter Clinch writes:

Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.


Drivers taking to bikes doesn't necessarily change attitudes.
I think a lot of sidewalk riders are erstwhile drivers who
used to yell: "Get on the [expletive] sidewalk" at adjacent
cyclists. Drivers freshly upon bicycles will bring drivers'
attitudes, P'sOV and styles to bear.

They will behave as they previously desired & expected
cyclists to behave, thinking they're doing the right things.
It'll take them a while for them to realize they've
been humbled.

It'll take a while longer for them to realize they haven't
been humbled at all.

It'll take even longer for them to realize that while they
haven't be humbled, they haven't necessarily been exalted --
they're just people among many, on the streets & roads of
the world.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
  #134  
Old November 22nd 08, 10:25 AM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Peter Clinch
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 4,852
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

KingOfTheApes wrote:

I'm not saying you are lying, but the UK is NOT continental Europe,
and there seems to be a lot of resistance to the EU.

Is my friend lying?


I am saying you are confusing anecdotal data with useful statistical
data. You quote anecdotes to support what you say, but my point in
pushing an anecdote back is to show you anecdotes don't realluy mean
much. But you appear to rely on them. "Here is a web log saying
someone thinks such and such, so that proves it!" It doesn't.

The need is perception over reality. Not entirely unlike the need for
bike paths, in that respect.


So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...


er, what? I never said anything like that, so don't jump to such a
conclusion. I said the /need/ for geted communities is largely one of
perception. Which is nothing to do with economic apartheid.

You really do need to stop and read what people write, rather than just
ignoring what they write and printing something irrelevant you happen to
want to say as an "answer".

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/
  #135  
Old November 22nd 08, 06:18 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Tom Keats
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,193
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

In article ,
Peter Clinch writes:
KingOfTheApes wrote:


So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...


er, what? I never said anything like that, so don't jump to such a
conclusion. I said the /need/ for geted communities is largely one of
perception. Which is nothing to do with economic apartheid.

You really do need to stop and read what people write, rather than just
ignoring what they write and printing something irrelevant you happen to
want to say as an "answer".



Hello Peter :-)

Your debating adversary shall not heed your advice,
for he is an anti-bicycling (upon public roads and
streets) propagandist, through and through.

I'm sure he does stop and read what people write/say,
but changing the subject is one of his favourite
tactics.

It is futile to discuss his remarks & statements
at the ostensible level. That just provides him
with opportunities to spew more propaganda. I
suggest aiming straight for the (metaphorical)
heart or the brain.

Commandant Klink here is simply out to dissuade people
from riding upon public streets & roads and thereby
requiring of drivers the effort of thought. His
strategy is to frighten bicyclists "out of the ways"
of drivers such as himself. It is time to deal with
him at a strategic rather than a tactical level.

Any effort to dumb-down operating a motor vehicle
is pernicious. But that is his ultimate goal.
His posting history proves that.

Beware the fifth column.


cheers,
Tom
--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
  #136  
Old November 22nd 08, 07:18 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Tom Keats
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,193
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

In article ,
Jens Müller writes:
Tom Keats schrieb:
In article ,
writes:
On Nov 16, 1:08 pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:

You can't dumb down a neighbourhood -- too much
soap opera drama goin' on.
I like that interpretation.

With that in mind I'm a huge fan of these stylish big double chevron
sharrows that are being installed in several cities. Encourage these
neighbors to really get to know each other.


Yeah, that sort of works. Except here in Vancouver
there are very many traffic-engineering attempts to
accomodate non-motorized traffic, and sometimes they
conflict with each other. For example, we recently had
sharrows installed along our Main Street. But at the
same time, we have these pedestrian's sidewalk bulges
at intersections. So from a rider's POV you're just
riding along in a straight line in the safe zone, and
suddenly the curb juts out at you, and you're squeezed
between the motorized traffic and the curb.



"safe zone"? If there is a sharrow, you would be before or after a car
in a sequential queue, when riding properly. So how could you be
"squeezed between the motorized traffic and the curb".


On Vancouver's Main Street, these intersection sidewalk bulges
jut out into the outside lane, thereby narrowing it. They
narrow the outside (parking) lane almost twice as much as
the parked cars do. A rider often has a long vehicle such as
a bus or semi beside him/her, or just a big, long flow of cars,
so moving into the adjacent inside lane is obviated, and your
intentions to do so are instantaneously pre-emtped. Don'cha
just hate being instantaneously pre-empted? That always happens
at intersections. It's a Murphy's (Jenkinson's) Law thing.
It's how life goes. Unfortunately. But that's what we're
stuck with.

Here's what our sidewalk intersection bulges look like:
http://vancouver.ca/ENGSVCS/streets/admin/improvements/improvementTypes/bulges.htm

I guess I'm making Vancouver's Main St sound ugly and dreadful.
But it isn't. It really is quite navigable, and one of our
best arterials upon which to ride. But it's a testing ground
for civic engineers/planners/designers. There will come a day
when Main St is absolutely perfect. Then some engineer/planner/
designer will come along, add something more, and ruin everything.

I live in an area where so many experts are striving to
determine what works best for everybody.

I'm shrug blessed, I suppose. Along with everyone else
on Main St.


cheers,
Tom

--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
  #137  
Old November 23rd 08, 04:32 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
ComandanteBanana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,097
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 22, 12:23*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Peter Clinch writes:



Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.


Drivers taking to bikes doesn't necessarily change attitudes.
I think a lot of sidewalk riders are erstwhile drivers who
used to yell: "Get on the [expletive] sidewalk" at adjacent
cyclists. *Drivers freshly upon bicycles will bring drivers'
attitudes, P'sOV and styles to bear.

They will behave as they previously desired & expected
cyclists to behave, thinking they're doing the right things.
It'll take them a while for them to realize they've
been humbled.

It'll take a while longer for them to realize they haven't
been humbled at all.

It'll take even longer for them to realize that while they
haven't be humbled, they haven't necessarily been exalted --
they're just people among many, on the streets & roads of
the world.



Either you are very DEEP, or you don't make sense at all. OK, I'll
give you the benefit of the doubt, but what makes people ride
sidewalks is how deadly roads are --or how they are perceived to be.
But PERCEPTION IS REALITY, and nobody's doing a thing to change that
perception, nor are the authorities cracking down on reckless drivers
who terrorize cyclists.

So what do you expect, cyclists to be stupid enough to ride among
predatory drivers?
  #138  
Old November 23rd 08, 04:37 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
ComandanteBanana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,097
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 22, 5:25*am, Peter Clinch wrote:
KingOfTheApes wrote:
I'm not saying you are lying, but the UK is NOT continental Europe,
and there seems to be a lot of resistance to the EU.


Is my friend lying?


I am saying you are confusing anecdotal data with useful statistical
data. *You quote anecdotes to support what you say, but my point in
pushing an anecdote back is to show you anecdotes don't realluy mean
much. *But you appear to rely on them. *"Here is a web log saying
someone thinks such and such, so that proves it!" *It doesn't.


I see, a definite connection. You live in Colombia, you need gated
communities, you live in the UK or Europe, you don't, and you live in
America, it's kind of in-between. In other words, the more civilized
the society is, the less need for gated communities. Never saw any in
Oslo or Canary Islands.


The need is perception over reality. *Not entirely unlike the need for
bike paths, in that respect.


So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...


er, what? *I never said anything like that, so don't jump to such a
conclusion. *I said the /need/ for geted communities is largely one of
perception. *Which is nothing to do with economic apartheid.

You really do need to stop and read what people write, rather than just
ignoring what they write and printing something irrelevant you happen to
want to say as an "answer".


Perception is reality, and reality makes perception.

I'm sure you too have perceptions about life in Haiti, for example.
  #139  
Old November 23rd 08, 04:42 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
ComandanteBanana
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,097
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

On Nov 22, 1:18*pm, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Peter Clinch writes:

KingOfTheApes wrote:
So Economic Apartheid is not a reality in America. Funny, there's even
a book on the subject...


er, what? *I never said anything like that, so don't jump to such a
conclusion. *I said the /need/ for geted communities is largely one of
perception. *Which is nothing to do with economic apartheid.


You really do need to stop and read what people write, rather than just
ignoring what they write and printing something irrelevant you happen to
want to say as an "answer".


Hello Peter :-)

Your debating adversary shall not heed your advice,
for he is an anti-bicycling (upon public roads and
streets) propagandist, through and through.

I'm sure he does stop and read what people write/say,
but changing the subject is one of his favourite
tactics.

It is futile to discuss his remarks & statements
at the ostensible level. *That just provides him
with opportunities to spew more propaganda. *I
suggest aiming straight for the (metaphorical)
heart or the brain.

Commandant Klink here is simply out to dissuade people
from riding upon public streets & roads and thereby
requiring of drivers the effort of thought. *His
strategy is to frighten bicyclists "out of the ways"
of drivers such as himself. *It is time to deal with
him at a strategic rather than a tactical level.

Any effort to dumb-down operating a motor vehicle
is pernicious. *But that is his ultimate goal.
His posting history proves that.


Tom, I'm saying the WHOLE SYSTEM, down to the lack of space for
cyclists and up to the gated communities, hints at a jungle where only
the strongest survive.

You get it, or playing dumb?

Read this and see my solutions to this jungle...

(Yes, bike facilities are in the program)

COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE

"Communism forgets that life is individual. Capitalism forgets that
life is social, and the kingdom of brotherhood is found neither in the
thesis of communism nor the antithesis of capitalism but in a higher
synthesis. It is found in a higher synthesis that combines the truths
of both." -M.L. King

A PROGRAM FOR A BETTER WORLD

Why not build a new system? That offers PROSPERITY, SOCIAL JUSTICE and
FREEDOM; that discards the defects of both Communism and Capitalism;
and that places the system at the service of the human being, and not
the other way around. Why not HUMANISM?

Naturally, education and healthcare should be the maximum priorities;
they should be free --or low cost, in the case of higher education--
and accessible to all. Likewise, culture and sports should have a high
priority. The needs of women and children should receive special
attention (for example, adopting the affordable daycares; in general,
we would have much to learn from the Scandinavian model, though our
policy should emphasize that of "teaching them how fish," not of
"giving them the fish"). A POLITICAL AND ECONOMIC DEMOCRACY, that
includes competition and cooperation, would create a healthy
competition, and it would allow to satisfy the material and human
needs of all. (In this way, the cooperatives would have to be
efficient, while the capitalist enterprises would have to be more
humane; we would have much to learn from the Israeli kibbutz [non-
profit cooperatives]; and from the industrial cooperatives of
Mondragon, in the Basque Country [a "workers capitalism"].) We should
seek full employment (for instance, by creating jobs in the
construction of the transportation infrastructure, and a 30 hour
workweek should be enough). Public transportation should be A1. (The
city of Curitiba, in Brazil, offers us a functional model of
transportation; bicycle lanes should be implemented along all major
streets.) Our roads, where the Law of the Jungle rules, should be made
safer, say by enforcing passing on the left only. The homeless, who
have been pushed into our better parks, should be incorporated into
light but necessary duties, say picking up litter in exchange for
shared apartments and a minimum wage --there should be no homeless.
(Again, Curitiba is a model on this.) Junk food should have a warning
label (just like cigarettes), particularly the one destined to
children, and also be taxed to subsidize healthy alternatives. Housing
should be available at popular prices. (Prefabricated multifamily
units can help accomplish this; the movement of "New Urbanism" can
provide them with a sense of community and quality of life, say by
having abundant green areas.) Public corruption should be treated as
"public enemy No.1." TV and radio should be independent of Big
Business and the State. (This is due to two reasons: culturally,
because the ratings make bad programs become "good"... for business;
and, politically, because whoever has power over the media... will be
in power; however, people should be able to watch anything on video
and cable; the BBC offers us and example of an independent media.) The
"Free Press" should be democratized, so that, among other things, the
censorship of the opinions of the public is eradicated. Politicians
should live in the worst of the area they represent, so they know its
problems. And politics should become cheaper to avoid its control by
powerful groups (for example, offering free time on TV to the
candidates; we would have much to learn from the political model of
Switzerland [in particular, its political decentralization and its
opportunity to "vote with your feet" between cantons]). Nevertheless,
we should never follow neither anything nor anyone blindly. And, of
course, everything can be improved. Something to think about: While
the prohibition of drugs has been largely ineffective and costly (in
money, prison overpopulation, crime), regulated legalization --like
that of Holland-- can be a better solution to both addiction and
crime. And living free from fear of crime should be treated as a basic
need of society. The final form of this system would be determined by
the acceptance of the people themselves: Each and everyone of these
proposals should be submitted to referendum. And, the basis of
everything else: We should learn to live, not FROM, but WITH Nature.
This would amount to COMING OUT OF THE JUNGLE…


  #140  
Old November 23rd 08, 08:38 PM posted to alt.rec.bicycles.recumbent,rec.bicycles.misc,rec.bicycles.soc,rec.bicycles.rides,uk.rec.cycling
Tom Keats
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 3,193
Default I am convinced bicycling is not safe

In article ,
ComandanteBanana writes:
On Nov 22, 12:23*am, (Tom Keats) wrote:
In article ,
* * * * Peter Clinch writes:



Though I suspect the most important driver of changing attitudes
will be the price if fuel going up, as that puts more peple on bikes.


Drivers taking to bikes doesn't necessarily change attitudes.
I think a lot of sidewalk riders are erstwhile drivers who
used to yell: "Get on the [expletive] sidewalk" at adjacent
cyclists. *Drivers freshly upon bicycles will bring drivers'
attitudes, P'sOV and styles to bear.

They will behave as they previously desired & expected
cyclists to behave, thinking they're doing the right things.
It'll take them a while for them to realize they've
been humbled.

It'll take a while longer for them to realize they haven't
been humbled at all.

It'll take even longer for them to realize that while they
haven't be humbled, they haven't necessarily been exalted --
they're just people among many, on the streets & roads of
the world.

Either you are very DEEP, or you don't make sense at all. OK, I'll
give you the benefit of the doubt, but what makes people ride
sidewalks is how deadly roads are --or how they are perceived to be.


You just love to scare riders off the roads.
That's your goal, your objective.
Matthew 7:16

But PERCEPTION IS REALITY, and nobody's doing a thing to change that

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Sometimes you're almost funny.

perception, nor are the authorities cracking down on reckless drivers
who terrorize cyclists.
So what do you expect, cyclists to be stupid enough to ride among
predatory drivers?


Your propaganda rhetoric is so ridiculously over the top.

But keep trying. You no doubt will, anyway.

http://bicyclesafe.com/
http://www.dot.state.pa.us/BIKE/WEB/safety.htm
http://bccc.bc.ca/bikesafety/index.htm


--
Nothing is safe from me.
I'm really at:
tkeats curlicue vcn dot bc dot ca
 




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